1 NO. 90-CI-6033 JEFFERSON CIRCUIT COURT DIVISION ONE (1) 2 3 JOYCE FENTRESS, ET AL. PLAINTIFFS 4 5 VS. DEPOSITION FOR PLAINTIFFS 6 7 SHEA COMMUNICATIONS, ET AL. DEFENDANTS 8 * * * * * * * * * * 9 10 DEPONENT: GARY L. TAUSCHER 11 DATE: DECEMBER 14, 1993 12 13 * * * * * * * * * * 14 15 16 REPORTER: KATHY NOLD 17 18 KENTUCKIANA REPORTERS SUITE 260 19 730 WEST MAIN STREET LOUISVILLE, KENTUCKY 40202 Page 1 1 * * * * * * * * * * 2 3 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF INDIANA 4 INDIANAPOLIS DIVISION 5 IN RE ELI LILLY AND COMPANY ) Prozac Products Liability ) MDL Docket No. 907 6 Litigation ) 7 * * * * * * * * * * 8 NO. 91-02496-A 9 JACKIE LYNN BIFFLE, ET AL ) IN THE DISTRICT ) COURT OF 10 V. ) DALLAS COUNTY, TEXAS ) 11 ELI LILLY & COMPANY AND ) 14TH JUDICIAL DISTA PRODUCTS COMPANY ) DISTRICT 12 * * * * * * * * * * 13 SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA 14 FOR THE COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES 15 DR. MARIUS SAINES, etc., et al., ) Case No: 16 ) SC 008331 Plaintiffs, ) 17 ) vs. ) 18 ) ELI LILLY & COMPANY, a corporation; ) 19 DISTA PRODUCTS COMPANY, a division ) of Eli Lilly & Company; and DOBS 1- ) 20 100, inclusive, ) ) 21 Defendants. ) ____________________________________) 22 23 * * * * * * * * * * Page 2 1 THE DEPOSITION OF GARY L. TAUSCHER TAKEN AT 2 THE OFFICE OF BAKER & DANIELS, 300 NORTH MERIDIAN 3 STREET, SUITE 2700, INDIANAPOLIS, INDIANA 46204, 4 ON DECEMBER 14, 1993; SAID DEPOSITION TAKEN 5 PURSUANT TO NOTICE IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE RULES 6 OF CIVIL PROCEDURE. 7 * * * * * * * * * * 8 A P P E A R A N C E S 9 NANCY ZETTLER 10 COUNSEL FOR PLAINTIFFS LEONARD M. RING AND ASSOCIATES, P.C. 11 111 WEST WASHINGTON AVENUE, SUITE 1333 CHICAGO, ILLINOIS 60602 12 LAWRENCE J. MYERS 13 COUNSEL FOR ELI LILLY AND COMPANY FREEMAN & HAWKINS 14 4000 ONE PEACHTREE CENTER 303 PEACHTREE STREET, N.E. 15 ATLANTA, GEORGIA 30308-3243 16 MARGARET M. HUFF ELI LILLY AND COMPANY 17 LILLY CORPORATE CENTER INDIANAPOLIS, INDIANA 46285 18 BENJAMIN E. PATTERSON 19 COUNSEL FOR DEFENDANTS CZECHOWICZ, FINK, BRUINSMA CLAUSEN MILLER GORMAN CAFFREY & WITOUS 20 10 SOUTH LASALLE CHICAGO, ILLINOIS 60603 Page 3 1 I N D E X 2 3 DEPOSITION OF GARY L. TAUSCHER 4 5 DIRECT EXAMINATIONBY MS. ZETTLER 5 6 7 CERTIFICATE 269 8 ERRATA 270 9 10 EXHIBITS 11 PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT NO. 1 127 12 PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT NO. 2 147 13 PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT NO. 3 160 14 PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT NO. 4 165 15 PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT NO. 5 171 16 PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT NO. 6 174 17 PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT NO. 7 178 18 PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT NO. 8 208 19 Page 4 1 2 COMES GARY TAUSCHER, CALLED BY THE 3 PLAINTIFFS, AND AFTER FIRST BEING DULY SWORN, WAS 4 DEPOSED AND TESTIFIED AS FOLLOWS: 5 DIRECT EXAMINATION 6 BY MS. ZETTLER: 7 Q. Is it Mister or Doctor 8 Tauscher? 9 A. Mister. 10 Q. Mister Tauscher, my name is 11 Nancy Zettler. I introduced myself briefly a 12 couple minutes ago. I represent a group of 13 plaintiffs in an action called Fentress versus 14 Shea Communications in Louisville, Kentucky. 15 It's a case that's stemming from the Wesbecker 16 shootings in September, 1989. Are you familiar 17 with that incident? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Can you state your full name 20 for the record, please. 21 A. Gary L. Tauscher. 22 MS. ZETTLER: Let the record reflect 23 that this is the discovery deposition of Gary 24 Tauscher taken pursuant to notice and pursuant to Page 5 1 all applicable state -- Kentucky state court 2 rulings. 3 MR. MYERS: It's also -- there is a 4 cross notice in the multi-district proceedings as 5 well. Our position, is this is also governed by 6 the federal rule and whatever applicable orders 7 are in place in both the Kentucky and 8 multi-district court. 9 MS. ZETTLER: And your usual position 10 on that. 11 MR. MYERS: Sure. 12 Q. Have you ever given a 13 deposition before, Mister Tauscher? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. In what case did you give a 16 deposition? Let me start this way, how many 17 times have you given a deposition? 18 A. This will be the fourth time. 19 Q. And the other three times that 20 you've given a deposition, has that been for 21 personal matters or is that related to work? 22 A. It's been related to work. 23 Q. And when I say related to work 24 I mean your employment at Eli Lilly? Page 6 1 A. That's correct. 2 Q. When is the first time that 3 you gave a deposition? 4 A. I believe it was a year ago. 5 Q. Is that in connection with the 6 Prozac litigation? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Where was that deposition 9 taken? 10 A. In Los Angeles. 11 Q. Do you remember the name of 12 the lawsuit that the deposition was taken in? 13 A. No, I do not. 14 Q. Do you remember the name of 15 the lawyer that took the deposition? 16 A. No, I do not. 17 MR. MYERS: He'll probably remember 18 your name after today. Hopefully, it will be a 19 more memorable experience. 20 MS. ZETTLER: I don't know. 21 Q. And did you give that 22 deposition in your capacity as -- I believe 23 you're in marketing? 24 A. I'm sorry? Page 7 1 Q. When was the second time you 2 gave a deposition? 3 A. It's been in, I think in the 4 last twelve month period, I don't recall 5 specifically when it was. 6 Q. The second deposition, where 7 was that given? 8 A. That was given in Washington, 9 DC. 10 Q. And was that deposition also 11 related to Prozac? 12 A. Yes, it was. 13 Q. And do you remember what law 14 firm took that or what lawyer took that 15 deposition? 16 A. No, I do not. 17 Q. Do you remember the name of 18 the case? 19 A. This was a lawsuit with a 20 Church of Scientology against the company. 21 Q. Okay. Was that a lawsuit 22 related to the Prozac records? 23 A. I can't -- that's all I know 24 about it. Page 8 1 Q. How long did that deposition 2 last? 3 A. As I recall the deposition, it 4 took about a day and a half to do. 5 Q. How about the third 6 deposition, where did that take place? 7 A. That took place in these 8 offices and I can't recall the exact date. 9 Q. Again, was that also a Prozac 10 deposition? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Do you remember the name of 13 the lawsuit that that deposition was taken in? 14 A. This was a lawsuit -- 15 involving a lawsuit against our company, a case 16 in Iowa, I believe. 17 Q. Do you know if it was a civil 18 or a criminal case? 19 A. I think it was a civil case 20 but I'm not sure. 21 Q. Besides the deposition today, 22 have you been told that you were going to have to 23 give any other depositions in the Prozac cases or 24 Fluoxetine cases in the near future? Page 9 1 A. No. 2 Q. Okay. I take it since this is 3 your fourth deposition that you're familiar with 4 the ground rules of the deposition as far as 5 letting me know if my question is not clear, 6 things of that nature? 7 A. That's correct. 8 Q. Obviously you know you're 9 under oath, right? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Okay. Anytime that you need 12 to take a break, let us know and we'll take a 13 break, okay? 14 A. Fine. 15 Q. The two main rules is you have 16 to answer out loud. Okay? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And you also have to let me 19 finish my question. And I will do my best to let 20 you finish your answer because Kathy can't take 21 us both down at the same time. Is that fair? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Okay. What's your date of 24 birth? Page 10 1 A. September 18th, 1939. 2 Q. And social security number? 3 A. xxxxxxxxxxx. 4 Q. And current address? 5 A. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 6 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx. 7 Q. How long have you lived at 8 that address? 9 A. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx. 10 Q. Do you have any current plans 11 to move in the near future? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Are you planning on moving out 14 of state? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Where are you planning on 17 moving to? 18 A. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx. 19 Q. And is this a move that is 20 going to be made due to a job promotion or 21 transfer? 22 A. No. 23 Q. Are you planning on leaving 24 Eli Lilly and Company? Page 11 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. When are you planning on 3 leaving Lilly? 4 A. The end of this year. 5 Q. Are you going to work for 6 another company? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. What company are you going to 9 work for? 10 A. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx. 11 Q. Have you been asked to leave 12 Lilly or are you leaving voluntarily? 13 A. I'm leaving voluntarily. I'm 14 retiring. 15 Q. When did you start working for 16 Lilly? 17 A. First of June, 1963. 18 Q. Have you worked for Lilly 19 continuously until the present? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Do you have a current address 22 in xxxxxxxxxxxx, have you found a home? 23 A. We have found a home but I 24 can't tell you the address, I don't recall what Page 12 1 it is. 2 Q. Okay. Are you married? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. What is your wife's name? 5 A. xxxx. 6 Q. Do you have any kids? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. How many kids do you have? 9 A. Three children. 10 Q. Can you give me their names 11 and ages? 12 A. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 13 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 14 Q. I won't ask you what their 15 dates of birth are or anything like that. So as 16 of the first of the year, you'll be in xxxxxx 17 xxxxxx? 18 A. No. 19 Q. When do you plan on being -- 20 A. Sometime in the first quarter. 21 Q. After high school, can you 22 give me what your educational history is? 23 A. I have a degree in pharmacy 24 from Idaho State University, that was a five year Page 13 1 program. 2 Q. Idaho State? 3 A. Idaho State in Pocatello 4 Idaho. 5 Q. Is that a bachelors? 6 A. Yes, BS in pharmacy. 7 Q. When did you get that 8 bachelors? 9 A. In 1962. 10 Q. Any education past your 11 bachelors? 12 A. I attended night school at 13 Butler University for two years in business 14 administration. 15 Q. Did you get a degree in 16 business administration? 17 A. No, I did not. 18 Q. Was that a masters program 19 that -- 20 A. Yes, yes it was. 21 Q. And when did you start at 22 Butler? 23 A. 1967. 24 Q. And when did you leave Butler? Page 14 1 A. 1969. 2 Q. And you were working at Lilly 3 at this time? 4 A. That's correct. 5 Q. Besides your degree from Idaho 6 State and your couple of years of night school at 7 Butler in business administration, do you have 8 any other education past college? 9 A. I've attended executive 10 education programs, week long or one month 11 programs over the past thirty years. 12 Q. Thirty years? 13 A. During -- yes, during my 14 career with the company. 15 Q. I wasn't sure if you said 16 thirty or three. 17 A. I'm sorry. 18 Q. That's okay. And those -- 19 were those programs that the company sent you to? 20 A. That's correct. 21 Q. Can you give me generally what 22 those types of program entailed? 23 A. There're a variety of 24 subjects, everything from finance to strategic Page 15 1 planning. 2 Q. Were these all related somehow 3 to pharmaceutical sales and marketing? 4 A. Not necessarily. 5 Q. Can you give me an idea of 6 some of the programs that you attended that were 7 related to pharmaceutical sales and/or marketing? 8 A. I have attended a couple of 9 PMA sponsored programs on strategic planning. 10 Q. What is PMA? 11 A. Pharmaceutical Manufacturers 12 Association. 13 Q. When was the last PMA 14 sponsored program that you attended? 15 A. A year ago. 16 Q. Where was that held? 17 A. In Tuscan, Arizona. 18 Q. How long was that program? 19 A. I believe it was three days. 20 Q. What was discussed during that 21 program, generally? 22 A. Health care reform. 23 Q. Do you have a big picture of 24 Hillary Clinton on the wall with a dart board on Page 16 1 it? 2 MR. MYERS: Don't answer that. 3 MS. ZETTLER: I'm teasing. 4 Q. Anything else besides health 5 care reform? 6 A. No, not at that meeting. 7 Q. Was FDA regulations discussed 8 at all during that program? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Have you attended any PMA 11 sponsored programs related to adverse event 12 reporting? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Have you attended any PMA 15 sponsored programs related to FDA regulations? 16 A. No. 17 Q. Have you attended any seminars 18 or programs, educational or otherwise, where 19 those were the subjects? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Okay. You started with Lilly 22 in 1963, correct? 23 A. That is correct. 24 Q. I believe you said it was Page 17 1 June? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. What was your first position 4 with Lilly? 5 A. I was a pharmaceutical sales 6 representative in Provo, Utah. 7 Q. When you say pharmaceutical 8 sales rep, is that also known as a detail man? 9 A. Pharmaceutical sales 10 representative. 11 Q. Okay. They didn't call them 12 detail men back then? 13 A. Pharmaceutical sales 14 representative. 15 Q. Is that a yes or a no, did 16 they call them detail men back then? 17 A. I was called a pharmaceutical 18 sales representative. 19 Q. Okay. Were there anybody, as 20 far as you know, that was a salesperson for Lilly 21 that was referred to as a detail man or person? 22 A. That's a general term that's 23 used to talk about that particular occupation, 24 but I was a pharmaceutical sales representative. Page 18 1 Q. Okay. When you say it was a 2 general term that was used, you mean within the 3 industry or at Lilly? 4 A. Within the industry. 5 Q. And how long were you a 6 pharmaceutical sales representative in Utah? 7 A. Approximately two and a half 8 years. 9 Q. So about the fall of 1965? 10 A. Yes. Actually to be specific, 11 it would have been exactly two years because it 12 was May of '65 when -- 13 Q. Okay. And after leaving your 14 position as a pharmaceutical sales representative 15 in Utah, what did you do next for Lilly? 16 A. I came to Indianapolis and 17 became an associate in the quotations development 18 department. 19 Q. Okay. How long were you an 20 associate in the quotations development 21 department? 22 A. Approximately two years. 23 Q. So spring of '67? 24 A. Uh-huh. Page 19 1 Q. You have to say yes or no. 2 A. Yes, I'm sorry. 3 Q. That's okay. And what did you 4 do next? 5 A. I participated in a management 6 training program. 7 Q. Was that also in Indianapolis? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. How long did that training 10 program last? 11 A. Eighteen months. 12 Q. So that would put it about 13 late summer-early fall of 1968? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Okay. After you participated 16 in the management training program, what did you 17 do? 18 A. I became a product manager. 19 Q. What product or products, 20 generally? 21 A. An oral antibiotic. 22 Q. I'm sorry. Antibiotic? 23 A. Antibiotic. 24 Q. Any others? Page 20 1 A. No. 2 Q. How long were you a product 3 manager for that antibiotic? 4 A. I believe a year, year and a 5 half. 6 Q. So approximately 1970? 7 A. 1969, I think it was. 8 Q. Late fall, early winter, '69? 9 A. Uh-huh, yes. 10 Q. And after being a product 11 manager what did you do? 12 A. I became a district sales 13 manager. 14 Q. And what was your district? 15 A. Brooklyn, New York. 16 Q. Brooklyn could be an entire 17 district in itself, I think. I take it you moved 18 to Brooklyn? 19 A. We moved to Connecticut. 20 Q. Okay. And how long were you a 21 district sales manager? 22 A. One year. 23 Q. Until late '70? 24 A. I believe that's correct. Page 21 1 Q. And after you were a district 2 sales manager in Brooklyn, what did you do? 3 A. I became assistant director of 4 sales. 5 Q. Is that back here in 6 Indianapolis? 7 A. No, that was located in Boston 8 Massachusetts. 9 Q. How long were you assistant 10 director of sales? 11 A. Two and a half years. 12 Q. Mid-1972? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Okay. Then what did you do? 15 A. I became a manager in our new 16 product planning group. 17 Q. Is that still in Boston? 18 A. No, that was back in 19 Indianapolis. 20 Q. And how long were you a 21 manager in new product planning? 22 A. I believe that that lasted 23 about a year. 24 Q. What did you do next? Page 22 1 A. Director of international 2 marketing development. 3 Q. How long did that last? 4 A. That lasted four years. 5 Q. So mid-'77? 6 A. I think that's correct. 7 Q. Okay. After that what did you 8 do? 9 A. Became director of marketing 10 for the UK. 11 Q. Okay. When you were a 12 director of international marketing development 13 was that a position still in Indianapolis? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. How about director of 16 marketing for the UK? 17 A. It was located in England. 18 Q. Where in England? 19 A. Basingstoke. 20 Q. And how long did that position 21 last? 22 A. Two years. 23 Q. So it went to mid-'79? 24 A. Yes. Page 23 1 Q. Okay. What did you do after 2 being director of marketing at UK? 3 A. I became director of European 4 diabetes care. 5 Q. And where was that position 6 located? 7 A. In London. 8 Q. How long were you in London? 9 A. About a year and a half. 10 Q. And that's throughout the 11 position as director of European diabetes care? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. So let's see, about the end of 14 '81, beginning of '82? 15 A. We're into 1981. 16 Q. Okay. After being director of 17 European diabetes care what did you do? 18 A. Came back to Indianapolis as 19 director of corporate diabetes care, business 20 development. 21 Q. How long did that position 22 last? 23 A. Another year. 24 Q. Then what did you do? Page 24 1 A. I became director of marketing 2 planning for DISTA. 3 Q. And that was in 1982? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Do you remember what time of 6 year? 7 A. No, I do not. 8 Q. How long were you the director 9 of marketing planning for DISTA? 10 A. Until probably the fall of 11 1992. 12 Q. Okay. What did you do after 13 being director of marketing planning for DISTA? 14 A. I became executive director of 15 marketing planning, CNS, oral antibiotics and 16 analgesics. 17 Q. How long did that position 18 last? 19 A. That's my current position. 20 Q. We should be able to 21 circumvent some of this. When did you first hear 22 of Fluoxetine Hydrochloride? 23 A. Approximately eight years ago. 24 Q. And how did you first hear of Page 25 1 Fluoxetine? 2 A. My group was given the 3 assignment to begin the marketing planning 4 activities associated with the drug. 5 Q. When you say your group, which 6 group was that? 7 A. Marketing planning for DISTA. 8 Q. So you heard of it the first 9 time when you were the director of marketing 10 planning for DISTA? 11 A. That's correct. 12 MS. ZETTLER: Let's take a break. 13 (A SHORT RECESS WAS TAKEN.) 14 Q. Mister Tauscher, have you ever 15 met a Doctor Martin Teicher? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. What is Doctor Teicher? 18 A. Doctor Teicher is a 19 psychiatrist. 20 Q. Okay. And where is he 21 located, if you know? 22 A. I don't know where he's 23 located today. 24 Q. When did you meet with Doctor Page 26 1 Teicher? 2 A. I don't recall the exact date 3 or year. It's been in the last, let's say, five 4 years. 5 Q. Are you aware that Doctor 6 Teicher has written an article that suggests that 7 Fluoxetine is associated with increased suicidal 8 ideation and suicidal behavior? 9 A. I'm aware that Doctor Teicher 10 published a series of case reports on the subject 11 of Prozac, yes. 12 Q. Have you met Doctor Teicher on 13 more than one occasion? 14 A. No. 15 Q. When you met with Doctor 16 Teicher, was that before or after his article on 17 the case reports was published? 18 A. I believe it was probably 19 about the time it was published. 20 Q. Where did you meet with Doctor 21 Teicher? 22 A. I met him at the American 23 Psychiatric Association annual meeting. 24 Q. Where was that meeting held? Page 27 1 A. This particular year it was in 2 New York City. 3 Q. If I told you that Doctor 4 Teicher's case report article was published in 5 February of 1990, would that refresh your 6 recollection as to when you met with him? 7 A. If it was published in 1990, 8 that was the year that I met him. 9 Q. Where was Doctor Teicher 10 located in 1990, to your knowledge? 11 A. He was at McLean Hospital in 12 Boston. 13 Q. When you met with Doctor 14 Teicher, was that a formal meeting or was that 15 just an introduction type of thing? 16 A. It was an introduction to 17 Doctor Teicher, informal. 18 Q. Did you give Doctor Teicher 19 your business card at that time? 20 A. Yes, I did. 21 Q. How long did you speak with 22 Doctor Teicher on that occasion? 23 A. I think it might have been 24 somewhere between five and ten minutes. Page 28 1 Q. What was the subject matter 2 that you talked about? 3 A. There were pleasantries and 4 then we did spend a couple of minutes talking 5 about his case reports. 6 Q. What did you say to Doctor 7 Teicher about his case reports? 8 A. He had just completed a 9 television interview, and that was the topic of 10 our conversation. 11 Q. Do you recall who that 12 television interview was with? 13 A. No, I do not. 14 Q. What did you say to Doctor 15 Teicher about the television interview? 16 A. That I had concerns for the 17 implications that interview would have on 18 patients. 19 Q. What were your concerns? 20 A. That the kind of -- the 21 subjects that was being discussed on television, 22 on public television, would not be readily 23 understood by patients who -- if they had the 24 opportunities to see it. Page 29 1 Q. When you say patients, you 2 mean patients who were either taking Fluoxetine 3 or were candidates to take Fluoxetine? 4 A. When I said patients, I was 5 referring to patients suffering from depression. 6 Q. What was the subject matter of 7 the interview, if you remember? 8 A. His case reports. 9 Q. Why did you raise that subject 10 with Doctor Teicher? 11 A. Out of a personal concern for 12 the patients. 13 Q. Were you asked by anybody at 14 Lilly to approach Doctor Teicher at the APA 15 meeting? 16 A. No. 17 Q. Were you asked by anybody at 18 Lilly to contact Doctor Teicher at any time? 19 A. No. 20 Q. What did Doctor Teicher say in 21 response to your expression of concern for the 22 implications for patients who were depressed? 23 A. He did not directly respond to 24 my concern. Page 30 1 Q. He didn't say anything? 2 A. I did not recall any of his 3 specific remarks. 4 Q. Other than that meeting at the 5 APA, have you ever contacted Doctor Teicher at 6 any other time? 7 A. Doctor Teicher? 8 Q. Teicher, I'm sorry. 9 A. No, I have not. 10 Q. Have you written to him? 11 A. No, I have not. 12 Q. Has he tried to contact you? 13 A. Not to my knowledge. 14 Q. Have you tried to contact him 15 but been unsuccessful? 16 A. No. 17 Q. To your knowledge, has anybody 18 else at Lilly met with Doctor Teicher at any 19 time? 20 A. Would you repeat that? 21 Q. Sure. To your knowledge, has 22 anybody else at Lilly or on behalf of Lilly met 23 with Doctor Teicher at any time? 24 A. I cannot say definitively that Page 31 1 I know that, no. 2 Q. Have you heard that somebody 3 has talked with Doctor Teicher or met with him at 4 any time? 5 A. No, I don't have any direct 6 recollections of that. 7 Q. This is your testimony that 8 you have never met with Doctor Teicher at his 9 offices at McLean Hospital, correct? 10 A. That's correct. 11 Q. Are you aware of any Lilly 12 employees traveling to McLean Hospital to either 13 meet with or attempt to meet with Doctor Teicher? 14 A. Not to my knowledge. 15 Q. Do you know who Jonathan Cole 16 is? 17 A. Say again. 18 Q. Jonathan Cole? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Who is Jonathan Cole? 21 A. Doctor Cole is a psychiatrist. 22 Q. Where is Doctor Cole located, 23 if you know? 24 A. I don't know for sure where Page 32 1 he's at today. 2 Q. Okay. Have you ever spoken 3 with Doctor Cole? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. On how many occasions? 6 A. I'll estimate six times. 7 Q. Are you aware that Doctor Cole 8 was a co-author on a case report form article 9 that was published by Doctor Teicher? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. When did you first become 12 aware of that fact? 13 A. When the case reports were 14 published. 15 Q. When was the first time that 16 you've spoken with Doctor Cole? 17 A. I believe I met Doctor Cole 18 six years ago. 19 Q. Where did you first meet him? 20 A. At an American Psychiatric 21 Association meeting. 22 Q. Where was that meeting held? 23 A. I'm sorry? 24 Q. Where was that meeting held? Page 33 1 A. Washington, DC. 2 Q. Was this a formal meeting? 3 A. With Doctor Cole? 4 Q. Right. 5 A. No. 6 Q. What was the context in which 7 you met Doctor Cole at the Washington APA 8 meeting? 9 A. Doctor Cole was on the faculty 10 of a symposium that our company was supporting. 11 Q. What symposium? 12 A. The McLean Hospital symposium. 13 Q. What was the subject matter of 14 that symposium? 15 A. I believe it was new 16 developments in antidepressant therapy. 17 Q. Was this symposium held before 18 or after Lilly began marketing Prozac? 19 A. It was held before. 20 Q. What was Doctor Cole's role in 21 that symposium? 22 A. He was on the faculty of the 23 symposium. 24 Q. I'm sorry? Page 34 1 A. On the faculty of the 2 symposium. 3 Q. Do you know what Doctor Cole 4 spoke of? 5 A. No, I do not recall. 6 Q. To your knowledge, had Doctor 7 Cole had any experience with Fluoxetine prior to 8 that symposium? 9 A. I do not recall. 10 Q. To your knowledge, has Doctor 11 Cole ever been a clinical investigator on 12 Fluoxetine for Lilly? 13 A. I don't know for sure that he 14 has been. 15 Q. Who else spoke at that 16 symposium? 17 A. I think, to the best of my 18 recollection, Doctor Allen Shatsberg spoke. 19 Q. Anybody else? 20 A. I don't recall the names of 21 the other speakers. 22 Q. Any Lilly employees? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Anyone who had, to your Page 35 1 knowledge, conducted a clinical trial on 2 Fluoxetine for Lilly prior to that time? 3 A. Not to my knowledge. 4 Q. How long did you meet with 5 Doctor Cole at the APA convention in Washington? 6 A. I was introduced to him, that 7 was the extent of my contact. 8 Q. When was the next time that 9 you had contact with Doctor Cole after that? 10 A. I don't recall the exact year 11 or date, but it would have been in connection 12 with another American Psychiatric Association 13 meeting. 14 Q. Do you recall where that 15 meeting was held? 16 A. I don't recall the sequence of 17 these contacts, so I cannot tell you specifically 18 where I met with him each time. 19 Q. Okay. What was the context in 20 which you met with him at this APA meeting? 21 A. It would have been the same 22 topic, the McLean symposium, which is an annual 23 symposium held at the convention. 24 Q. The McLean symposium, is that Page 36 1 always the same topic? 2 A. No. 3 Q. Is that a symposium that Lilly 4 supports on a yearly basis at the APA meeting? 5 A. Each year we have the 6 opportunity to support a number of symposium, 7 that's one of them. 8 Q. So to your knowledge, Lilly 9 has supported this symposium yearly? 10 A. For the past five years; 11 that's correct. 12 Q. Earlier, you said that the 13 first time you met with Doctor Cole was 14 approximately six years ago at the APA meeting at 15 the McLean symposium, correct? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Do you know whether or not 18 Lilly was supporting that symposium? 19 A. That particular symposium, 20 yes. 21 Q. Okay. So it's been at least 22 six years? 23 A. Six years to my knowledge, 24 yeah. Page 37 1 Q. How long did you speak with 2 Doctor Cole at the second APA meeting? 3 A. I think the second time I met 4 him it was during a faculty symposium, faculty 5 symposium dinner that we had the night before the 6 symposium. 7 Q. And long did you talk with 8 Doctor Cole on that occasion? 9 A. I sat with him at a dinner 10 table so we could have had a conversation for an 11 hour, hour and a half. 12 Q. Do you recall what the subject 13 matter of that conversation was at the faculty 14 dinner? 15 A. A variety of topics, I don't 16 recall anything specifically. 17 Q. Do you recall whether or not 18 you talked about Fluoxetine? 19 A. Yes, I'm sure it would have 20 come up but I can't remember any specifics. 21 Q. Do you recall speaking with 22 Doctor Cole at that dinner regarding any safety 23 profile of Fluoxetine? 24 A. I don't recall. Page 38 1 Q. When was the next time that 2 you spoke with Doctor Cole? 3 A. It would have been the 4 following year, annually at this meeting, that's 5 the only time I've ever had contact with him. 6 Q. And to your knowledge, on all 7 the occasions that you spoke with Doctor Cole at 8 these meetings, was he a participant in the 9 McLean symposium? 10 A. That's correct. 11 Q. Has there ever been an 12 occasion where you've spoken with Doctor Cole 13 where it wasn't at an APA meeting? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. When was that, when was the 16 first time? 17 A. I don't recall the specific 18 year or date, but I visited with him in his 19 office at McLean in preparation for the 20 symposium. 21 Q. So prior to an APA meeting at 22 McLean symposium, you met with Doctor Cole to 23 discuss the symposium with him? 24 A. That's correct. Page 39 1 Q. Do you know if that was before 2 or after he and Doctor Teicher published a case 3 report article on suicide and Fluoxetine? 4 A. I do not recall. 5 Q. Do you recall what the subject 6 matter of your discussion at McLean Hospital with 7 Doctor Cole was? 8 A. It was with regard to the 9 arrangements for the symposium. 10 Q. Why is it that you travelled 11 to McLean Hospital to discuss arrangements for 12 the symposium with Doctor Cole? 13 A. Because Doctor Cole was part 14 of the organizing committee for the symposium 15 that year. 16 Q. Did you meet with the 17 organizing committee while you were at McLean? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Who else was on that 20 committee? 21 A. I don't recall their names. 22 There were two other individuals, but I don't 23 recall their names. 24 Q. And during this time that you Page 40 1 were at McLean meeting with Doctor Cole, you did 2 not meet with Doctor Teicher? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Other than the occasional 5 meetings at the APA conventions, and the McLean 6 sypmosium and the meeting at McLean with Doctor 7 Cole prior to an APA symposium, have you ever met 8 with Doctor Cole? 9 A. No, I have not. 10 Q. Have you ever spoken with him 11 on the phone? 12 A. No, I have not. 13 Q. Have you ever written to him? 14 A. No, I haven't. 15 Q. Have you ever spoken with 16 Doctor Cole about the Teicher article? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. When was that? 19 A. That would have been -- I'm 20 not sure of the exact year, it could have been 21 1990 or it could have been '91, but it would have 22 been at one of the -- at one of the conventions. 23 Q. Was this a formal meeting? 24 A. No. Page 41 1 Q. Was this a -- did you speak 2 with Doctor Cole about the article in person? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. What did you say to Doctor 5 Cole about the article? 6 A. As I recall, Doctor Cole 7 raised the topic. 8 Q. Topic of what? 9 A. The article. 10 Q. What did Doctor Cole say about 11 the article? 12 A. I do not recall any specifics 13 about his comments, or mine for that matter, it 14 was just on the article as I recall. 15 Q. Can you be any more specific 16 than the article? Did you express for instance 17 your concerns about the impact of the article on 18 patients who were depressed? 19 A. I don't recall. 20 Q. To your knowledge, has anybody 21 at Lilly been upset with Doctor Cole for being a 22 co-author on that article? 23 A. I'm not sure I understand the 24 question. Page 42 1 Q. To your knowledge, has anybody 2 at Lilly been angry with Doctor Cole for being a 3 participant in the article that was published by 4 Doctor Teicher on Fluoxetine? 5 A. Not to my knowledge. 6 Q. Doctor Cole, to your 7 knowledge, participated in the McLean symposium 8 every year since 1990? 9 A. No, he has not. 10 Q. When was the last year that he 11 participated in the symposium? 12 A. 1992. 13 Q. And so he did not participate 14 in the 1993 symposium? 15 A. That's correct. 16 Q. Why not? 17 A. I do not know. 18 Q. Do you know if that was a 19 personal decision on the part of Doctor Cole or 20 if that was a decision on the part of Lilly or 21 the organizers of this symposium? 22 A. Lilly has no influence on the 23 topics or the speakers at the symposium so it was 24 not any of our decisions. Page 43 1 Q. Who makes the decision on what 2 the topic of the symposium is? 3 A. The organizers at McLean. 4 Q. If Lilly has no control over 5 the topic or the participants in the symposium, 6 why did you meet with Doctor Cole in 1990 or 7 prior to one of the APA meetings to discuss the 8 symposium? 9 A. We met with Doctor Cole and 10 the other members of the organizing committee to 11 talk about the logistics associated with the 12 meeting, such things as the room site, was there 13 going to be food or beverages served at breaks, 14 that sort of thing. 15 Q. Who else was in attendance 16 from Lilly at that meeting? 17 A. As I recall, Sara Morton and 18 the product manager for Prozac, who I don't 19 recall -- I don't recall the name of the 20 individual at that particular point in time when 21 we had the meeting. 22 Q. Does Earleen Ashbrook sound 23 familiar? 24 A. I'm sorry? Page 44 1 Q. How about Earleen Ashbrook? 2 A. No. 3 Q. Was it a male or female? 4 A. It was a male. 5 Q. Dan Masica? 6 A. No. I said the product 7 manager. 8 Q. Who was the product manager 9 for Fluoxetine now? 10 A. The product manager for 11 Fluoxetine today is Jim Lancaster. 12 Q. Who preceded Mister Lancaster? 13 A. Bob Petersen. 14 Q. When did Mister Lancaster 15 replace Mister Petersen? 16 A. I don't recall. 17 Q. Who preceded Bob Petersen? 18 A. Charles Perry. 19 Q. Who preceded Mister Perry? 20 A. Ken Cohen. 21 Q. How about Mister Cohen, who 22 preceded him? 23 A. He was the first product 24 manager. Page 45 1 Q. So one of these four gentlemen 2 was in attendance at the meeting with Sara 3 Morton? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. It's just a matter that you 6 don't recall which one it was? 7 A. I don't recall which one it 8 was because I can't remember the exact year when 9 we went there. 10 Q. Mister Tauscher, just for 11 Kathy's benefit, please let me finish my question 12 before you start answering, okay? 13 A. Fine. 14 Q. Other than the time you spoke 15 with Doctor Cole or Doctor Cole raised the issue 16 of the article written by Doctor Teicher, have 17 you ever spoken with Doctor Cole about the 18 article? 19 A. Doctor Cole did not raise the 20 issue about the article, he just raised the 21 article, for the record. But I've never talked 22 with him about the article except at that point 23 in time. 24 Q. To your knowledge, has anybody Page 46 1 else at Lilly talked with Doctor Cole regarding 2 the article? 3 A. I don't know that they have or 4 not. 5 Q. Okay. When you first started 6 with Lilly in June of 1963, can you give us a 7 general description of what your responsibilities 8 as a pharmaceutical sales representative in Utah 9 entailed? 10 A. Calling on physicians, 11 hospitals, and pharmacies, discussing Lilly 12 products and servicing the accounts. 13 Q. Were there any particular 14 products that you were selling? 15 A. As I recall, V-Cillin K, which 16 was an oral antibiotic, Ilosone which was an oral 17 antibitotic, Centrum which was a vitamin, 18 Mycebron which was a vitamin, Beck which was a 19 vitamin, Darvon which is a painkiller, analgesic, 20 and Keflin, an injectable antibiotic, and Lordin, 21 an injectable antibiotic. 22 Q. Were you selling any 23 psychotropic drugs during that period of time? 24 A. During that time, we also Page 47 1 introduced Aventyl which was an antidepressant. 2 Q. Can you spell that for me? 3 A. A-V-E-N-T-Y-L. We also had a 4 couple of different barbiturates, Tuinal, Seconal 5 and Amytal. 6 Q. Who would you sell the 7 psychotropic drugs to, was it psychiatric 8 professionals or was it doctors across the board? 9 A. We sold the products to 10 hospitals and to pharmacies, and discussed the 11 product with psychiatrists and primary care 12 physicians. 13 Q. Did you begin selling these 14 psychotropic drugs to psychiatrists and primary 15 care physicians at the same time or was it a 16 staggered introduction? 17 A. As I recall, to the best of my 18 recollection, it was all at the same time. 19 Q. To the best of your 20 recollection was there a difference between the 21 way the psychotropic drugs were sold or detailed 22 to physicians as opposed to the nonpsychotropic 23 drugs? 24 A. Could you repeat that for me? Page 48 1 Q. Sure. I just want to know if 2 there was a difference between the way 3 psychotropic drugs were sold or promoted to 4 hospitals, pharmacies or doctors as compared to 5 the way the nonpsychiatric drugs were sold or 6 promoted? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Back then did Lilly require 9 that salesmen collect data on and report adverse 10 events that they were told about by the 11 customers? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Was there a difference between 14 the way the adverse event information was 15 collected and transferred back to Lilly regarding 16 the psychotropic drugs as opposed to the 17 nonpsychotropic drugs? 18 A. No. 19 Q. Give me a brief description of 20 what Lilly's policy was back then regarding sales 21 people collecting and transferring data on 22 adverse events that they became aware of through 23 selling? 24 A. If a physician or any health Page 49 1 care professional brought to our attention an 2 adverse event recording any of our drugs, we were 3 to put those people in contact with the medical 4 division, either in writing or in person, 5 depending on the situation. 6 Q. Were you told to report the 7 details of the adverse events directly to Lilly 8 yourself? 9 A. To the best of my 10 recollection, no. That was between the doctor 11 and the -- or the health care professional in the 12 medical group at Lilly. 13 Q. Would you ask the doctor to 14 contact Lilly to report the adverse event 15 directly or would you inform Lilly that the 16 doctor had information related to an adverse 17 event? 18 A. I can't recall exactly the 19 policy at that point in time. I just don't 20 recall. 21 Q. Were you asked by anybody at 22 Lilly during that period of time to solicit 23 adverse event information from doctors or health 24 care professionals that you sold Lilly product Page 50 1 to? 2 A. To solicit information, no. 3 Q. So it was a matter if the 4 doctor raised the issue then you would make sure 5 that it was reported to somebody at Lilly? 6 A. That is correct. 7 Q. If a doctor during that period 8 of time had a question regarding psychotropic 9 drugs that you sold, what would you do outside of 10 an adverse event? 11 A. If the doctor asked questions 12 regarding the drug and the information was 13 contained within the labeling, and I had that 14 information, I would present it to the physician. 15 Q. Okay. What if you did not 16 have the information that would be responsive to 17 their question? 18 A. I would offer to communicate 19 their question to the medical group in 20 Indianapolis. 21 Q. And if you communicated that 22 question to the medical group in Indianapolis, 23 what would they do? 24 A. They would either call or Page 51 1 write to the physician with a response. 2 Q. During the time that you were 3 a salesperson for Lilly products in Utah, did you 4 have an occasion to deal with a doctor who 5 referred to medical literature that may have not 6 presented a Lilly product in the best of lights? 7 A. I'm not sure I understand your 8 question. 9 Q. Something that was critical of 10 a Lilly product either from an efficacy or safety 11 standpoint, one of the products that you were 12 selling during that period of time? 13 A. I'm still not sure what the 14 question is. 15 Q. Okay. I'm just curious to 16 know if -- say a doctor said, Mister Tauscher, I 17 understand from medical literature that has been 18 published that, just as an example, there are 19 untoward adverse events that are connected with 20 Seconal, okay, and this article has been 21 published by Doctor A on such and such a date in 22 such and such a journal. What would you do in 23 response to that sort of an issue? 24 A. That kind of question, if it Page 52 1 were to come up, I would have shared with the 2 doctor the information that I had from the 3 labeling regarding adverse events for the drug; 4 and if I had access to the particular publication 5 that the doctor referred to, we would discuss it, 6 otherwise I would again refer the physician to 7 Indianapolis. 8 Q. Okay. Did Lilly at any time 9 provide you as a salesman with literature to 10 distribute to doctors to counteract any negative 11 literature that was published about a Lilly drug? 12 A. We had access to medical 13 literature on our products that was within 14 labeling, and were given that literature so that 15 we could provide it as an informational service 16 to physicians. 17 Q. Mister Tauscher, I notice that 18 you keep referring to using the label as a point 19 of reference in sales, in answering questions and 20 things of that nature, am I correct in that -- 21 A. Yes you are. 22 Q. -- accusation? Okay. If a 23 question was asked of you or a topic came up that 24 was not covered in the labeling, what would you Page 53 1 do? 2 A. I would refer that question to 3 Indianapolis to the medical group so that they 4 could respond to the physician. 5 Q. Would it be fair to say that 6 as a salesperson, you would rely heavily on the 7 package insert to gain information about the 8 particular drug, not necessarily how it works on 9 the body, and things of that nature, but 10 information to respond to questions by customers? 11 A. The package insert is the 12 basis for the information that we had access to. 13 That information could be supplemented by 14 material from Indianapolis to help me understand 15 the topics, but the package insert is the basis 16 of all that. 17 Q. It was your primary source of 18 information on a particular drug. 19 A. I'm sorry? 20 Q. Would it be fair to say it was 21 your primary source of information on that 22 particular drug that you were selling? 23 A. It would be the basis of the 24 information. Page 54 1 Q. I take it that you never sold 2 or detailed Fluoxetine, is that correct? 3 A. I have not detailed 4 Fluoxetine. 5 Q. And when I say detail, I mean 6 as a salesperson directly. 7 A. That's correct. Yeah, I 8 understood that. 9 Q. All right. Your next position 10 with Lilly was associate in quotations 11 development department, correct? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. What is the quotations 14 development department? 15 A. That was or is a part of the 16 company involved with pricing studies. 17 Q. What's a pricing study? 18 A. Market research, other 19 investigative work on the subject of 20 pharmaceutical pricing. 21 Q. And that department still 22 exists today? 23 A. Probably under a different 24 title, but yes. Page 55 1 Q. When you say that marketing 2 studies, can you just give me a general idea of 3 the type of studies you're talking about? 4 A. Basic research to determine 5 the prices of competitive products as well as 6 research on pricing of potential Lilly product. 7 Q. Any other areas besides 8 pricing that this department works on? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Do they do any focus group 11 type of work? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. What types of focus group 14 would they have done while you were there? 15 A. Having doctors respond to 16 profiles of new products to determine their 17 interest in them. 18 Q. Mister Tauscher, in the 19 documents that were provided to us as part of 20 your file on Fluoxetine prior to the deposition 21 today, we received a number of -- I'm not going 22 to ask anything specific about them right now, 23 I'll show them to you later, but they provided us 24 with a number of memorandums and comments that Page 56 1 were made by doctors during focus groups on 2 Fluoxetine products, Lovan and Prozac. Would 3 those focus groups have been conducted by the 4 quotation department as it existed? 5 A. No. 6 Q. Okay. What department would 7 those focus groups have come from? 8 A. That would have come from 9 marketing studies. 10 Q. To your knowledge, has the 11 quotations department conducted any focus groups 12 on Fluoxetine? 13 A. From a pricing perspective, 14 yes. 15 Q. When you say that while you 16 were with the quotations development department, 17 the department would conduct focus groups of 18 doctors to respond to profiles on drugs, correct? 19 A. Say again. 20 Q. When you were with the 21 quotations department they would conduct focus 22 groups on profiles of products, is that correct? 23 A. We would organize and direct 24 such research, yes. Page 57 1 Q. How would a focus group of 2 doctors profile the drug and their reaction to 3 that profile determine what the pricing of the 4 drug would be? 5 MR. MYERS: Before he answers that, 6 let me -- I'm going to instruct him to do this, 7 you can tell her very generally, but now you're 8 getting into how they price all sorts of product 9 and that is highly proprietary. I do not want to 10 go into that, so just give her a very general 11 explanation of how that -- 12 Q. What I'm trying to get at, 13 Mister Tauscher, is what the difference is 14 between a marketing study focus group and what 15 the quotations department focus group would be. 16 That's what I'm interested in. 17 A. Physicians were given a 18 profile of the drug and then also a series of 19 different prices to see based on the profile what 20 they thought the drug was worth. 21 Q. And how would that differ from 22 the focus groups that were conducted by the 23 marketing studies department? 24 A. Pricing would not typically be Page 58 1 included in the other kinds of market research. 2 Q. The market research done by 3 the marketing studies department? 4 A. Marketing studies department 5 does all sorts of studies. They do studies for 6 the pricing group, they do studies for plans, et 7 cetera. 8 Q. With regard to the marketing, 9 I thought you were going to ask something. 10 MR. MYERS: No, I'm just being 11 attentive. 12 Q. Give me an example of some of 13 the marketing studies that were performed on 14 Fluoxetine by the marketing studies department, 15 the ones that you're aware of. 16 A. They would range from 17 determining where, what types of patients the 18 doctors were choosing to use Fluoxetine, to their 19 interest and reaction to different dosage forms 20 of the product. 21 Q. Was that two as in the number 22 two? 23 A. No, to range. 24 Q. Okay. When you say doctors' Page 59 1 interest in reaction to different dosage forms, 2 do you mean different milligram capsules? 3 A. That's correct. 4 Q. Liquid Prozac? 5 A. That's correct. 6 Q. To your knowledge, has a 7 marketing study or a focus group ever been 8 performed to study doctors' experiences with 9 adverse event on Fluoxetine? 10 A. No. 11 Q. Has doctors' experiences with 12 Fluoxetine adverse events ever been an arm or a 13 tangent of the marketing study? 14 A. No. 15 Q. When I say marketing study, I 16 mean including any focus groups that were 17 conducted, okay? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Is that fair enough? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. To your knowledge, have 22 doctors ever given information regarding adverse 23 events on Fluoxetine during the focus group or 24 marketing study? Page 60 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. In what situation would that 3 happen? 4 A. It could just come up during a 5 focus group where a physician described an 6 adverse event to their colleagues. 7 Q. Do you recall that happening? 8 A. I don't recall being 9 specifically present or seeing any details of 10 that, but I know it has occurred. 11 Q. And when that occurred, what 12 would Lilly do? 13 A. Forward that information to 14 the medical group. 15 Q. Okay. What would the medical 16 group do with that information, to your 17 knowledge? 18 A. Depending on what the 19 information was, contact the physician. 20 Q. Would a report about the 21 adverse event be made to the FDA? 22 A. All adverse events that are 23 reported to the company are reported to the FDA. 24 Q. To your knowledge, has a Page 61 1 marketing study or focus group been performed by 2 Lilly on behalf of Lilly by anybody regarding the 3 issue of Fluoxetine and suicidal ideation? 4 A. No. 5 Q. How about the issue of 6 Fluoxetine and violent aggressive behavior or 7 hostility? 8 A. No. 9 Q. How about Fluoxetine and 10 increased agitation? 11 A. No. 12 Q. Could you give me generally 13 what some of the subjects were besides 14 determining what types of patients doctors were 15 using Fluoxetine on and their reaction to 16 different dosage forms? 17 A. Their positioning of the drug 18 relative to other antidepressants, the -- their 19 feelings about the benefits and strengths of the 20 product in their practice. 21 Q. Anything else? 22 A. Their interest in additional 23 patient education materials. 24 Q. Anything else? Page 62 1 A. I can't recall any other 2 specifics. 3 Q. Okay. When you say their 4 discussion or interest in benefits and strength 5 of the drug, you mean the doctors? 6 A. The physicians, yes. 7 Q. And positioning regarding 8 antidepressants, other antidepressants that were 9 on the market, what do you mean by that? 10 A. I mean how they would compare 11 Prozac versus another product in their practice 12 in the treatment of depression. 13 Q. Okay. So then again when you 14 say they, you mean doctors prescribing the drugs? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Okay. What patient education 17 materials are you talking about? 18 A. A variety of materials. It 19 could be pamphlets, audio tapes, videos. 20 Q. Would you test the acceptance 21 by the doctors of various patient education 22 materials that were in development by Lilly? 23 A. That has taken place, yes. 24 Q. What education material was Page 63 1 Lilly developing? 2 A. As mentioned before, 3 brochures, audio tapes, videotapes. 4 Q. And what were the subject 5 matter of these brochures, audio tapes and 6 videotapes? 7 A. The signs and symptoms of 8 depression and what to expect as part of the 9 treatment of the disease. 10 Q. Did Lilly work with any 11 outside entity to develop these brochures, audio 12 tapes and videotapes? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. What entity or entities did 15 they work with to develop this material? 16 A. I can recall J. Walter 17 Thompson, Deltakos. 18 Q. I'm sorry. Spell that, the 19 second one, Deltakos. 20 A. D -- It's the same company. 21 Deltakos is a division of J. Walter Thompson. 22 D-E-L-T-A-K-O-S. 23 Q. Okay. 24 A. We've also worked with the Page 64 1 National Mental Health Association and the 2 National Depressive Manic Depressive Association 3 and the National Alliance for the Mentally Ill, 4 and the National Institutes of Mental Health. 5 Q. Okay. Do you recall working 6 with Burst and Marsteler? 7 A. Not in the development of 8 patient materials. 9 Q. Okay. But you do recall 10 working with Burst and Marsteler? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. In what capacity did you work 13 with Burst and Marsteler? 14 A. I worked with Burst and 15 Marsteler with regard to public relations. 16 Q. I'm just limiting it to 17 Fluoxetine, I'm not interested in any other 18 drugs. 19 A. I understand. 20 Q. Because if I ask you that 21 Larry will jump down my throat. So frankly I 22 don't care. What public relations issues have 23 you worked with Burst and Marsteler on related to 24 Fluoxetine? Page 65 1 A. I didn't refer to issues, I 2 referred to working with them on public relations 3 projects and I've worked with them specifically 4 on a National Awareness Educational Campaign on 5 depression as well as several other press 6 conferences in the area of education. 7 Q. Was Burst and Marsteler 8 involved in the National Mental Health 9 Association, Lilly depression program? 10 A. The National Clinical 11 Depression Educational program is a program that 12 Burst and Marsteler has been involved in, yes. 13 Q. The National Mental Health 14 Association is also involved in that program, is 15 it not? 16 A. The National Mental Health 17 Association is a primary sponsor of the program, 18 yes. 19 Q. How about some of these other 20 associations that you mentioned earlier, the 21 National Institute of Mental Health, are they 22 involved? 23 A. The National Institutes of 24 Mental Health are, I think, supporters of the Page 66 1 program, yes, that's correct. 2 Q. Is this related to the D/ART 3 program, D/ART, D-, slash, A-R-T? 4 A. I think your referring to 5 Disease Awareness Recognition Program that NINH 6 has sponsored, yes. 7 Q. Is that program related to the 8 National Awareness Campaign on depression? 9 A. No. 10 Q. What is the difference between 11 those two programs? 12 A. Both of those programs are 13 directed at providing public education on the 14 disease depression. 15 Q. But they are not interrelated 16 other than subject matter? 17 A. That's correct. 18 Q. Is Lilly sponsoring the D/ART 19 program? 20 A. No. 21 Q. How about NAMI, N-A-M-I, are 22 they -- 23 A. The National Alliance for the 24 Mentally Ill is one of the cosponsors for the Page 67 1 program, yes. 2 Q. Let's go back a little bit. 3 Have you ever seen an affidavit written by Doctor 4 Teicher on the Macy's Santa Claus case? 5 A. I don't recall, no. 6 Q. Have you ever gotten any 7 information from anybody at NAMI regarding Doctor 8 Teicher, any cases that he has testified as an 9 expert on? 10 A. No, I have not. 11 Q. Other than seeing a copy of 12 the article that he published in early 1990, have 13 you seen any other documents that have been 14 authored by Doctor Teicher? 15 A. I believe I have but I can't 16 recall any specifics. 17 Q. Would these documents be other 18 than published articles? 19 A. No. It would just be public 20 information. 21 Q. Okay. How about the National -- 22 watch me get this one wrong, I always do, NDMDA? 23 A. National Depressive Manic 24 Depressant Association. Page 68 1 Q. Thank you. Were they involved 2 in the National Awareness Campaign on depression? 3 A. They're cosponsors. 4 Q. Besides NMHA, the National 5 Depressive Manic Depressant Association, NAMI, 6 and National Institutes of Mental Health and 7 Lilly, were there any other cosponsors of that 8 program? 9 A. I can recall specifically the 10 American Psychiatric Association, and I'm not 11 sure I can recall any other specific 12 organizations. 13 Q. What was your role, if any, in 14 the National Awareness Campaign on depression? 15 A. The Lilly activity regarding 16 developing the campaign took place in my 17 organization. 18 Q. And what was your organization 19 at that time? 20 A. The marketing planning group 21 for CNS, oral antibiotics, and analgesics. 22 Q. Where is J. Walter Thompson, 23 Deltakos located? 24 A. Deltakos is located in New Page 69 1 York City. 2 Q. And did you work with the New 3 York office? 4 A. I have not personally worked 5 with Deltakos on this project. 6 Q. To your knowledge, was the 7 work on this project done through the New York 8 office? 9 A. Yes. On this project being 10 Prozac? 11 Q. Right. 12 MS. ZETTLER: Let's take a break. 13 (A SHORT RECESS WAS TAKEN.) 14 Q. Mister Tauscher, when was the 15 decision made to create the National Awareness 16 Campaign on Depression, if you know? 17 A. 1962. I'm sorry, not 1962, 18 1992, I apologize. 19 Q. I was going to say, wait, that 20 was before you were even there. And who made 21 that decision? Generally, not anybody specific. 22 A. The decision to proceed with 23 the campaign was made by our senior management. 24 Q. To your knowledge, had Lilly Page 70 1 ever participated in an awareness campaign on 2 depression prior to 1992? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. What campaign would that have 5 been? 6 A. From the introduction of 7 Prozac in 1988, we had participated in a variety 8 of campaigns. 9 Q. Can you give me an example of 10 some of those campaigns? 11 A. We provided specific medical 12 education programs for physicians on the 13 recognition, diagnosis, and treatment of 14 depression. We provided patient education 15 brochures on the subject of depression for 16 physician offices. We supported educational 17 efforts on the part of the various patient 18 groups, and we participated in the national 19 depression screening day, participated from the 20 standpoint of supporting it. Those are examples. 21 Q. When you say that you 22 participated in campaigns of medical education 23 for physicians, recognizing, diagnosing and 24 treating depression, were those campaigns Page 71 1 directed towards mental health professionals? 2 A. Those programs were directed 3 primarily at primary care physicians. 4 Q. And was your participation in 5 the medical education of primary care physicians 6 part of a marketing scheme regarding Prozac at 7 Lilly? 8 MR. MYERS: Let me object to the form 9 in the use of the term scheme. 10 MS. ZETTLER: I didn't mean it as 11 anything -- 12 MR. MYERS: I don't know how you meant 13 it. 14 A. Could you restate the 15 question? 16 Q. Sure. Was Lilly's 17 participation in a medical education of primary 18 care physicians regarding the recognition, 19 diagnosis and treatment of depression, related in 20 any way to a marketing plan by Lilly for Prozac? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. In what way was it related? 23 A. One of the issues that exist 24 in the use of antidepressants is lack of Page 72 1 understanding of the disease and diagnostic and 2 treatment skills on the part of primary care 3 physicians. 4 Q. And when you say lack of 5 diagnostics and treatment skills on the part of 6 the primary physicians, you mean related to 7 depression? 8 A. Related to mental illness in 9 general, specifically to depression. 10 Q. Was the promotion of Prozac in 11 the use of treating depression or other mental 12 illnesses incorporated into the educational 13 program for primary care physicians? 14 A. Would you say that again? 15 Q. Sure. Was using Prozac in the 16 treatment of mental illness in depression in 17 particular, a part of the education program for 18 primary care physicians? 19 A. Not necessarily. 20 Q. Was there any case, to your 21 knowledge, where Prozac was promoted as a 22 treatment for depression in any of these primary 23 education or these education campaigns for 24 primary physicians? Page 73 1 A. Prozac was not promoted in 2 these programs. Prozac and other antidepressants 3 were sometimes discussed as part of the treatment 4 section of the programs. 5 Q. Where was the information that 6 that was passed onto the primary care physicians 7 related to the recognition and diagnosis and 8 treatment of depression obtained from? 9 A. The material for these 10 programs was developed by a group of physicians 11 outside of the company. 12 Q. When you say outside of the 13 company, you mean they were not employees of 14 Lilly? 15 A. That's correct. 16 Q. Were they retained by Lilly as 17 consultants in the development of this 18 information? 19 A. That is correct. 20 Q. Do you recall the names of 21 these consultants? 22 A. I do not recall his -- I do 23 too, Phil Bashuck. 24 Q. Can you spell that? Page 74 1 A. No, I can't. 2 Q. Can you give us your best 3 shot? 4 A. Yours will be as good as mine, 5 but B-A-S-H-U-C-K. 6 Q. E-C-K? 7 A. U-C-K. 8 Q. U-C-K. Okay. And is -- 9 A. He was the director, he's a 10 Ph.D, director of medical education at the 11 American Psychiatric Association. 12 Q. Anybody else? 13 A. Doctor Peter Stokes at Duke 14 University. 15 Q. Anybody else? 16 A. Doctor Allen Shatsberg. 17 Q. Where is he located? 18 A. He's located at Stanford 19 University. 20 Q. Anybody else? 21 A. I can't recall the specific -- 22 there were other people but I can't recall the 23 names. 24 Q. How about Doctor Jan Fawcett? Page 75 1 A. Doctor Jan Fawcett may or may 2 not have been involved, I don't recall. 3 Q. Doctor David Clark? 4 A. That name doesn't ring a bell 5 with me. 6 Q. Is Doctor Cole involved in 7 this group? 8 A. I'm sorry? 9 Q. Doctor Cole, is he involved in 10 this group? 11 A. Not to my knowledge. 12 Q. When did this group start work 13 on developing the information that was used in 14 the campaign to educate primary care physicians? 15 A. I think our first formal 16 program was introduced in 1989. So they would 17 have done -- started the work probably in the 18 beginning of '89. I'm not exactly sure but 19 that's the time frame. 20 Q. To your knowledge, did anybody 21 at Lilly work on, other than yourself, work on 22 that program? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Okay. Who at Lilly? Page 76 1 A. Who would have been the 2 product manager? 3 Q. One of those four gentlemen 4 that we talked about? 5 A. One of the four gentlemen. 6 Q. Do you recall which one? 7 A. No, I do not. 8 Q. Anybody else? 9 A. The material would be reviewed 10 by medical and legal. 11 Q. When you say the material, you 12 mean the material that was put together by the 13 consultants to be passed onto the primary care 14 physicians? 15 A. Yes, that's correct. 16 Q. Who at medical would have 17 reviewed the material? 18 A. It could have been a variety 19 of people. Dan Masica. I'm not sure, it could 20 have been David Wheadon but I'm not sure of the 21 time that David was with us then or not. 22 Q. How about Charles Beasley? 23 A. Doctor Beasley could have been 24 another individual. Page 77 1 Q. Doctor Leigh Thompson? 2 A. No. 3 Q. How about Doctor John 4 Heiligenstein? 5 A. John Heiligenstein could have 6 also been. 7 Q. How about Doctor Wernicke? 8 A. Joe Wernicke could possibly. 9 Q. Paul Stark? 10 A. No. 11 Q. To your knowledge, has Lilly 12 participated in any depression awareness or 13 educational programs prior to the beginning of 14 marketing of Prozac? 15 A. Not to my knowledge. 16 Q. Okay. When you were a sales 17 rep, for Lilly back in the early to mid-'60's, 18 and were selling Aventyl, was Lilly, to your 19 knowledge, participating in any kind of 20 depression campaigns or any mental illness 21 awareness campaigns? 22 A. I do not recall. 23 Q. When you say that Lilly 24 participated in a national depression screening Page 78 1 day, in what ways did they participate? 2 A. We provided, have provided an 3 unrestricted grant to the organizers of the 4 national depression screening day. 5 Q. Other than providing a grant 6 to the organizers, did Lilly participate in any 7 way? 8 A. Only probably to consult with 9 them in terms of logistics. 10 Q. And what did Lilly get in 11 return for their participation? 12 A. For providing the financial 13 support? 14 Q. Right. 15 A. Nothing. 16 Q. To your knowledge, was Lilly's 17 logo used on any of the materials that had been 18 handed out during the depression screening day? 19 A. Various materials were used in 20 1993 at the various sites, but those were the 21 materials that were used under the control of the 22 various sites, and I could not tell you if any of 23 our educational materials were used or not. 24 Q. When you say any of our Page 79 1 educational materials, what do you mean? 2 A. I mean materials that would 3 have been produced by the company that would have 4 our logo on them. 5 Q. Would these be materials that 6 were produced specifically for participation in 7 the national depression screening day or would 8 those have been materials that were produced for 9 some other reason? 10 A. General educational materials 11 on the subject of depression. 12 Q. But would those materials have 13 been produced specifically for use in the 14 national depression screening day or would they 15 have been produced for uses in other areas, also? 16 A. General education in 17 depression, so a variety of programs. 18 Q. Okay. To your knowledge, had 19 any materials been specifically produced with 20 Lilly logos on it for use specifically in the 21 national depression screening day? 22 A. I don't recall. 23 Q. What was your participation in 24 the national depression screening day program? Page 80 1 A. I was made aware of the 2 details of the program and approved our support 3 of it. 4 Q. To your knowledge, were any 5 films produced by Lilly to be used during this 6 screening day? 7 A. As I recall, there is a film 8 that has been used at the screening day. I don't 9 know what the film is and therefore can't tell 10 you if it was a film that we originated or not. 11 Q. To your knowledge, did that 12 film discuss Prozac in any way? 13 A. Our public education materials 14 do not discuss the product, per se. 15 Q. Do they discuss the product in 16 any way? 17 A. The public education materials 18 talk about depression and do not talk about the 19 product. 20 Q. How about the treatment 21 portions of the educational materials, do they 22 discuss Prozac as an alternative? 23 A. The medical education 24 materials do, yes. Page 81 1 Q. You mean the education for the 2 doctors? 3 A. Medical education for 4 physicians, yes. 5 Q. It's your testimony that the 6 education for the patients or the public do not 7 contain discussion about the product? 8 A. There are education materials 9 that are used by physicians with patients that do 10 reference the product. If you call those public 11 education materials, yes. 12 Q. So you're talking about 13 materials that a doctor may provide to a patient 14 once they have prescribed Prozac? 15 A. That's correct. 16 Q. Other than the prescription 17 information, for lack of a better phrase, do any 18 of the other educational materials provided by 19 Lilly or supported in some way by Lilly that are 20 provided to the public discuss Prozac as an 21 alternative treatment? 22 A. Not to my knowledge. 23 Q. Prior to the marketing of 24 Prozac, has Lilly, at any time, to your Page 82 1 knowledge, participated in a public awareness 2 program or educational program related to a 3 disease which one of its products is meant to 4 treat? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Okay. What would -- any of 7 those related to mental illness? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Without getting into specifics 10 as to what products, if any were related to the 11 programs, could you tell me what programs you're 12 talking about? 13 A. I'm referring to influenza 14 education, as well as poliomyelitis education. 15 Q. The products that were 16 related, if any, to either one of these 17 campaigns, are they on the market currently? 18 A. No. 19 Q. Have they been marketed in the 20 past? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. These campaigns that were 23 supported or produced by Lilly, the educational 24 campaigns on influenza or polio, were they Page 83 1 produced in relation to a particular product that 2 was manufactured by Lilly? 3 A. They were produced with regard 4 to educating the public on the two diseases and 5 that treatment was available. 6 Q. And the treatment that was 7 available was, at least an alternative treatment 8 that was available, was a product that was 9 produced by Lilly? 10 A. That's correct. 11 Q. Are you aware of any instances 12 where Lilly has participated in either medical 13 education or a public awareness campaign on a 14 disease, be it a mental illness or a physical 15 illness, where it wasn't done in conjunction with 16 a product that was manufactured by Lilly? 17 A. I don't know. I cannot say 18 that that's not the case, I do not know. 19 Q. Okay. What responsibilities 20 did you have when you were an associate in 21 quotations development? 22 A. Doing basic market research on 23 pharmaceutical pricing, developing 24 recommendations on prices of new products, Page 84 1 developing pricing proposals for nonprofit 2 institutions. 3 Q. Anything else? 4 A. That's all I recall. 5 Q. What do you mean when you say 6 developing pricing proposals for nonprofit 7 institutions? 8 A. The law allows for hospitals 9 that are nonprofit and for use within the walls 10 of the institution for special prices, quantity 11 prices, to be made available to the institutions, 12 and that was the sort of pricing proposals that I 13 was involved in. 14 Q. So discounted prices for not 15 for profit institutions? 16 A. That's correct. 17 Q. Would that be done in 18 relationship to say clinical trials that had been 19 run or were to be run at these institutions? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Has Lilly, to your knowledge, 22 provided Fluoxetine at discounted prices to not 23 for profit institutions with the expectation of 24 receiving any kind of data on the use of Page 85 1 Fluoxetine as a result of it being prescribed at 2 the institution? 3 A. Not under those arrangements, 4 no. 5 Q. How about under any 6 arrangements, to your knowledge has Lilly 7 provided Fluoxetine to any institution that 8 you're aware of under the understanding that they 9 would receive information on the prescribing or 10 use of Fluoxetine as a result of that? 11 A. As part of a clinical trial, 12 yes. 13 Q. Clinical trial on depression? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. What clinical trial was that, 16 what's the objective of the clinical trial? 17 A. Could you be a little bit more 18 specific? I'm not sure what you mean. 19 Q. Sure. First of all were there 20 more than one clinical trials that were conducted 21 under these circumstances to your knowledge on 22 Fluoxetine? 23 A. There have been a variety of 24 clinical trials conducted on Fluoxetine since it Page 86 1 was discovered, yes. 2 Q. Okay. But I mean under the 3 situation where Lilly provided the drug to a not 4 for profit institution to be used in a clinical 5 trial? 6 A. The provision of drugs as part 7 of the clinical trial is a basic policy, so any 8 clinical trial, to the best of my knowledge, 9 would involve the provision of the medication for 10 the trial. 11 Q. Okay. Maybe I'm getting 12 confused. We were talking about situations where 13 Fluoxetine was provided to not for profit 14 institutions either under the discounted pricing 15 situation for institutions without any 16 information or any benefit that was going to be 17 gleaned by Lilly, okay, I mean just as a matter 18 of providing that institution with the drug at a 19 discounted price, correct? 20 A. On quantity prices, yes. 21 Q. Okay. Then I asked you if you 22 were aware of any situation where Lilly provided 23 a drug to a not for profit organization where 24 they would get information in return on the use Page 87 1 of Fluoxetine, either their prescribing tablets 2 or people's reaction to the drug or efficacy 3 things of that nature, and you said with regards 4 to a clinical trial? 5 A. I said only with regard to 6 clinical trials. 7 Q. Okay. You are not talking 8 about a specific clinical trial that was done at 9 a not for profit organization where a deal was 10 made between Lilly to give them the drug in 11 return for conducting some sort of clinical 12 trial, right? 13 A. I'm talking about clinical 14 trials that could have been conducted at 15 institutions that would be classified as 16 nonprofit. 17 Q. Okay. So you're saying 18 generally when Lilly commissions somebody to run 19 a clinical trial for them, they provide the study 20 drug to them for nothing, right? 21 A. That's correct. 22 Q. Okay. But are you aware of 23 any situation where say Lilly promised to provide 24 a not for profit organization with an unlimited Page 88 1 supply for use within the institution of 2 Fluoxetine in return for them conducting a 3 clinical trial on a smaller number of people? Do 4 you see where I'm getting at? 5 A. No. 6 Q. Okay. 7 A. I think the answer is no to 8 your question, but I'm still not sure I 9 understand. 10 Q. Okay. To your knowledge, has 11 Lilly conducted a study on, and I mean an 12 institution wide study, say you have a not for 13 profit hospital, okay, to your knowledge has 14 Lilly conducted a study on the general use of 15 Fluoxetine within an institution, prescribing 16 habits of doctors, patients' efficacy 17 information, patients' compliance information, 18 things of that nature, in return for providing 19 that institution generally with Fluoxetine? 20 A. Again only as it would be part 21 of a protocol on a specific clinical trial. 22 Q. Okay. Not necessarily a 23 marketing study or something of that nature? 24 A. No. Page 89 1 Q. What -- tell me about your 2 responsibilities or your experiences in the 3 marketing training program that you participated 4 in in the spring, starting in the spring of 1967 5 to the fall of 1968? 6 MR. MYERS: Did you say marketing or 7 management. 8 Q. Management, I'm sorry. 9 A. I had three six-months 10 assignments in different parts of the company. 11 Q. Generally what was the purpose 12 of the management training program? 13 A. To provide me with exposure to 14 different functions of the company, and to give 15 me the opportunity to develop management skills. 16 Q. Develop what? 17 A. Management skills. 18 Q. What were the three areas of 19 the company that you were trained in? 20 A. I worked in liquid ointment 21 production, I worked in market research, and I 22 worked in corporate personnel. 23 Q. Okay. When you say you worked 24 in liquid ointment production, were you actually Page 90 1 involved in the production of the product? 2 A. I was a supervisor in the 3 production department. 4 Q. I take it that in that three 5 month period, you were not exposed to the 6 production of Fluoxetine or the marketing of 7 Fluoxetine, were you? 8 A. In the six months I was there 9 we did not manufacture Fluoxetine. 10 Q. Did any of your 11 responsibilities as supervisor in the liquid 12 ointment production relate in any way to 13 Fluoxetine? 14 A. No. 15 Q. How about market research? 16 A. Market research, I was manager 17 of market research and I cannot recall the 18 specific product or projects we were involved in 19 at that time. 20 Q. Do you recall whether or not 21 any of your responsibilities in that six month 22 period in market research related in any way to 23 Fluoxetine? 24 A. I can recall that they did Page 91 1 not. 2 Q. How about corporate personnel, 3 what did you do in that capacity? 4 A. I was responsible for creating 5 an adult education program and for recruiting 6 efforts, corporate recruiting efforts. 7 Q. When you say adult education 8 program what do you mean? 9 A. High school equivalency 10 programs for people that did not have high school 11 degrees. 12 Q. Lilly employees? 13 A. Lilly employees. 14 Q. Did any of your 15 responsibilities in the corporate personnel 16 department relate in any way to Fluoxetine? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Tell me about your experience 19 as a product manager in oral antibiotics, but 20 generally, you don't have to discuss any 21 particular products. 22 A. Responsible for developing the 23 introductory campaign for a new oral antibiotic. 24 Q. Is the -- when you say a Page 92 1 product manager, are you talking about a 2 marketing position? 3 A. It's a, what we refer to as 4 marketing plans. 5 Q. What area of the company was 6 that? 7 A. Reports in to the marketing 8 component. 9 Q. And is that true for the 10 Fluoxetine marketing plans also? 11 A. That's correct. 12 Q. What types of things would you 13 do to develop introductory campaign for a product 14 that you worked on, generally? 15 A. Market research to determine 16 the types of materials that would be required for 17 promotion of the drug to physicians, and to sell 18 the product in hospitals and pharmacies, general 19 advertising, sampling. 20 Q. Anything else? 21 A. That's pretty much it. 22 Q. Did you work on any 23 psychotropic drugs when you were a project 24 manager? Page 93 1 A. No. 2 Q. Who did you report to when you 3 were a project manager? 4 A. Mister Ralph Segall. 5 Q. Could you spell the last name? 6 A. S-E-G-A-L-L. 7 Q. Is Mister Segall still with 8 the company? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Do you know when he left the 11 company? 12 A. I don't recall when he 13 retired, sometime ago. 14 Q. Do you know where he is today? 15 A. In Indianapolis. 16 Q. To your knowledge, did Mister 17 Segall ever have responsibility related in any 18 way to Fluoxetine? 19 A. Not to my knowledge. 20 Q. Describe for me your 21 responsibilities as a district sales manager in 22 Brooklyn. 23 A. I managed the selling 24 activities of approximately eighteen sales Page 94 1 representatives in Brooklyn. 2 Q. What type of products did you 3 manage at that time? 4 A. Basically the -- a listing of 5 products that I gave you before, I can go through 6 them again if you'd like me to. 7 Q. You're talking about the 8 antibiotics, vitamins and various psychotropic 9 drugs? 10 A. Yes. They were still 11 available at that time. 12 Q. Is Aventyl on the market, to 13 your knowledge? 14 A. Aventyl is still on the 15 market, yes. 16 Q. During the time that you were 17 a district sales manager, to your knowledge, was 18 the sales force asked to elicit adverse event 19 information from customers that they sold or 20 detailed to? 21 A. The sales representives were 22 not asked to elicit adverse events. In the event 23 the physicians provided such information, we 24 would take it and make sure it was passed on to Page 95 1 Indianapolis. 2 Q. Was that procedure, to your 3 knowledge, similar to when you were a salesman? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. In other words they would put 6 the doctor in contact with somebody at the 7 medical division? 8 A. Or report the information 9 directly to medical with the doctor's name, et 10 cetera, so that medical could contact the -- 11 Q. Name and what? 12 A. Name, et cetera -- so that the 13 medical could contact the doctor. 14 Q. When you went from a district 15 sales manager to assistant director of sales in 16 Boston was that a promotion? 17 A. Yes, it was. 18 Q. What did you do as an 19 assistant director of sales at Boston? 20 A. Directed the efforts of seven 21 district managers and their sales representatives 22 in the New England area. 23 Q. Okay. Could you describe for 24 me some of your responsibilities as a district Page 96 1 sales manager in Brooklyn, more specifically 2 other than managing, I believe you said eight or 3 eighteen? 4 A. Eighteen. 5 Q. Sales reps? 6 A. Training sales 7 representatives, evaluating their performance, 8 developing promotional programs, reporting 9 results to sales manager. 10 Q. When you were -- I'm sorry, 11 I'm jumping around a little bit here, but bear 12 with me. But when you were a sales rep in Utah, 13 how were you paid, was that a commission based? 14 A. No, salary. 15 Q. How about when you were a 16 district sales manager in Brooklyn, how 17 were you sales reps paid? 18 A. Sales reps are, were and are, 19 paid a salary, and participate in a company wide 20 bonus program at the end of each year. 21 Q. What is that bonus program 22 called? 23 A. It's called contingent 24 compensation. Page 97 1 Q. Was contingent compensation in 2 existence when you were a sales rep? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Describe for me how that bonus 5 program works, generally. 6 A. There is a preestablished grid 7 of sales and profits that the corporation reports 8 each year, and based on the results, 9 corporate-wide of the company, employees are 10 provided a percentage of their base pay as a 11 bonus. 12 Q. When you say that there is a 13 preestablished grid of sales and profits, what do 14 you mean? 15 A. The company has a plan, a 16 business plan, that is established as goals for a 17 given calendar year, and the grid is based on 18 achieving that plan and those results. 19 Q. Okay. Is this grid something 20 that's done by product-by-product basis? 21 A. No. It's done corporate wide 22 for the total operations of the firm. 23 Q. Are the employees privy to 24 these goals? Page 98 1 A. The employees are furnished 2 with the grid so that they understand based on 3 results what percentage of their base pay could 4 become a bonus, yes. 5 Q. So the percentage could 6 fluctuate depending on how well or how poorly the 7 company does in a particular year? 8 A. That's correct. 9 Q. And is that performance 10 evaluated by comparing what the goals were set 11 earlier in the year as opposed to the actual 12 performance? 13 A. The grid is based on so much 14 performance over and above the plan, and based on 15 how far the results exceed the plan, then there's 16 a percentage assigned to the results. 17 Q. Is there a provision that if 18 the company doesn't at least meet the plan, there 19 would be no CC checks? 20 A. There would be no contingent 21 compensation if we do not reach an acceptable 22 level of performance, that's correct. 23 Q. Who determines what's an 24 acceptable level of performance? Page 99 1 A. The board of directors sets 2 the goals and the grid, to the best of my 3 knowledge, I think they're the ones, but I 4 couldn't tell you for sure. 5 Q. Have there been years where 6 you have not received a CC check? 7 A. I believe so. 8 Q. On how many occasions to your 9 recollection have you not received a CC check? 10 A. I can recall at least one 11 time, but I can't recall any more than that. 12 Q. Do you remember when that one 13 time was? 14 A. No. 15 Q. Was it before or after Prozac 16 was marketed to your knowledge? 17 A. I can't recall. 18 Q. How were the percentages of 19 the checks been since Prozac has been on the 20 market? 21 A. I'm sorry? 22 Q. I'm not talking actual 23 numbers, but I mean how had the company's goals 24 as opposed to performance gone since Prozac has Page 100 1 been on the market, generally? 2 A. I can't recall. We've -- in 3 the last five years we've had good years and not 4 so good years, but I can't recall specifically. 5 Q. What types of training 6 programs would you have conducted as a district 7 salesman? 8 A. There would be materials and 9 programs that would have been originated in 10 Indianapolis that would have been sent out to me 11 that I would have used. And I would have had 12 informal sessions with the representatives for 13 training purposes. 14 Q. Were these training programs 15 something that was specific to the products that 16 were being sold or were these general training 17 programs? 18 A. Could be both. 19 Q. Give me a general example of 20 the types of things that would be trained in a 21 product specific training program? 22 A. A new product launch, a new 23 indication for a drug, a new package size or 24 strength would have been an opportunity to have Page 101 1 product specific materials. 2 Q. What types of training would 3 the salesmen receive in connection with the new 4 product launch? 5 A. There would be, depending on 6 the product and the disease area, there would be 7 information on the disease and its treatment, 8 diagnosis and treatment. There would be 9 information on the products that are used to 10 treat that disease. And there would be 11 information on the Lilly product that was used in 12 the treatment of the disease. 13 Q. So the sales people would get 14 information on other products that were on the 15 market to treat the disease other than products 16 manufactured by Lilly? 17 A. That would be correct. 18 Q. Were you involved in the 19 development of any training programs for the 20 sales forces related to the launch of Fluoxetine? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. What training programs were 23 you involved in? Was there more than one 24 training program that was developed with regards Page 102 1 to the launch? 2 A. Yes. Your last question was 3 whether in multiple programs, the answer is yes. 4 My involvement was not to actually develop the 5 programs but to participate in the decisions of 6 the type of programs that were going to be 7 developed and implemented. 8 Q. Okay. How many programs were 9 developed and implemented with regards to the 10 launch of Fluoxetine? 11 A. Probably somewhere between 12 three and six programs. 13 Q. Could you list those for me? 14 A. I'm sorry? 15 Q. Could you list those for me to 16 the best of your recollection? 17 A. To the best of my 18 recollection, there was program learning on the 19 disease, competitive products and Prozac. There 20 was training programs developed for the actual 21 presentation of the product to physicians. There 22 was educational programs developed for 23 representatives calling on psychiatrists, a 24 program at Massachusetts General Hospital and Page 103 1 another program with the carrier foundation. 2 Q. Carrier, C-A-R-R-I-E-R? 3 A. Uh-huh. 4 Q. You have to say yes. 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Okay. Now these are all 7 separate programs? 8 A. Excuse me, one other program, 9 which was a series of program learning modules on 10 a variety of mental illnesses and the treatments 11 of those illnesses that was provided to all of 12 the sales representatives. 13 Q. Were these, the series of 14 learning modules on various mental illnesses 15 required by Lilly? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And were all these mental 18 illnesses related to Fluoxetine? 19 A. No. 20 Q. Psychotropic drugs that were 21 produced by Lilly in general? 22 A. No. 23 Q. What was the purpose of the 24 series of the learning modules on the mental Page 104 1 illnesses, various mental illnesses? 2 A. To provide representatives 3 with basic background information and 4 understanding of the various mental illnesses 5 that physicians would encounter. 6 Q. When you say physicians, you 7 mean mental health professionals or physicians in 8 general? 9 A. I'm talking about physicians 10 in general. 11 Q. Do you recall which mental 12 illnesses those were? 13 A. They would include 14 schizophrenia, anxiety disorders, different forms 15 of depression. 16 Q. Any others? 17 A. Psychotic diseases, different 18 psychoses. 19 Q. Anything else? 20 A. Not to my knowledge. 21 Q. Which different forms of 22 depression? 23 A. Major depression, dysthymia, 24 manic depression. Page 105 1 Q. Any others? 2 A. Post partum depression. 3 Q. Anything else? 4 A. I can't recall any others. 5 Q. How about sub-syndromal 6 syndrome, have you ever heard of that? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. What is sub-syndromal 9 syndrome? 10 A. I'm sorry? 11 Q. What is sub-syndromal syndrome 12 to the best of your knowledge? 13 A. To the best of my knowledge, 14 because I'm not a physician, but my understanding 15 is that this is when a person suffers the lack of 16 function that is associated with depression but 17 does not exhibit all of the symptoms that are 18 included in the DSM-3R diagnosis. 19 Q. When you say DSM-3R diagnosis, 20 you mean a DSM-3R diagnosis of major depressive 21 disorders? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. What do you mean by lack of 24 function associated with depression, function in Page 106 1 what way? 2 A. Lack of ability to carry out 3 daily normal functions as a person. 4 Q. Can you give me an example of 5 a situation where a person would be unable to 6 function but not exhibiting the classic symptoms 7 or all the classic symptoms of major depressive 8 disorder? 9 A. You just described it. It's a 10 person who because of lack of sleep or lack of 11 energy doesn't have normal function but doesn't 12 have all of the classic symptoms that's 13 associated with major depression. 14 Q. Somebody suffering from 15 insomnia would be considered as suffering, but 16 not any other -- 17 A. We're beyond my expertise. 18 Q. Okay. Was there a learning 19 module created on sub-syndromal syndrome? 20 A. No, not to my knowledge. 21 Q. Are there plans to create a 22 learning module on sub-syndromal syndrome? 23 A. Not to my knowledge. 24 Q. When did Lilly start offering Page 107 1 these learning modules to their sales force? 2 A. In 1988 -- excuse me, the 3 original modules would have been in 1987, the 4 modules involving the other diseases were, was in 5 1988. 6 Q. Okay. When you say the 7 original module, you mean the major depression? 8 A. The modules focusing on 9 depression, its treatment and Prozac in 1987. 10 Q. And it's your testimony that 11 the other modules such as schizophrenia, anxiety 12 disorders, and psychotic diseases were not 13 created and offered to the sales force in 14 conjunction with selling or detailing any 15 particular Lilly drug? 16 A. That is correct. 17 Q. Were all sales people required 18 to take these learning modules regardless of the 19 drugs that they were detailing? 20 A. Only those sales 21 representatives who were involved in the 22 promotion of Prozac. 23 Q. How about other psychotropic 24 drugs manufactured and marketed by Lilly, were Page 108 1 those detail people required to take these 2 learning modules? 3 A. We only have one psychotropic 4 drug under active promotion and that's Prozac. 5 Q. How about Aventyl? 6 A. The only product under active 7 promotion is Prozac. 8 Q. Is Aventyl still on the 9 market? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. So when you say it's not under 12 active promotion, it isn't being detailed at this 13 time? 14 A. That's correct. 15 MS. ZETTLER: Do you want to take 16 lunch? 17 MR. MYERS: Sure. 18 (A LUNCH BREAK WAS TAKEN) 19 Q. (BY MS. ZETTLER) Mister 20 Tauscher, before lunch, we talked really briefly 21 about Doctor Fawcett, you mentioned his name I 22 think is about it. Do you remember that? 23 A. Mentioned his name, yes. 24 Q. Who is Doctor Jan Fawcett? Page 109 1 A. Jan Fawcett is a psychiatrist 2 in Chicago. 3 Q. And what connection to Lilly 4 does he have, if any? 5 A. Doctor Fawcett has served as a 6 consultant for the company. He -- I don't know 7 if he still is but he at one time was a member of 8 a psychiatric advisory board that we used within 9 the marketing component. 10 Q. Okay. 11 A. And he has been a speaker at a 12 number of symposiums that we have been part of. 13 Q. I'm sorry, a number of 14 symposiums that? 15 A. Symposium that we have been 16 part of, in other words that we've supported. 17 Q. Anything else? 18 A. I think that's pretty well. 19 Q. To your knowledge, has Doctor 20 Fawcett ever performed a clinical trial on 21 Fluoxetine on behalf of Lilly? 22 A. He very well could have but I 23 don't know that for a fact. 24 Q. To your knowledge, has he Page 110 1 performed clinical trials on any other Lilly 2 manufactured drugs? 3 A. He could have, but I don't 4 know. 5 Q. When you say he was a 6 consultant, consultant on what? 7 A. Doctor Fawcett was asked to 8 review our clinical data as it related to the 9 subject of suicidality. 10 Q. Was that the U.S. data as well 11 as the O.U.S. data? 12 A. I have no idea what clinical 13 information that he was asked to comment on. I 14 just know that he was, that was one of the 15 consultant projects that I was a aware of. 16 Q. Okay. Any other consultant 17 projects that you are aware of that he was 18 involved in? 19 A. No, not any that I have 20 specific knowledge of. 21 Q. Did he consult with Lilly to 22 your knowledge on the issue of suicide, 23 generally? 24 A. Yes. Page 111 1 Q. Did he consult with Lilly to 2 your knowledge on the issue of violent/aggressive 3 behavior, generally? 4 A. I don't know. 5 Q. How about violent aggressive 6 behavior as it relates to the use of Fluoxetine? 7 A. I don't know. 8 Q. Besides the clinical trial 9 data review on suicidality, and acting as a 10 consultant generally on suicide, has Doctor 11 Fawcett acted as a consultant in any other manner 12 for Lilly as far as you know? 13 A. The psychiatric advisory board 14 that I described, which was a marketing 15 consultant panel, and I'm not aware of any other 16 projects. 17 Q. Doctor Fawcett spoke on behalf 18 of Lilly at the FDA drug advisory committee 19 meeting in September of 1991, correct? 20 A. I know that Doctor Fawcett was 21 one of the consultants that the company brought 22 in to that hearing. I do not recall specifically 23 if he was given the opportunity to speak or not. 24 Q. Who else acted as a consultant Page 112 1 or speaker at the advisory committee meeting in 2 September of 1991, who had connections with Lilly 3 to your knowledge? 4 A. I recall Doctor Gary 5 Tollefson, who is an employee of the company 6 speaking. I do not recall any other physicians 7 participating in the scientific presentations, 8 per se. 9 Q. Okay. How about Doctor 10 Nemeroff, do you know Doctor Nemeroff? 11 A. I know Doctor Charles 12 Nemeroff. I do not recall any specifics about 13 his participation. That doesn't mean that he 14 wasn't there, but I don't recall. 15 Q. Okay. Explain to me what the 16 psychiatric advisory board was to the marketing 17 department? 18 A. At the time prior to the 19 launch, to the introduction of Prozac, in order 20 to make sure that we were, had a good grounding 21 and understanding of the practice of psychiatry 22 as it applied to depression and to other mental 23 disorders and to make sure that our materials 24 were relevant and understandable and to provide Page 113 1 us with just general insight and comment on the 2 treatment of mental illnesses, we created a group 3 of psychiatrists to meet with us on occasion to 4 advise us on the matters just described. 5 Q. Okay. Who else was on this 6 advisory board? 7 A. I don't recall everyone, but 8 to the best of my recollection, Doctor Allen 9 Shatsberg, Doctor David Dunner, Doctor Peter 10 Stokes, Doctor Jerry Rosenbaum, Doctor John Rush, 11 Doctor Gary Tollefson was on the board, Doctor 12 Nemeroff has been part of the group, Doctor 13 Dennis Charney has been part of the group, Doctor 14 Burt Goldstein. 15 Q. Burton Goldstein? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Anyone else? 18 A. Those are the only people I 19 recall. 20 Q. Is Doctor -- 21 A. Excuse me, Jan Fawcett. 22 Q. Was Doctor Tollefson an 23 employee of Lilly at the time he acted on the 24 psychiatric -- Page 114 1 A. No, he was not. 2 Q. Please let me finish my 3 question. 4 A. Sorry. 5 Q. That's okay. So Doctor 6 Tollefson was not an employee of Lilly at the 7 time that he acted as a member of the psychiatric 8 advisory board? 9 A. That is correct. 10 Q. When did he become an employee 11 of Lilly? 12 A. I don't recall specifically. 13 Q. Are you aware that at a 14 certain point in time after Doctor Teicher's 15 article came out that Lilly asked outside doctors 16 to act as point men so to speak for the press on 17 issues of Prozac and suicidality? 18 MR. MYERS: I object to the form and 19 the term point men being awfully vague. I'm not 20 quite sure what -- 21 Q. To deal with press issues, 22 answer questions. 23 A. Could you start over? 24 Q. Sure. Are you aware that Page 115 1 sometime after Doctor Teicher's article came out, 2 that Lilly asked some outside psychiatrists to 3 act as spokespeople or deal with press issues 4 that arose as a result of Doctor Teicher's 5 article? 6 A. We asked physicians to deal 7 with questions that emerged in the press on the 8 subject of suicidality. We did not ask 9 physicians to serve as spokespersons. 10 Q. Okay. Why is it that you went 11 to physicians outside of Lilly to ask them to, I 12 believe you said answer questions on Prozac? 13 A. These were media questions 14 that could occur in different parts of the 15 country and where the press with due dates and 16 press times needed responses quickly and rapidly. 17 The best way to accomodate their inquiries was to 18 do it on a local basis. 19 Q. Was the press made aware that 20 these people were asked to respond to their 21 questions by Lilly? 22 A. If in fact the press asked 23 such questions about the nature of their 24 answering questions, yes. Page 116 1 Q. If the press did not ask if 2 these people were asked to respond to questions 3 by Lilly would they be told that up front? 4 A. Not necessarily, to my 5 knowledge. 6 Q. Who were the people that were 7 asked to respond to media questions around the 8 country? 9 A. I don't recall the names of 10 individuals. 11 Q. How about Doctor David Dunner, 12 was he asked? 13 A. He could have been. 14 Q. How about Doctor Fawcett, was 15 he asked? 16 A. He could have been. 17 Q. How many such people were 18 asked to respond to media questions around the 19 country to your knowledge? 20 A. There may have been as many as 21 maybe twenty physicians who were asked if they 22 would be willing to respond if called upon. 23 Q. Were these people compensated 24 by Lilly in any way for their role as media? Page 117 1 A. No. 2 Q. When was the psychiatric 3 advisory board to the marketing department 4 created? 5 A. It was created prior to the 6 launch of the product. 7 Q. Do you remember how long 8 prior? 9 A. I would imagine somewhere 10 between six to twelve months. 11 Q. How long was it in existence? 12 A. It is in existence today, so 13 that would be six years. 14 Q. Okay. Are these people who 15 are listed for me earlier, are they all currently 16 still members of the board? 17 A. Not necessarily. 18 Q. Who is not now a member of the 19 board of that list? 20 A. I'm not sure. 21 Q. Do you know if any of these 22 people that you listed are definitely still 23 members of the board or currently members of the 24 board? Page 118 1 A. I don't have a knowledge of 2 the exact roster of today's group. 3 Q. Who would know that? 4 A. The product manager for the 5 drug. 6 Q. Who is that currently? 7 A. Jim Lancaster. 8 Q. On how many occasions has 9 Doctor Fawcett spoken at symposiums supported by 10 Lilly? 11 A. I have no idea. 12 Q. Has he participated in the 13 McLean symposium? 14 A. I'm sorry? 15 Q. Has he participated in the 16 McLean symposium? 17 A. I don't recall if he has or 18 has not. 19 Q. Were the members of the 20 psychiatric advisory board compensated for their 21 work as a member of the board? 22 A. They received a honorarium for 23 the time away from their practice for meetings 24 that were held. Page 119 1 Q. Is that the same amount across 2 the board? 3 A. I'm sorry? 4 Q. Were they paid the same amount 5 across the board? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Do you recall what the amount 8 of that honorarium was or is? 9 A. No, I do not. 10 Q. Who would know that? 11 A. Jim Lancaster. 12 Q. Was Doctor Fawcett compensated 13 for his role as a consultant for Lilly? 14 A. I have no idea. 15 Q. Do you know of anyone who's 16 acted as a consultant who was paid for their work 17 as a consultant at Lilly? 18 A. I don't. 19 Q. Have any of these other people 20 that you've listed that were members or are 21 members of the psychiatric advisory board, have 22 any of these people worked as a consultant for 23 Lilly in any other manner besides Doctor Fawcett? 24 A. I can't say that they have or Page 120 1 have not, because I don't have any definite 2 knowledge. 3 Q. How about Doctor Nemeroff, do 4 you know if he's acted as a consultant? 5 A. No. My statement is for all 6 of the physicians, I'm not sure if they have or 7 have not. 8 MR. MYERS: He did tell you earlier, I 9 think that Shatsbert and Stokes were involved in 10 some written materials. I don't know whether 11 that was consulting or not. 12 Q. Putting together the -- 13 A. Yes, that kind of consultant, 14 yes. 15 Q. To your knowledge, has Lilly 16 ever paid members of the National Institutes of 17 Mental Health to act as consultants or speakers? 18 A. I'm not sure these individuals 19 are part of the National Institutes of Mental 20 Health, they may be. There are guidelines by 21 which federal employees are allowed to 22 participate in symposia, and I do know that we 23 have utilized those guidelines in contacting 24 federal employees. I've got a vague recollection Page 121 1 that there have been people from the National 2 Institutes of Mental Health, one individual that 3 I can think of. 4 Q. Okay. Who is that? 5 A. That would be Doctor Robert 6 Hirshfield. 7 Q. How about Fred Goodwin? 8 A. I know Fred Goodwin, but I 9 don't recall that he's ever been asked to do what 10 you described in your question. 11 Q. You said that there are 12 federal guidelines under which government 13 employees can act as speakers in symposia. 14 A. That they can participate in 15 symposia as speakers. 16 Q. Where are those guidelines 17 found? 18 A. They could be found within our 19 legal division. 20 Q. Are these federal guidelines 21 or Lilly guidelines? 22 A. No, Lilly has its own 23 guidelines in terms of how we deal with speakers 24 but these are federal guidelines. Page 122 1 Q. Do you know where these 2 federal guidelines are as far as not necessarily 3 at Lilly but where they would be found? 4 A. In the legal division. 5 Q. I mean outside of Lilly do you 6 know, outside of Lilly do you know where, under 7 which governmental entity these guidelines are 8 put out? 9 A. No. 10 Q. In what situations has Lilly 11 enlisted the help of Doctor or Robert Hirshfield 12 as a participant in a symposia? 13 A. Doctor Hirshfield was a 14 speaker at a psychiatric meeting in Washington, 15 DC. As I recall it was shortly after the 16 introduction of Prozac. 17 Q. How do you spell Hirshfield? 18 A. H-I-R-S-H-F-I-E-L-D. 19 Q. Do you recall what subject 20 Doctor Hirshfield spoke on? 21 A. As I recall, Doctor Hirshfield 22 talked on the DSM-3R, the diagnostic manual for 23 diagnosing depression. 24 Q. Let's go back for a second to Page 123 1 the Lilly sponsored depression education programs 2 that were, that we talked about earlier, okay? 3 A. Okay. 4 Q. You told us earlier that there 5 was a group that was put together by Lilly to 6 consult on various psychiatric issues prior to 7 various programs that Lilly put together or 8 participated in on depression education, correct? 9 A. If you're referring to the 10 panel of people who developed the initial 11 program, yes. 12 Q. Okay. Was this panel put 13 together in conjunction with the Depression 14 Awareness Campaign that Lilly participated in 15 with the National Mental Health Association? 16 A. No. 17 Q. Did Lilly consult with that 18 panel or any other group or person with regards 19 to the information that has been distributed to 20 the public through that program, the National 21 Institutes of Mental Health program? 22 A. Could you repeat that for me? 23 Q. Sure. With regards to the 24 National Institutes of Mental Health program, the Page 124 1 Depression Awareness Campaign we talked about 2 earlier, National Awareness Campaign on 3 Depression. 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Did Lilly consult with any 6 outside entity to get information to distribute 7 throughout that campaign? 8 A. The National Institutes of 9 Mental Health, being one of the supporters of the 10 campaign, participated in the development of the 11 campaign and the materials that were going to be 12 distributed. Lilly did not have anything to do 13 with that, this was all done by the National 14 Mental Health Association. 15 Q. So the information that was 16 distributed to the public through that campaign 17 originated with the National Mental Health 18 Association? 19 A. And the other sponsoring 20 organizations, yes. 21 Q. Did Lilly contribute in any 22 way to the information that was distributed 23 throughout that campaign? 24 A. As was requested by the Page 125 1 groups, yes. 2 Q. What types of information was 3 requested by the groups? 4 A. There were, as I recall, a 5 couple of brochures that we had developed on the 6 subject of depression that the organizations 7 asked us to supply extra copies for their use. 8 One of those would have been reprinting the D/ART 9 brochure from the National Institutes of Mental 10 Health. That would have been an example. 11 Q. What is the D/ART brochure? 12 A. The D/ART brochure is a public 13 education brochure that was developed by the NIMH 14 for part of their original D/ART campaign. 15 Q. Okay, did you say dart or 16 dark? 17 A. Dart. It's what we talked 18 about before, the D-A-R-T. 19 Q. I thought you said dark. 20 A. No, sorry. 21 Q. Did Lilly participate in 22 putting together the information that made up the 23 D/ART brochure on depression? 24 A. No. Page 126 1 Q. Any other brochures or written 2 materials that Lilly provided to the National 3 Mental Health Association at their request? 4 A. I don't recall. 5 (PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT NO. 1 WAS 6 MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION AND 7 RECEIVED IN EVIDENCE.) 8 Q. Have you had a chance to 9 review Exhibit 1? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Do you recognize this exhibit, 12 Mister Tauscher? 13 A. I'm familiar with the content, 14 the subject matter of the first three pages. I 15 don't necessarily remember the document, per se. 16 Q. Okay. Generally under the 17 federal guidelines, what are the circumstances 18 under which a government employee can participate 19 in a symposia that was funded or supported by a 20 drug company? 21 MR. MYERS: Well, before he answers, 22 let me just object to the form of the question on 23 the grounds that that question calls for some 24 legal conclusion drawn from either regulations or Page 127 1 guidelines which speak for themselves, and I 2 don't know that he's qualified to make that kind 3 of conclusion. I'll let him testify as to what 4 his understanding is. 5 MS. ZETTLER: That's all I'm asking, 6 is what his understanding is. 7 A. Would you like to please 8 repeat the question for me? 9 Q. Sure. What is your 10 understanding of under what circumstances a 11 government employee can participate in a drug 12 company's supported or funded symposium? 13 MR. MYERS: Same objection. Go ahead 14 and answer if you know. 15 A. I can't quote you all the 16 details because I would end up deferring to our 17 legal counsel to make sure that I was doing it 18 correctly. But under normal circumstances, if an 19 institution or a group that was creating a 20 symposia informed us that one of the proposed 21 speakers was a federal employee, that is, and I 22 cannot go any further than that to say that what 23 I would then do would be to contact our legal 24 group, and I would want to understand who the Page 128 1 employee was, where they worked, and what was the 2 subject that they were going to be presenting as 3 part of the symposia. And then we'd get advice 4 from the lawyers in terms of whether we could 5 support the meeting or not. In many cases, it 6 might be that we would be providing an 7 unrestricted grant to the university or group 8 putting on the symposium and they'd be paying the 9 physician and that would be one set of 10 circumstances. If we were writing the payment 11 ourselves, that would be another set of 12 circumstances. That's all I can tell you. 13 Q. Earlier you said you were 14 familiar with the subject matter of the first 15 three pages of Exhibit 1, correct? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Exhibit 1, at least the first 18 three pages, purports to be a memorandum by a 19 Douglass Tillman to John Heiligenstein and carbon 20 copied to Dan Masica, correct? 21 A. That's correct. 22 Q. And the subject of the 23 memoranda appears to be related to the National 24 Institutes of Mental Health speakers or Page 129 1 consultants, correct? 2 A. It says medical consultant of 3 scientific lecturing by NIH which is the National 4 Institutes of Health as well as the National 5 Institutes of Mental Health. 6 Q. Okay. To your understanding 7 under the guidelines, is it appropriate for a 8 government employee to act as a consultant to a 9 drug company? 10 MR. MYERS: Same objection as to some 11 technical interpretation of the regulations and 12 the guidelines which speak for themselves. But 13 if you know, tell her. 14 A. I don't know and I just wanted 15 to comment that this memo is not the federal 16 guidelines. 17 Q. Okay. Where did this memo 18 come from if it's not the federal guidelines, 19 what's the source of this memo to your knowledge? 20 A. If appears to have been 21 authored by Doug Tillman or our legal division. 22 Q. Have you been involved in a 23 situation at Lilly where members of either the 24 National Institutes of Health or the National Page 130 1 Institutes of Mental Health have acted as 2 consultants to Lilly? 3 A. No, not to my knowledge. 4 Q. To your knowledge, how does 5 the memorandum that's reflected in Exhibit 1 6 differ from the guidelines? 7 A. I can't comment. 8 Q. You just know that these are 9 not the guidelines that have been set out? 10 A. I just know that these are not 11 the guidelines, that's correct. 12 Q. Number two on the first page 13 says there must be no appearance of conflict of 14 interest, correct? 15 A. That's what it says. 16 Q. Have you been aware of a 17 situation where a governmental employee has acted 18 in conjunction with Lilly in some manner that 19 would present a conflict of interest? 20 A. Not to my knowledge. 21 Q. Do you know why this 22 memorandum was written? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Have you seen a copy of this Page 131 1 memorandum before? 2 A. Like I say, the subject matter 3 is familiar to me, I don't recall specifically 4 seeing this memo. 5 Q. In what context did this 6 subject matter become familiar to you? 7 A. In our attempts to understand 8 the procedures that we needed to follow in the 9 event that NIH or NIMH employees were to be 10 participants in symposia that the company was 11 supporting. 12 Q. Or act as consultants 13 according to the memo, correct? 14 A. My understanding of the topic 15 is as I described to you. 16 Q. So you're not aware of any 17 situation where it was proposed or considered 18 that employees of the National Institutes of 19 Health or National Institutes of Mental Health 20 would act as consultants for Lilly? 21 A. Not to my knowledge. 22 Q. Are you aware of any situation 23 where Lilly has directly paid an employee of 24 either the National Institutes of Health or Page 132 1 National Institutes of Mental Health an honoraria 2 for an appearance? 3 A. As I said before, Doctor 4 Robert Hirshfield, who at the time was an 5 employee of the National Institutes of Mental 6 Health, participated in the meeting supported by 7 the company. Whether we paid him directly or 8 whether he was paid by the sponsoring university, 9 I don't recall. 10 Q. To your knowledge, has Doctor 11 Goodwin ever been paid to act as a speaker or 12 consultant for Lilly? 13 A. I don't know. 14 Q. On the second page under nine, 15 it says Lilly will not list the employee's 16 affiliation with National Institites of Health or 17 National Institutes of Mental Health in product 18 promotion, do you see that? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. In what way would an employee 21 of either one of those governmental entities be 22 involved in product promotion? 23 MR. MYERS: Let me object to the form 24 because your question maybe assumes that it does. Page 133 1 I don't know that that's what that paragraph 2 means or not so I object to the form. 3 MS. ZETTLER: If he knows of a 4 situation? 5 MR. MYERS: Right. If you know, tell 6 her. 7 A. I don't know of any situation. 8 Q. The last paragraph, it says 9 Medical and Marketing will coordinate selection 10 of speakers and consultants to avoid excessive 11 use of NIH or NIMH employees, do you see that? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Who in Medical or Marketing 14 would coordinate, would do such coordination? 15 A. The product manager and the 16 speaker coordinator for our educational programs. 17 Q. Who's the speaker coordinator 18 in July of 1990 for Fluoxetine? 19 A. That would be Steve Davidson. 20 Q. Are you aware of a situation 21 where any employee of National Institutes of 22 Health or National Institute of Mental Health has 23 been consulted or consulted with Lilly on what 24 statements that employee should make on behalf of Page 134 1 either one of those governmental entities? 2 A. No. 3 Q. If Lilly were to consult or 4 talk with an employee of either one of those 5 entities to advise them on how they should 6 respond to questions related to Lilly drugs on 7 behalf of those governmental entities, would that 8 be appropriate in your opinion? 9 MR. MYERS: Well, before he answers, 10 let me object to the form because that may or may 11 not call for some interpretation and some 12 regulations or guidelines which speak for 13 themselves. If you Have an opinion and you know, 14 tell her. 15 MS. ZETTLER: I'm asking him for his 16 personal opinion. 17 MR. MYERS: Right. 18 A. I don't understand the 19 question. 20 Q. Okay. Say Fred Goodwin was 21 going to make a statement on behalf of the 22 National Institutes of Mental Health regarding 23 Prozac and the controversy around Prozac and 24 suicidality, okay? Page 135 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And say that before he made 3 that statement, he consulted with somebody at 4 Lilly on what he should say or how he should 5 present that position on behalf of the National 6 Institute of Mental Health. In your opinion, 7 would that be appropriate? 8 MR. MYERS: Before he answers, same 9 objection plus to the extent it's a hypothetical, 10 it doesn't provide enough facts to form the basis 11 of an informed opinion. But if you know, tell 12 her. 13 A. I have no opinion in the 14 matter. 15 Q. You have no opinion either 16 way? 17 A. What you asked me is a 18 question that requires me to make a medical or a 19 legal interpretation which I'm not equipped to 20 do. 21 Q. You as a nonmedical and legal 22 person, do you think its appropriate for a 23 governmental agency to consult with a 24 manufacturer of a product on a statement that is Page 136 1 going to be made on behalf of that governmental 2 agency with regards to a controversy surrounding 3 that product? 4 MR. MYERS: Same objection. Answer it 5 again, I guess. 6 A. I have no opinion. 7 Q. Why not? 8 A. First of all, I resent the 9 question being asked of me and secondly the 10 question is vague and misleading. 11 Q. Vague and misleading how? 12 I'll attempt to clarify it if you feel it's 13 vague. 14 A. Feel free to do so. 15 Q. I need to know what it is 16 that's vague about it. If you can tell me what 17 you feel is vague about the question then maybe I 18 can correct it. 19 A. I don't understand on what 20 basis you're suggesting hypothetically that 21 employees would be consulting with the company. 22 Q. You mean why would it be that 23 the employee would be consulting with the 24 company? Page 137 1 A. What would be the basis of 2 asking the question of the company? 3 Q. I'll assume that it's a -- the 4 employee wants to get the input from the drug 5 company before it makes a statement on behalf of 6 the governmental entity. 7 MR. MYERS: Well, same objection as 8 before. When you say the input, what input, and 9 I guess what is the issue, what is the question? 10 MS. ZETTLER: The question is, does he 11 feel it's appropriate for -- 12 MR. MYERS: No, that's not what I 13 meant. 14 MS. ZETTLER: What do you mean? 15 MR. MYERS: I meant, what is the 16 underlying question that the employee is being 17 asked, not what if he thinks it's appropriate. 18 You simply asked him in the abstract. 19 Q. On what position the 20 governmental agency should take on a controversy 21 surrounding the drug manufacturer's product, if 22 an NIMH employee were to consult with Lilly to 23 ask them what position NIMH should take on a 24 controversy surrounding one of Lilly's products, Page 138 1 do you feel that that would be appropriate? 2 MR. MYERS: Same set of objections. I 3 think you changed the question too. 4 MS. ZETTLER: Maybe I clarified it. 5 A. I have no opinion. 6 Q. Why not? 7 A. Because of the nature of your 8 question. 9 Q. Is it that you have no opinion 10 or that you're afraid to give an opinion, Mister 11 Tauscher? 12 MR. MYERS: Don't answer that. He 13 told you he didn't have an opinion. Don't argue 14 with him. 15 Q. I'm not arguing with him. I'm 16 trying to clarify what his problem is with being 17 able to give an opinion on that question. 18 MR. MYERS: And he said quite clearly 19 on more than one occasion that he had no opinion. 20 That's -- 21 MS. ZETTLER: He also said it's 22 because -- on the basis of my question, and I'm 23 trying to find out what it is about my question 24 that prevents him from having an opinion. Page 139 1 MR. MYERS: I think he told you that 2 about two or three questions ago. 3 MS. ZETTLER: As you pointed out 4 yourself, Larry, you wanted a different question 5 though. 6 Q. What is it about my current 7 question that renders you unable to have an 8 opinion on it? 9 A. Could you please repeat your 10 question? 11 Q. The original question? 12 A. The question that you're 13 asking for me to respond to. 14 Q. If an NIMH employee were to 15 approach Eli Lilly to discuss what the NIMH's 16 position should be on a controversy surrounding 17 one of Lilly's products, do you feel that that 18 would be appropriate? 19 MR. MYERS: Same objection. If you 20 know or have an opinion, tell her, and if you 21 don't, tell her that. 22 A. Under the right set of 23 circumstances it would be appropriate. 24 Q. Under what circumstances? Page 140 1 A. If the agency was seeking 2 information to understand all of the data 3 surrounding the controversy. 4 Q. Are you aware of any situation 5 where that has occurred, an employee of a 6 governmental agency has approached Lilly 7 regarding what position they should take on a 8 controversy surrounding a Lilly product under the 9 situation that you just set out? 10 A. I am not. 11 Q. Can you give me an example of 12 what you mean by the agency wanting to understand 13 all the data surrounding the controversy? 14 A. Clinical data that the 15 individual may not have access to. 16 Q. Can you think of any other 17 situation where it would be appropriate for a 18 governmental employee to approach a drug company 19 about a position that the governmental agency 20 should take regarding a controversy surrounding 21 that drug company's product other than the one 22 you already told us about? 23 A. No. 24 Q. In your career at Lilly, have Page 141 1 you been involved with either writing or 2 approving standby statements on various issues 3 surrounding Lilly products? 4 A. I have been involved in the 5 drafting and reviewing of such statements, yes. 6 Q. Have you been involved in the 7 drafting or reviewing of such statements as they 8 relate to Prozac? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And which standby statements 11 have you been involved in? 12 A. Numerous ones. 13 Q. Can you give me some examples? 14 A. Standby statements with regard 15 to topics like suicidality, dosage, new product 16 entries that would give you the spectrum of 17 topics. 18 Q. How about violent/aggressive 19 behavior? 20 A. I don't recall specifically 21 but that could have been. 22 Q. How about the Joseph Wesbecker 23 incident? 24 A. I don't recall specifically. Page 142 1 Q. Tell me what you know about 2 the Joseph Wesbecker incident. 3 A. An employee of a company in 4 Louisville entering the place of business and 5 shooting people. 6 Q. How did you come to that 7 understanding or that knowledge? 8 A. Through the press. 9 Q. You didn't come to any of that 10 knowledge through your employment at Lilly? 11 A. Through the press as I have 12 been employed by Lilly, but through the press. 13 Q. In your career at Lilly, have 14 you done any work related directly or indirectly 15 to the Joseph Wesbecker incident? 16 A. Probably indirectly. 17 Q. Okay. Can you give me an 18 example of what you would have done indirectly? 19 A. Standby statements, the 20 drafting and review, notifying our other 21 employees of the incident. Those would be two 22 examples. 23 Q. Have you personally contacted 24 or corresponded in any way with anybody in Page 143 1 Louisville that has been related to that 2 incident, such as the coroner in Louisville or 3 any of the victims of Joseph Wesbecker? 4 A. No. 5 Q. How about Doctor Coleman, 6 Joseph Wesbecker's psychiatrist? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Please describe for me 9 generally how a physician statement is 10 formulated. 11 MR. MYERS: You mean a standby 12 statement? 13 MS. ZETTLER: Yes, I'm sorry, a 14 standby statement. 15 Q. What's the process that is 16 gone through at Lilly to create a standby 17 statement? 18 A. The corporate affairs group 19 are responsible for drafting and circulating 20 standby statements for review and approval by 21 management, so they would draft the statement and 22 then circulate it for comment and approval. 23 Q. Who decides when a standby 24 statement is necessary? Page 144 1 A. Basically corporate affairs. 2 Q. I'm sorry, I forgot what you 3 told me earlier, have you ever been a member of 4 the corporate affairs department? 5 A. No. 6 Q. Do you recall standby 7 statements being drafted after the Teicher 8 article was published? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Who at corporate affairs was 11 responsible for drafting the standby statements 12 as a result of the Teicher article, to your 13 knowledge? 14 A. Ed West is the director of 15 that group and it would have been in his 16 division. I'm not sure who would have been the 17 originator. 18 Q. Who were some of the other 19 member of corporate affairs under Ed West at that 20 time? 21 A. I don't recall. 22 Q. Ed West is still the director, 23 I believe you said. 24 A. Yes. Page 145 1 Q. To your knowledge, have there 2 been any standby statements that have been 3 written or created in response to the Joseph 4 Wesbecker incident? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Who was responsible for those 7 standby statements, to your knowledge? 8 A. Ed West. 9 Q. Are you familiar with those 10 standby statements, the ones related to 11 Wesbecker? 12 A. Not in detail today. 13 Q. Generally do you have a 14 recollection that they dealt in any way with 15 violent/aggressive behavior and the use of 16 Fluoxetine? 17 A. I don't recall. 18 Q. After corporate affairs drafts 19 and circulates proposed standby statements, what 20 happens to them? 21 A. The various functions of the 22 company are given the opportunity to comment, and 23 then the corporate affairs group will then draft 24 another form of the standby statement based on Page 146 1 the comment and then ask for final management 2 review and approval. 3 Q. Okay. Once it's gone through 4 the approval process and is approved, what is 5 done with the statement then, how is it used? 6 A. The statement is utilized by 7 corporate affairs to respond to media requests. 8 Q. Is the -- are the statements 9 used in any way by Lilly detail people, sales 10 people? 11 A. Sales representatives are not 12 given standby statements to use. 13 Q. All press inquiries come into 14 Lilly and go to the corporate affairs department? 15 A. They are referred to corporate 16 affairs. They can come into any group but 17 they're referred to corporate affairs. 18 Q. Was it policy at Lilly at or 19 about the beginning of 1990 that all news 20 inquiries would be sent to corporate affairs? 21 A. Yes. 22 (PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT NO. 2 WAS 23 MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION AND 24 RECEIVED IN EVIDENCE.) Page 147 1 Q. Have you had a chance to 2 review Exhibit 2? 3 A. Yes, I have. 4 Q. Do you recognize the documents 5 that make up Exhibit 2, Mister Tauscher? 6 A. Yes, I do. 7 Q. Can you tell me what they are? 8 A. They appear to be copies of 9 approved standby statements on several different 10 topics related to Prozac. 11 A. Okay. 12 Q. Did you participate in 13 drafting or review of any or all of these 14 statements? 15 A. I do not recall any of the 16 specific statements, per se, but the topics and 17 the timing are such that I would assume that I 18 was part of the review. 19 Q. When, to your knowledge, did 20 Lilly first hear from the Church of Scientology 21 or any of its entities related to Prozac? 22 A. I don't recall a specific date 23 when we had the first -- in fact, would you 24 please rephrase the question and make sure I Page 148 1 answer it correctly? 2 Q. Sure. When are you aware of 3 Lilly first being contacted by the Church of 4 Scientology or any of its entities related to 5 Prozac? 6 A. I do not know of any direct 7 contacts by the Church of Scientology directly to 8 Lilly. 9 Q. When did you first hear that 10 the Church of Scientology or any of its entities 11 were raising issues about the safety of Prozac? 12 A. That would have happened in 13 the last four years. 14 Q. Was it before or after Doctor 15 Teicher's article came out? 16 A. I don't recall. 17 Q. Was it sometime within that 18 time period? 19 A. If you describe that time 20 period of the twelve months preceeding and 21 following the Teicher publication, yes. 22 Q. So it was within a year before 23 or after? 24 A. Yes, and I don't recall which Page 149 1 it is. 2 Q. Okay. If you'd look at the 3 last two pages of Exhibit 2, do you see that? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. It's a standby statement dated 6 February 16th, 1990, correct? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And the subject is the Church 9 of Scientology's attack on Prozac? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Does that refresh your 12 recollection as to about the time when Lilly 13 first started hearing from the Church of 14 Scientology or hearing about the Church of 15 Scientology's objection to Prozac as being 16 unsafe? 17 A. No. That tells me that on the 18 16th of February, 1990, we had an approved 19 standby statement, but that doesn't mean that's 20 the first time there was ever any issue. 21 Q. Okay. But it would have been 22 sometime prior to this, correct? 23 A. I'm assuming it would be, yes. 24 Q. To your knowledge, prior to Page 150 1 the Church of Scientology's attack on Prozac, had 2 the Church of Scientology ever attacked any other 3 Lilly drugs? 4 A. Any other? 5 Q. Lilly drugs or products? 6 A. Not to my knowledge. 7 Q. Prior to hearing about the 8 Church of Scientology and their objection to 9 Prozac as being unsafe, had you ever heard of the 10 Church of Scientology before? 11 A. No. 12 Q. What is your understanding of 13 what the Church of Scientology is? 14 A. It is a religious cult. It 15 does not believe in psychiatry or psychotropic 16 medications. 17 Q. If you could turn back to the 18 first page of the exhibit. You see at the bottom 19 of the page, it's a standby, approved standby 20 statement dated February 27th, 1990, correct? 21 MR. MYERS: You mean at the top of the 22 page. 23 MS. ZETTLER: Yes, I'm sorry. 24 A. Yes, at the top of the page. Page 151 1 Q. At the bottom of the page it 2 says objectives, state that Prozac has an 3 excellent safety profile, and state that suicide 4 is a known risk among depressed patients. Do you 5 see that? 6 A. Yes, I do. 7 Q. Do you know where the drafter 8 of this statement got the information that 9 suicide is a known risk among depressed patients? 10 A. No, I do not. 11 Q. On the second page, the fourth 12 paragraph down it says, unfortunately, suicidal 13 thoughts as well as acts of suicide are known 14 risks among depressed patients. Based upon the 15 considerable clinical trial and post marketing 16 experience with Prozac, we see no trend that 17 suggests a causal relationship between our 18 product and this type of behavior. Do you see 19 that? 20 A. Yes, I do. 21 MR. MYERS: That's the third 22 paragraph. 23 Q. I'm sorry. I can't talk and I 24 can't count today. Do you know what efforts, Page 152 1 prior to February 27th, 1990, were done to review 2 the clinical trial data base at Lilly with 3 regards to suicidality? 4 A. No. 5 Q. Are you familiar with Doctor 6 Beasley's meta-analysis article on suicidality? 7 A. If you're referring to the 8 article published in the British Journal, yes. 9 Q. What is that article based on, 10 what information was that article based on to 11 your knowledge? 12 A. Clinical trial information, 13 but I can't tell you any specifics other than 14 that. 15 Q. Do you know when the analysis 16 of that clinical trial data was done? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Do you know if it was done 19 prior to February of 1990? 20 A. I don't recall. 21 Q. The third page of the exhibit, 22 it says question and answer at the top, do you 23 see that? 24 A. Yes. Page 153 1 Q. Is this part of the standard 2 approved statement or is this something that is 3 used for the sales people? 4 A. This is part of the approved 5 statement, and it would be used by corporate 6 affairs in responding to the questions that are 7 listed there in the event that the press asks 8 those questions. 9 Q. So just so I understand, if 10 the press asked questions similar to the ones 11 that are set out here, then these are the 12 responses that corporate affairs wanted to be 13 given? 14 A. Those would be the responses 15 corporate affairs would give, yes. 16 MS. ZETTLER: Do you want to take a 17 break? 18 MR. MEYERS: Sure, that would be fine. 19 (A SHORT RECESS WAS TAKEN.) 20 Q. Before 1990, were you aware of 21 any issue related to Fluoxetine and it causing 22 agitation in patients? 23 A. I was aware before 1990 that 24 Fluoxetine can cause agitation in patients. Page 154 1 Q. Okay. When did you first 2 become aware of that? 3 A. It's in the package insert in 4 full disclosure, so from the day that the product 5 was approved by the FDA. 6 Q. Where is it in the package 7 insert? 8 A. I can't recall. It's in the, 9 definitely listed in the side effects section. 10 Q. Other than the package insert, 11 is there any other way that you were made aware 12 that Fluoxetine can cause agitation in patients? 13 A. In listening to physicians 14 make presentations on their clinical experience 15 with antidepressants. This is a side effect that 16 a number of drugs have. 17 Q. Okay. It's your recollection 18 that you have heard physicians make presentations 19 regarding antidepressants in general, that some 20 of them can cause agitation. Is that what your 21 saying? 22 A. That's correct. 23 Q. Do you recall what 24 antidepressants they were referring to other than Page 155 1 Fluoxetine? 2 A. As a general class, it would 3 be the tricyclic antidepressants, wellbutrin, and 4 more recently the other serotonin reuptake 5 inhibitors. 6 Q. Did any of these physicians, 7 during these presentations opine that Fluoxetine 8 caused a higher incidence of agitation in 9 depressed patients than tricyclics or wellbutrin? 10 A. I don't recall any such 11 statements. 12 Q. Prior to 1990, were you aware 13 of any issue related to Fluoxetine and 14 suicidality? 15 A. I can't recall when the first 16 time I heard of the subject of Fluoxetine and 17 suicidality. 18 Q. In your career at Lilly have 19 you ever had any responsibilities related to the 20 registration of Fluoxetine in countries other 21 than the United States? 22 A. No. 23 Q. Are you aware of any of the 24 efforts by Lilly to register Fluoxetine in Page 156 1 countries other than the United States? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. What countries? 4 A. In general, European 5 countries. I believe basically Europe. 6 Q. In your career at Lilly, were 7 you ever made aware that Lilly's efforts to 8 register or market a product in another country 9 were unsuccessful? 10 A. Were what? 11 Q. Unsuccessful in countries 12 other than the United States? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. What countries? 15 A. I can't recall specifically 16 which countries were involved. 17 Q. More than one? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. About how many? 20 A. Again, I can't -- it would be 21 less than a handful. 22 Q. Less than five? 23 A. Less than five. 24 Q. You've been through this Page 157 1 before, huh. How about Germany, do you have any 2 recollection of the problem Lilly had with 3 getting Fluoxetine registered for marketing in 4 Germany? 5 A. Not problems, questions that 6 needed to be answered by the regulatory 7 authorities. 8 Q. Were you involved at all in 9 answering those questions? 10 A. No. 11 Q. Do you recall what questions 12 the German authorities asked? 13 A. As I recall, one of the 14 questions that they asked for was information on 15 inpatient clinical experience. 16 Q. Any others? 17 A. I can't recall any others. 18 Q. Do you recall the German 19 government asking questions about suicide in 20 patients on Fluoxetine? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Are you aware that in 1985 the 23 German government turned down Lilly's application 24 to market Prozac in Germany? Page 158 1 MR. MYERS: Before he answers, let me 2 just object to the form because I don't know that 3 the action that you've described is technically 4 what happened. But tell her, if you know. 5 A. I don't know of such action. 6 Q. Are you aware of an incident 7 in any other country where Prozac or Fluoxetine 8 was marketed and then withdrawn by a government, 9 taken off the market? 10 A. No. 11 Q. How about Austria? 12 A. Not to my knowledge. 13 Q. Do you know when Fluoxetine 14 was approved for marketing in Germany? 15 A. No, I do not. 16 Q. Have you ever heard of Gary 17 Bolick? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Who's Gary Bolick? 20 A. Gary Bolick is a manager in my 21 organization. 22 MR. MYERS: How do you you spell that? 23 MS. ZETTLER: B-O-L-I-C-K. 24 Q. How about Rich Gochnauer, Page 159 1 G-O-C-H-N-A-U-E-R. 2 A. I know Rich Gochnauer. 3 Q. Who is Rich Gochnauer? 4 A. He's an employee with the 5 company. 6 Q. What division or department is 7 he in? 8 A. I don't know where he's 9 located today. 10 Q. Where was he located the last 11 time you knew where he was located? 12 A. Somewhere in marketing, but 13 I'm not sure where. 14 (PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT NO. 3 WAS 15 MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION AND 16 RECEIVED IN EVIDENCE.) 17 Q. Have you had a chance to 18 review Exhibit 3? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Do you recognize the exhibit? 21 A. I don't recognize it other 22 than that it's a memo from John Heiligenstein, 23 who's a physician, and a copy to some Lilly 24 employees. Page 160 1 Q. And you're listed as a primary 2 recipient? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Do you know who's handwriting 5 that is in the upper right-hand corner of the 6 first page? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Are you familiar with the 9 subject matter of this exhibit? 10 A. I've read it and it's a 11 suicide, but I'm not familiar with any more than 12 just that. 13 Q. Do you have any knowledge as 14 to how many people had committed suicide while 15 taking Fluoxetine up to August 2nd, 1989? 16 A. No. 17 Q. Do you know if it was more 18 than one? 19 A. I don't know. 20 Q. Why would a report of a 21 suicide on Fluoxetine impact promotional 22 materials or how would it impact promotional 23 materials? 24 MR. MYERS: Excuse me. Let me just Page 161 1 ask a question. When you say how many people 2 committed suicide, using Fluoxetine as the means 3 by which they did it? 4 MS. ZETTLER: No, I said while on 5 Fluoxetine. 6 MR. MYERS: While on it, okay, I'm 7 sorry. 8 A. Could you repeat your 9 question? 10 Q. Sure. In the first paragraph 11 of the E-Mail it says, this note will serve as an 12 update on the patient who was reported to have 13 died of a Fluoxetine overdose. Do you see that? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. The last sentence of that 16 paragraph says, this will impact on our formulary 17 reviews, as well as our promotional materials. 18 Correct? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. How would someone having died 21 from an overdose of Fluoxetine impact on 22 promotional materials on Prozac? 23 A. The promotional materials 24 reflect the package insert. The package insert Page 162 1 reflects clinical experience particularly with 2 such things as overdose, and if this represented 3 new information then the promotional materials 4 might in fact have to be changed to reflect the 5 new information. 6 Q. Up to this date, are you aware 7 of whether or not the number of suicides that 8 were committed by patients on Fluoxetine had been 9 reported in the package insert in the United 10 States? 11 A. We've always covered that 12 particular topic. You said in the United States, 13 we would report whatever our clinical data base 14 was regardless of where the information came 15 from. So we've covered that topic, it always has 16 been in the package insert. 17 Q. But the number of people who 18 had committed suicide while on Fluoxetine? 19 MR. MYERS: You want to know if the 20 answer specifies the exact number? 21 MS. ZETTLER: The number, right. 22 A. The way you described the 23 question, no. 24 Q. Okay. So the actual number of Page 163 1 people that you were aware of that had committed 2 suicide while on Fluoxetine would not be set out 3 in the package insert? 4 A. Not the way you described the 5 statement, no. 6 Q. Okay. How would that be 7 handled in the package insert? 8 A. The number of people who died 9 from an overdose of the drug. 10 Q. Died just from an overdose of 11 Fluoxetine? 12 A. Died from an overdose of the 13 drug. And in such cases where it was other drugs 14 involved that would also be noted in the insert. 15 Q. Would it set out an actual 16 number? 17 A. It would set out our 18 experience. I'm not sure it would always have 19 actual numbers in the insert. 20 Q. How does it handle the people 21 who committed suicide by means other than 22 overdose while on Fluoxetine? 23 A. I don't recall. We'd have to 24 go look at the insert at that time and look at Page 164 1 that section to tell you exactly how it covered 2 it. 3 Q. How about today, are the 4 number of people who committed suicide without 5 using a drug as a means to commit suicide listed 6 in the Fluoxetine package insert? 7 A. Again, we'd have to look at 8 the insert for me to tell you exactly what is in 9 there in terms of the language. 10 Q. Have you ever heard of Artie 11 Houston? 12 A. I'm sorry? 13 Q. Artie Houston? 14 A. Did you say Artie? 15 Q. Yes, Artie, A-R-T-I-E, 16 Houston. 17 A. That doesn't ring a bell. 18 Q. How about Joanne Martin? 19 A. I don't recall that name. 20 (PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT NO. 4 WAS 21 MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION AND 22 RECEIVED IN EVIDENCE.) 23 Q. Have you had a chance to 24 review Exhibit 4? Page 165 1 A. Yes, I have. 2 Q. Do you recognize this exhibit? 3 A. I'm sorry? 4 Q. Do you recognize this exhibit? 5 A. Indirectly, yes, I think I do. 6 Q. Can you tell me what it is? 7 A. Well it appears to be a letter 8 that from the way it's described, I think it's 9 Doctor Teicher wrote it. 10 Q. At the top of the first page, 11 I know it's difficult to tell because a lot of 12 it's blacked out, but at the top of the first 13 page it says Affirmation, correct? 14 A. Uh-huh. 15 Q. You have to say yes or no. 16 A. Yes, sorry. 17 Q. And on the second page, the 18 last line says, Affirmed by me under penalty of 19 perjury, this 21st day of October, 1991. 20 Correct? 21 A. That's correct. 22 Q. Does that indicate to you this 23 is a letter? 24 A. I don't know what it is. Page 166 1 Q. It's a writing of some sort, 2 correct? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And you believe that it's 5 authored by Doctor Teicher? 6 A. Yes, I do. 7 Q. Okay. Do you recall seeing 8 this before today, this exhibit? 9 A. Not -- no, I can't recall 10 specifically that I have. 11 Q. Do you recognize the 12 handwriting in the upper right-hand corner of the 13 page? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Can you tell me whose it is? 16 A. That's my handwriting. 17 Q. Okay. Which part? It looks 18 like two different handwritings. 19 A. It says CC Ron Williams, Jim 20 Lancaster. 21 Q. Okay. And how about the other 22 handwriting that's just to the left of that, is 23 that your handwriting also? 24 A. No. Page 167 1 Q. Whose handwriting is that? 2 A. It says Hasler on it, so I 3 assume that's Dan Hasler. 4 Q. Okay. Who's Dan Hasler? 5 A. An employee with the company. 6 Q. Can you tell me what area he 7 works in? 8 A. Dan is general manager in 9 Brazil today. 10 Q. Where was he in 1991 for the 11 company, what department? 12 A. I'm not a hundred percent 13 sure. He did work in my area at one point and it 14 may have been during this time frame. 15 Q. Okay. When you say your area 16 at that time frame, what do you mean? 17 A. I'm talking about marketing 18 plans. 19 Q. Okay. It looks like Mister 20 Hasler's note says Teicher's affidavit in Macy's 21 Santa Claus case recieved via NAMI. Does that 22 look right to you? 23 A. That's what is says, yes. 24 Q. Okay. Do you know why it is Page 168 1 that NAMI would send a copy of an Affirmation 2 written by Doctor Teicher to Eli Lilly? 3 A. I have no idea. 4 Q. Do you know how it is that 5 NAMI would get a copy of this Affirmation written 6 by Doctor Teicher in the first place? 7 A. I have no idea. 8 Q. Was NAMI in the habit of 9 sending materials on Doctor Teicher to Lilly, to 10 your knowledge? 11 A. No. 12 Q. What is NAMI? 13 A. National Alliance for the 14 Mentally Ill. 15 Q. Are you familiar with this 16 Santa Claus case, the Macy Santa Claus case? 17 A. Vaguely. 18 Q. Other than what's written in 19 here in the exhibit, can you tell me what you 20 know about the case? 21 A. That it received a lot of 22 press and public attention in the east and ended 23 up concerning patients and that's probably why 24 NAMI was involved in it. Page 169 1 Q. How do you know that it 2 concerned patients? 3 A. Because of the implications in 4 the press about the patient on Prozac, also 5 trying to be a Santa Claus and being in contact 6 with children. 7 Q. But how is it that you know 8 that patients were actually concerned about this 9 issue other than the fact that it was in the 10 press? 11 A. Because of the phone calls 12 that we received and the phone calls that the 13 patient groups received from patients on this 14 subject. 15 Q. Is there any record of phone 16 calls received by Lilly with regards to this 17 issue? 18 A. I do not know if such records 19 exist. 20 Q. Was there a department at 21 Lilly that handled such phone calls when they 22 came in? 23 A. Corporate affairs. 24 Q. To your knowledge, does Lilly Page 170 1 have any financial interest in the National 2 Depressive and Manic Depression Association? 3 A. National Depressive and Manic 4 Depression Association is a nonprofit 5 organization and Eli Lilly and Company does not 6 have a financial interest in it. 7 Q. Does it have any kind of 8 connection whatsoever with the National 9 Depressive and Manic Depression Association? 10 A. The only connection is joint 11 efforts in the area of public education on the 12 subject of depression. 13 (PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT NO. 5 WAS 14 MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION AND 15 RECEIVED IN EVIDENCE.) 16 Q. Have you had a chance to 17 review Exhibit 5? 18 A. Yes, I have. 19 Q. Do you recognize this exhibit? 20 A. No, I do not. 21 Q. It purports to be Amendments 22 to the Articles of Incorporation of the National 23 Depressive and Manic Depression Association in 24 the state of Illinois, certified copy dated Page 171 1 January 24th, 1989. Do you know why this would 2 have been produced as being part of your files, 3 Mister Tauscher? 4 A. No, I do not. 5 Q. Is it your testimony that you 6 have never seen this document before? 7 A. To the best of my 8 recollection, I haven't seen this, no. 9 Q. Did you maintain in your files 10 articles of incorporation or amendments to 11 articles of incorporations of other not for 12 profit organizations related to mental illness? 13 A. Not to my knowledge. 14 Q. Would there be any reason why 15 you would have this in your files? 16 A. If this was in my files, it 17 could have been part of the file certifying that 18 this is a nonprofit organization. I know of no 19 other reason why it would have been there. 20 Q. Did you keep files on this 21 nonprofit organization and Lilly's dealings with 22 the organization? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. What kinds of things would you Page 172 1 keep in those files? 2 A. Minutes of meetings, reports 3 on projects, correspondence. 4 Q. What kind of meetings would -- 5 meeting minutes would you have in your files? 6 A. If we visited one of the 7 groups or if they had contacted us and we were 8 simply filing an informational report to 9 management, or confirming actions that we had 10 agreed to take with the group, so that there was 11 correspondence that would have been why we would 12 have minutes? 13 Q. Did you turn those files over 14 to the legal department at Lilly as part of the 15 document collection on Fluoxetine? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. When did you first turn over 18 files to the legal department at Lilly with 19 regards to Fluoxetine? 20 A. I don't recall the first 21 request that we received. 22 Q. Do you know if it was before 23 or after Doctor Teicher's article came out? 24 A. I believe it would have been Page 173 1 afterwards, but I can't certify that. 2 MS. ZETTLER: Just for the record, 3 those files were not produced in Mister 4 Tauscher's materials. 5 MR. MYERS: Well I haven't inspected 6 every document that was produced but obviously 7 this came from those files. 8 MS. ZETTLER: This is the only 9 document, that and the other document were the 10 only two documents that have been related to 11 these nonprofit organizations or governmental 12 agencies that were produced. 13 (PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT NO. 6 WAS 14 MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION AND 15 RECEIVED IN EVIDENCE.) 16 Q. Have you had a chance to 17 review Exhibit 6? 18 A. I'm sorry? 19 Q. Have you had a chance to 20 review Exhibit 6? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Do you recognize this exhibit? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Could you do me a favor before Page 174 1 we get started, I just want to make sure I didn't 2 connect something here that shouldn't be 3 connected. Could you tell me what the last page 4 is, the PZ number at the bottom right-hand 5 corner? 6 A. The number 658. 7 Q. Okay. It's your testimony 8 that you do not recognize this exhibit, correct? 9 A. That's correct. 10 Q. Do you know why this would 11 have been produced as being part of your file, 12 Mister Tauscher? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Have you ever heard of a 15 report that the Citizens Commission on Human 16 Rights or the Church of Scientology was 17 attempting to flood the FDA's spontaneous adverse 18 event reporting data base with incidents of 19 suicide and violent/aggresive behavior? 20 A. I am aware of the Citizens 21 Commission on Human Rights putting out fliers on 22 the subject of ADR's and encouraging people to 23 report adverse experiences to them or to the FDA, 24 yes. Page 175 1 Q. Okay. To your knowledge, have 2 they been successful in that campaign to get 3 people to report adverse experiences? 4 A. I have no way of commenting on 5 that. 6 Q. You don't know either way if 7 they have been successful or not? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Are you aware of any instance 10 where a false adverse event report has been made 11 by the FDA at the prompting of the Citizens 12 Commission on Human Rights to the Church of 13 Scientology? 14 MR. MYERS: You mean made to the FDA? 15 MS. ZETTLER: Right. 16 A. Say it over again. 17 Q. Sure. Are you aware of any 18 instance where a false adverse event report was 19 made to the FDA because of any action taken or 20 any prompting by the Church of Scientology or the 21 Citizens Commission on Human Rights? 22 A. Not to my knowledge. 23 Q. Attached as part of Exhibit 6 24 are a number of drug experience reports or FDA Page 176 1 1639 forms, correct? 2 A. That's correct. 3 Q. Do you have any reason to 4 believe that any of these reports went to the FDA 5 from somebody other than Lilly? 6 A. From this exhibit and from all 7 of this, I'm not sure, I'm not technically 8 equipped to comment on the source of these 9 documents or who they went to, et cetera. 10 Q. Okay. If you could take a 11 look at the first page of the actual drug 12 experience reports, it's about six or seven pages 13 into the exhibit, page 570, do you see that? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Okay. In the lower left-hand 16 corner, it has section four only for reports 17 submitted by manufacturers, do you see that? 18 A. Yes I do. 19 Q. In that blank Eli Lilly and 20 Company's name and a general address appear, 21 correct? 22 A. Yes, I see that. 23 Q. Does this indicate to you 24 whether or not this report was sent to the FDA by Page 177 1 Lilly or not? 2 A. I assume that it was but again 3 I'm not familiar with these reports or how 4 they're submitted. 5 MR. MYERS: Just so the record's 6 clear, I think there are a few in there that are 7 not on that type of form, a so-called preprinted 8 form. 9 MS. ZETTLER: Right, but I'm just 10 asking him about the case where it does. 11 MR. MYERS: Sure, right. 12 Q. But it's your testimony, 13 Mister Tauscher, that you don't know either way 14 whether or not these particular reports were sent 15 to the FDA by Lilly or by some other entity, 16 correct? 17 A. I don't know anything at all 18 about these documents. 19 Q. Okay. 20 (PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT NO. 7 WAS 21 MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION AND 22 RECEIVED IN EVIDENCE.) 23 A. I can take thirty minutes and 24 go through this or you can tell me that it's a Page 178 1 copy of my calendar which it appears to be for 2 1991. 3 Q. Okay. Does this generally 4 look like your handwriting on the calendar or is 5 this somebody else's handwriting? 6 A. It's my secretary's 7 handwriting plus my own on occasions. 8 Q. Okay. But you do recognize it 9 as your appointment calendar for 1991? 10 A. Yes. 11 MS. ZETTLER: Why don't we take a 12 break. I know I only have a few questions about 13 this, but I might as well get myself organized at 14 this point. 15 Q. (A SHORT BREAK WAS TAKEN.) 16 Q. Mister Tauscher, to your 17 knowledge does the FDA require that any 18 promotional material for a drug be submitted to 19 the FDA for approval? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. In what circumstances does the 22 FDA require promotional material be provided to 23 it for approval? 24 A. Approval is probably not the Page 179 1 right word. It's for -- they refer to it as 2 preclearance. Anytime a product is introduced by 3 a company, there is a procedure for submitting 4 the initial introductory campaign materials to 5 the advertising section of the FDA for 6 preclearance. 7 Q. Is that just at the beginning 8 when a product is being launched? 9 A. No. Thereafter, anytime, at 10 the time of first use, the agency requires that 11 all materials are submitted to the advertising 12 group at the time of first use, but it's not -- 13 it's for their information and then if they have 14 issues or something then they come back to the 15 company. 16 Q. Okay. So I don't 17 misunderstand you, you're saying that just at the 18 time of first use they require, or is it 19 throughout the entire time the product is being 20 marketed? 21 A. Both. 22 MR. MYERS: When he says first use, I 23 think he doesn't mean of the product, he means of 24 the material. Right? Page 180 1 MS. ZETTLER: Okay. That's what I 2 was 3 getting confused on. 4 MR. MYERS: I don't mean to testify 5 for him. 6 MS. ZETTLER: No, that's fine. 7 MR. MYERS: That's how I heard it. 8 A. I told you about the 9 introduction of a product and the initial 10 campaigns are precleared. Thereafter, 11 promotional materials throughout the life cycle 12 of the product, whenever those materials are used 13 for the first time, are submitted to the FDA at 14 the time of first use. 15 Q. Okay. Does this mean like, 16 for instance, say you have an information sheet 17 that you use on the efficacy of Prozac and it has 18 finite information in it, if you want to use that 19 same information in another form do you have to 20 submit that to the FDA? 21 A. We submit all promotional 22 materials in their formats the first time they're 23 used, whether it's the same data in a different 24 medium, whatever, it's always submitted. Page 181 1 Q. Okay. To your knowledge, has 2 the FDA ever critized any promotional materials 3 submitted to it on Prozac by Lilly? 4 A. The FDA has asked us questions 5 with regard to some of our materials over the 6 past five years, yes. 7 Q. On what materials have they 8 asked questions? 9 A. I cannot recall the exact 10 folder or folders involved, but I recall a 11 specific letter from the FDA on some of our 12 material. 13 Q. Okay. When you say exact 14 folder or folders, what folders are you referring 15 to? 16 A. Promotion folders to 17 physicians. 18 Q. Tell me about the one letter 19 from the FDA that you do recall specifically. 20 A. They challenged some of the 21 statements that were made in the promotion 22 folder. 23 Q. Which promotion folder? 24 A. As I said, I do not recall. Page 182 1 It was a Prozac physician promotion piece and 2 asked us to respond to their challenge. 3 Q. Okay. What statements did 4 they challenge? 5 A. I don't recall. 6 Q. How about Zoloft pricing 7 brochure, do you recall that? 8 A. I'm sorry? 9 Q. Zoloft pricing brochure, does 10 that will ring a bell? 11 A. No. A Zoloft binder, yes. 12 Q. Okay. Is that one of the 13 things that you recall that they questioned was a 14 Zoloft binder? 15 A. No, but now that you mentioned 16 it, that is a second occasion that I recall them 17 challenging us. 18 Q. What did they challenge about 19 the Zoloft pricing binder that you recall? 20 MR. MYERS: You said pricing and he 21 called it a binder. I don't know, is that what 22 it is? 23 Q. Oh, I'm sorry. Did you say 24 Zoloft pricing binder? I said folder, I wasn't Page 183 1 sure -- 2 A. And I referred to it as a 3 binder and I should have been more explicit. It 4 was not a pricing binder, it was a comparative 5 binder between Prozac and Zoloft. 6 Q. Okay. Do you remember what it 7 is that they challenged about the Zoloft binder? 8 A. There were a couple of the 9 pages that had comparisons between the drugs, and 10 they challenged the sources of the data, and 11 there was a section that related to cost of 12 therapy between the two drugs, and they 13 challenged the terminology in that section. 14 Q. Zoloft is another serotonin 15 reuptake inhibitor, correct? 16 A. That is correct. 17 Q. Were you able to answer their 18 challenges on those two issues? 19 A. Yes, we were. 20 Q. And were any amendments made 21 to the binder as a result of the challenges made 22 by the FDA? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Okay. Tell me what changes to Page 184 1 the binder were made? 2 A. I don't recall specifically 3 what amendments we made. 4 Q. Who would know what amendments 5 were made? 6 A. Jim Lancaster. 7 Q. Okay. What was the subject of 8 the other letter that the FDA sent challenging 9 statements in folders? 10 A. As I mentioned in my earlier 11 answer, I don't recall the specific item or the 12 topic information that they were challenging, I 13 just recall that it was with regard to a 14 physician promotion brochure. 15 Q. Do you recall the FDA ever 16 challenging statements made in Prozac promotional 17 material on safety, like safety profile? 18 A. Not to my knowledge. 19 Q. Do you recall the FDA 20 challenging statements made with regards to the 21 efficacy of Prozac in any promotional material? 22 A. I can't recall. 23 Q. Other than the Zoloft 24 comparison binder, do you recall any other Page 185 1 promotional material on Fluoxetine that was 2 changed in response to a challenge by the FDA? 3 A. Could you repeat that again? 4 Q. Sure. Other than what you 5 already testified to with regards to the Zoloft 6 binder -- 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. -- do you recall any other 9 changes to promotional material that were made in 10 response to a challenge by the FDA? 11 A. Yes, that was the previous 12 occasion that I mentioned where the FDA sent us a 13 letter challenging us on a folder and we met with 14 them and reached agreement on what the contents 15 of the folder would contain in the future. 16 Q. Okay. So there were changes 17 made, you just don't recall which -- 18 A. I don't recall what kind of 19 changes, no. 20 Q. Would Jim Lancaster have 21 knowledge about the Zoloft comparison binder 22 changes also? 23 A. That question that you asked 24 me was about who would know about the changes to Page 186 1 the Zoloft comparison binder and I told you it 2 was Jim Lancaster. 3 Q. Okay. And how about the other 4 changes, would he be aware of -- 5 A. I don't think so. I think it 6 happened before his time. 7 Q. Who was before him? 8 A. It would have been Charles 9 Perry. 10 Q. Can you tell me what the DISTA 11 sales force is? 12 A. DISTA is one of the -- I've 13 got to go back to your previous question. 14 Q. Sure. 15 A. Jim Lancaster followed Bob 16 Petersen not Charles Perry, I'm sorry. 17 Q. Okay. That's okay. Anytime 18 that you want to make an addition or correction 19 to your testimony, feel free to jump in. 20 A. Go ahead with your question, 21 please. 22 Q. Okay. Tell me what DISTA 23 product company is? 24 A. DISTA is a sales organization Page 187 1 in the United States for the corporation. 2 Q. The corporation being Eli 3 Lilly? 4 A. The corporation being Eli 5 Lilly and Company, yes. 6 Q. Have you ever been a member of 7 DISTA, have you ever worked under DISTA? 8 A. I've supported the DISTA sales 9 organization, but I was not a member of DISTA, 10 per se. 11 Q. Okay. What products do DISTA 12 sales reps sell? 13 MR. MYERS: Today? 14 MS. ZETTLER: Yes. 15 A. Today the DISTA sales 16 representative promotes Prozac, promotes Lorabid 17 which is a oral antibotic, and promotes Axid 18 which is an H2 antagonist, an ulcer drug. 19 Q. Any others? 20 A. No. 21 Q. To your knowledge, when did 22 DISTA reps first start selling Prozac? 23 A. In 1988. 24 Q. They've sold it ever since Page 188 1 it's been on the market here in the United 2 States? 3 A. That's correct. 4 Q. And you testified earlier that 5 DISTA only operates here in the United States, is 6 that correct? 7 A. This organization is a U.S. 8 organization, yes. 9 Q. Is Lovan on the market now? 10 A. Lovan is not on the market. 11 Q. Is it on the market in any 12 country? 13 A. No. 14 Q. To your knowledge, once it's 15 approved is DISTA going to sell Lovan, DISTA 16 reps? 17 A. That would be an item that I 18 don't think I'm at liberty to discuss. 19 MR. MYERS: I think that's probably 20 proprietary. It's not approved. Who's going to 21 sell it, that goes into what their strategy is 22 for selling it and I don't think that's 23 discoverable. I'm going to direct him not to 24 answer. I don't think he should have to answer Page 189 1 that. 2 MS. ZETTLER: Next time try to jump in 3 with your instruction before he gives you the 4 hints. Okay, Larry? 5 MR. MYERS: Well, I just thought it 6 was -- a lot of these people are a lot smarter 7 than me. 8 MS. ZETTLER: All I'm trying to find 9 out is what the difference is between DISTA reps 10 and other sales reps. 11 MR. MYERS: That's a different 12 question. 13 MS. ZETTLER: I know, but I'm just 14 saying, I'm not asking market strategies or 15 anything like that. 16 MR. MYERS: I understand that. You 17 already know the difference. 18 MS. ZETTLER: I'm not quite sure I do 19 to be honest with you. 20 Q. Is Fluoxetine being marketed 21 in any other form besides Prozac at this time in 22 the United States? 23 A. No. 24 Q. How about any other country? Page 190 1 A. If you refer to any other form 2 as a different trademark, it might be, but I 3 don't know what those marks would be. 4 Q. I mean for any indication 5 other than depression? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. It is being marketed? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Where is it being marketed for 10 indications other than depression? 11 A. In Europe. 12 Q. Do you know which country? 13 A. I'm not sure but it's 14 available for bulimia and for obsessive 15 compulsive disorder. 16 Q. So when you say you're not 17 sure, you mean you're not sure which countries? 18 A. I don't know which countries. 19 Q. Which division of Lilly is 20 selling Fluoxetine for bulimia and OCD in Europe? 21 A. I don't know. 22 Q. Do you have any 23 responsibilities, whatsoever, with regards to 24 promoting Fluoxetine in other countries other Page 191 1 than the United States? 2 A. No. 3 Q. Is there a department in 4 Indianapolis that would handle promotion of 5 Fluoxetine for other indications outside the 6 United States? 7 A. Not directly, no. 8 Q. Is that something that's 9 handled by the various affiliates? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Does DISTA have any affiliated 12 or related division outside the United States? 13 A. No. Let me clarify something 14 there. There are organizations within the Lilly 15 corporation that are called DISTA, but they have 16 no relationship to the U.S. sales division. 17 Q. Okay. Are they sales 18 divisions in other countries? 19 A. In some cases they could be, 20 in other cases they could be an actual 21 organization. 22 Q. Okay. 23 A. Beyond just a sales 24 organization, I meant to say. Page 192 1 Q. With regards to Fluoxetine, 2 are you aware of any other DISTA organization 3 other than the one that exists here in the United 4 States? 5 A. Say again. 6 Q. With regards to Fluoxetine, 7 are you aware of any other DISTA entity, entity 8 named DISTA within Lilly that -- I lost my train 9 of thought -- I'm just trying to find out what, 10 we see documents that have the DISTA logo on it, 11 okay, I just want to make sure that we're dealing 12 with the same DISTA on the various documents that 13 we've seen. Are you aware of any other DISTA, 14 other than the DISTA here in the United States, 15 that is a sales force or encompasses the sales 16 force that has any relationship or responsibility 17 over Fluoxetine either here or outside the United 18 States? 19 A. The DISTA logos that you will 20 see on U.S. materials will be unique to the U.S. 21 DISTA could be used on materials, but it will be 22 a different logo if it's from another country and 23 it could be a sales organization, it could be an 24 actual company. Page 193 1 Q. Do you know if any of those 2 outside the U.S. DISTA's have responsibilities 3 for Fluoxetine? 4 A. I don't know. 5 Q. Besides DISTA sales reps, are 6 there any other sales reps that sell Fluoxetine 7 here in the United States? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. What sales reps, what division 10 are they encompassed by? 11 A. The Select Sales Organization, 12 Select Products is their correct term. 13 Q. Any others? 14 A. Lilly Hospital Organization. 15 Q. Okay. Anything else? 16 A. And the Lilly Retail 17 Organization. 18 Q. Who do the DISTA sales reps 19 detail to? 20 A. The DISTA sales 21 representatives promote the product to primary 22 care physicians, to psychiatrists, to other 23 specialties that would have -- the physician 24 specialties that would have the occasion to use Page 194 1 antidepressants as well as in calling on 2 pharmacies and hospitals. 3 Q. Okay. How about Select 4 Product Sales, who would they detail to? 5 A. They would detail primarily to 6 primary care physicians and internists. 7 Q. How about Lilly Hospital? 8 A. Lilly Hospital would be 9 physicians who practice in hospitals. 10 Q. Like ER physicians? 11 A. ER, cardiologists, surgeons, 12 again those specialties that might have the 13 occasion to use an antidepressants. 14 Q. Can you think of any specialty 15 at this time that would not at least in the 16 opinion of Lilly have occasion to use 17 antidepressants? 18 A. Because we do not have an 19 indication in pediatrics, we would not call on 20 pediatricians. 21 Q. Okay. Any others? 22 A. The rare opportunity for a 23 dermatologist to prescribe, I would say we 24 probably don't call on very many of them. Page 195 1 Q. Okay. Any others besides 2 dermatologists and pediatricians? 3 A. I mean, I can probably think 4 of another couple but it's very, very remote. 5 Q. Okay. How about the Lilly 6 Retail Organization, who would they detail to? 7 A. They will also call on primary 8 care physicians and internists. 9 Q. Anybody else besides primary 10 care and internists? 11 A. Gastrointerologists would be 12 called on. 13 Q. I'm sorry, did you say with 14 the Select Products they would just detail 15 primarily to primary care and internists? 16 A. Yes, that's correct. 17 Q. Any other subspecialties or 18 specialties? 19 A. No. It's rare that they call 20 on anybody except those two specialties. 21 Q. Now, is that just with regards 22 to Prozac or is that with all the drugs they 23 detail? 24 A. With all the products that Page 196 1 they detail. I'm sorry, they are calling on 2 pediatricians with an oral antibiotic and they 3 would not detail Prozac to those folks. 4 Q. Okay. I'm just concerned with 5 Prozac now. 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. So the sales force that deals 8 most often with psychiatrists is the DISTA sales 9 force? 10 A. That is correct. 11 Q. Do you know why it is broken 12 down into these four different groups, the sales 13 people? 14 A. Yes. We have the different 15 sales organizations to support the product mix 16 that we have, the variety of products and the 17 fact that not all of the products are detailed or 18 promoted to the same physicians. 19 Q. So you may have more than one 20 Lilly representative calling on a particular 21 physician? 22 A. That's correct. 23 Q. And is the line up of drugs 24 that the individual groups detail determined by Page 197 1 what the possible use would be? 2 A. It's determined by a number of 3 factors, the number of times a particular 4 specialty would need to utilize the particular 5 type of medication, it's also dictated by the 6 amount of competitive activity in that specialty, 7 and it's also dictated by like again the product 8 mix that we have. 9 Q. Do you know offhand of any 10 other Lilly product that is detailed by all four 11 of these groups? 12 A. Axid, it is a product that is 13 also detailed by all of the organizations. 14 Q. Any others? 15 A. Our oral antibiotics, as a 16 family, are promoted by all four organizations. 17 Q. Do you know what a Phase 4 18 study is? 19 A. I have a definition that I 20 would use, yes. 21 Q. Okay. What's your definition 22 of a Phase 4 study? 23 A. It would be a clinical trial 24 that is not associated with obtaining data to Page 198 1 change the package insert but rather to provide 2 clinicians with additional clinical experience in 3 an approved indication for a drug. And the 4 studies are typically set up and implemented once 5 the product has been approved for use. 6 Q. So Phase 4 studies are 7 generally post-marketing studies? 8 A. Generally they are but they 9 can be initiated preapproval with the idea that 10 they're going to be finished by the time the drug 11 is approved. 12 Q. Okay. Generally when does the 13 company perform a Phase 4 study, not timewise but 14 in what circumstances would they perform a Phase 15 4 study? 16 A. Under three circumstances, one 17 would be where there is a need to provide thought 18 leaders with organized clinical experience with a 19 drug, two, where there are questions or issues 20 associated with the use of the drug where 21 additional clinical data would be useful to the 22 medical profession, and three, to generate 23 ongoing medical publications that would assist in 24 the promotion of the product over time. Page 199 1 Q. Okay. I'm not sure if I heard 2 you right. On the first one need to provide 3 opinion leaders? 4 A. Thought leaders. 5 Q. What are thought leaders? 6 A. Thought leaders would be 7 individuals, typically in university settings, 8 that because of their experience and recognized 9 expertise, particularly with drug research, that 10 their profession views them as trend setters and 11 people who they can go to for referrals and 12 expertise. 13 Q. Were there a group of 14 psychiatrists or other medical providers that 15 were thought by Lilly to be thought leaders with 16 regards to Fluoxetine and depression or other 17 mental illnesses? 18 A. Yes, there are. 19 Q. Okay. Do you know who any of 20 those people are? 21 A. I will name some of them, I 22 couldn't possibly name them all, but a few of 23 them that come to mind would be Allen Shatsberg, 24 Dave Dunner, Jerry Rosenbaum, John Rush, Jan Page 200 1 Fawcett, Robert Hirshfield, Peter Stokes, Gary 2 Tollefson, that would be a good start. I draw a 3 mental blank now. I better stop there. 4 Q. Okay. How about anybody 5 outside the United States? 6 A. Stewart Montgomery in the UK. 7 I'm not that familiar with the names of other 8 people. 9 Q. How are thought leaders, and I 10 don't mean anything ominous by this, I'm really 11 trying to understand how this whole thing works, 12 okay, but how are thought leaders used by the 13 drug company with regards to a product? 14 A. How are they what? 15 Q. How are they utilized or used 16 or how do they work with regards to promoting a 17 product, if at all? 18 A. Typically, thought leaders are 19 physicians who are clinical researchers and so 20 they will either have participated in 21 registration trials or in Phase 4 studies, and as 22 a result of that are in a position to make 23 comment on their personal experience with the 24 drugs, and are often called on to speak at Page 201 1 conventions and symposia and medical meetings. 2 They also because of their experience and 3 reputation will review the literature and present 4 information based on literature reviews. 5 Q. Okay. Why would there have 6 been a need to provide them with organized 7 clinical experience data with a drug? 8 A. I'm sorry, I don't understand 9 the question. 10 Q. I believe your first reason, 11 the first reason you set out was for doing Phase 12 4 studies would be a need to provide thought 13 leaders with organized clinical trial experienced 14 data with the drug. 15 A. What I meant to say was to 16 provide them with the opportunity to gain 17 clinical experience in an organized fashion. 18 Q. Okay. So they, in other 19 words, they could give them the opportunity to 20 participate in another clinical trial? 21 A. Yes, in the clinical trials. 22 I'm sorry, I didn't make that clear. 23 Q. That's Okay. Have you ever 24 heard of Ferris Pitts, P-I-T-T-S? Page 202 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Who's Ferris Pitts? 3 A. As I recall, if my memory is 4 correct, that he's a physician or researcher in 5 California that has a research institute. 6 Q. Has he ever been a thought 7 leader? 8 A. I believe that depending on 9 the academic circles that you could contact, some 10 people would consider him that, yes. 11 Q. Okay. But as far as Lilly is 12 concerned has he been considered a thought 13 leader? 14 A. He would have been one of the 15 people had I asked enough people at the company 16 for a list of names, that his name would have 17 come up, yes. 18 Q. Have you ever heard of Daniel 19 Casey? 20 A. Dan Casey? 21 Q. Yes. 22 A. The name sounds familiar but I 23 can't relate if to our conversation, I'm not 24 sure. Page 203 1 Q. Okay. How about James 2 Claghorn? 3 A. The name rings a bell as 4 another clinical investigator. 5 Q. Zavier Escobar? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Jeffrey Leberman? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Robert Hammer? 10 A. No. 11 Q. Michael Burnstein or 12 Burnstien? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Linda Frances Hazel or Hezel, 15 H-E-Z-E-L? 16 A. No. 17 Q. Carol Taminga, T-A-M-I-N-G-A? 18 A. Carol who? 19 Q. Taminga. 20 A. No. 21 Q. Keh-Ming Lin, L-I-N? Keh-Ming 22 one word or one name. K-E-H, hyphen, M-I-N-G, 23 Lin, L-I-N. 24 A. No. Page 204 1 Q. Regina Casper? 2 A. Regina -- 3 Q. Casper? 4 A. Casper or Casburg? 5 Q. C-A-S-P-E-R. 6 A. No. 7 Q. Lina Schooler? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Ida Hellander, 10 H-E-L-L-A-N-D-E-R? 11 A. Say her name again. 12 Q. Ida, I-D-A, Hellander, 13 H-E-L-L-A-N-D-E-R? 14 A. I think I recognize that name 15 as a physician, but I'm not a hundred percent 16 sure. 17 Q. How about John Mann, M-A-N-N? 18 A. John Mann, yes. 19 Q. Who's Doctor Mann? 20 A. Doctor Mann is a, he's a 21 psychiatrist but I'm not sure if he has another 22 subspecialty. I think he's involved in, he may 23 be a cardiologist also. 24 Q. Okay. To your knowledge, has Page 205 1 Doctor Mann ever done any work for Lilly on 2 Fluoxetine? 3 A. Yes, he has. 4 Q. Has he run a clinical trial? 5 A. Yes, he has. 6 Q. Do you know when he ran a 7 clinical trial? 8 A. When? 9 Q. Yes. 10 A. No, not the exact dates. 11 Q. Is that trial still ongoing? 12 A. I don't believe so. 13 Q. Besides running a clinical 14 trial, has Doctor Mann done any other work for 15 Lilly like consulting or speaking, things of that 16 nature? 17 A. I'm not a hundred percent 18 sure. I seem to recall that he might have been 19 one of the people that -- one of the 20 psychiatrists that were called in to review the 21 suicidality data, but I'm not sure. 22 Q. Let's talk about Stewart 23 Montgomery, has Doctor Montgomery done any work 24 for Lilly on Fluoxetine as far as you know? Page 206 1 A. I don't know if he's done 2 clinical trials or not. 3 Q. Okay. 4 A. I don't know for sure. I 5 think he has, but I can't verify it. 6 Q. Okay. Has he done any 7 consulting for Lilly on Fluoxetine or other 8 related issues? 9 A. Doctor Stewart Montgomery has 10 visited our offices while he was in the United 11 States, but I do not know if it was -- if that 12 visit was associated with a consulting trip or 13 just a trip to interact with our scientists. 14 Q. How about Daryl, I'm not sure, 15 I'm going to try this but I don't think I'm going 16 to get it right, Regier, R-E-G-I-E-R? 17 A. Regier I think is his name, 18 and if I remember correctly he is a -- he's a 19 physician. I think he's a psychiatrist and he 20 might be at the National Institutes of Mental 21 Health, but that's as close as I can get. 22 Q. Do you know if Doctor Regier 23 has ever done any work for Lilly? 24 A. Not to my knowledge. Page 207 1 Q. Do you know if he's ever 2 spoken at any of Lilly's symposiums? 3 A. If it's the same individual 4 that I think it is, I believe he gave a talk on 5 epidemiology at one of the depression awareness 6 meetings, the campaign meetings that we had. But 7 that's all I can recall. 8 Q. How about Michael Stanley? 9 A. I can't give any specifics 10 about him. 11 Q. Do you remember a medical 12 opinion leaders forum on psychotropic agents that 13 was held at Lilly in 1985? 14 A. We, prior to the launch of the 15 drug, had one or two meetings that were held by 16 Lilly research laboratories, and I don't recall 17 if that's the title of the meeting, but that 18 maybe what you're referring to. 19 (PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT NO. 8 WAS 20 MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION AND 21 RECEIVED IN EVIDENCE.) 22 Q. Have you had a chance to 23 review Exhibit 8? 24 A. Yes. Page 208 1 Q. Do you recognize this exhibit? 2 A. I recognize the subject 3 matter. I don't recall specifically this 4 exhibit, but I've seen several letters of this 5 nature. 6 Q. Okay. Tell me what the 7 subject matter relates to? 8 A. It relates to a scientific 9 meeting that was held by Lilly research labs in 10 August of 1985 in which a number of physicians 11 and Ph.D's from the CNS research community were 12 invited to come to Indianapolis and be exposed to 13 activities that were going on in CNS research on 14 the part of Lilly labs including information on 15 Fluoxetine. And the physicians were asked to 16 provide us with comment, us being Lilly research 17 labs, on their experience and their thoughts 18 about additional work that we might need to do 19 with regard to any of our research projects. 20 Q. Okay. What's the purpose of 21 getting these opinion leaders together, to 22 educate them as to what's been going on or what's 23 been found at Lilly on drugs? 24 A. The purpose was two-fold, and Page 209 1 it was not just to educate them but was to, as 2 noted in this letter, to seek their advice and 3 comments on the projects that we had in place as 4 we were developing these compounds. 5 Q. This particular meeting that's 6 reflected in Exhibit 8, was that a meeting on 7 psychotropic agents only? 8 A. I don't recall what all the 9 research topics that were presented to the group, 10 I wasn't part of it so I don't know. 11 Q. Do you recall what other 12 doctors attended such meetings? 13 A. No. 14 Q. To your knowledge, was one of 15 the reasons to get these people together was to 16 form a possible pool for clinical investigators 17 for future trials on Fluoxetine or other drugs? 18 A. That's one of the outcomes of 19 such a meeting as indicated by Doctor Pitts' 20 interest as noted in the letter. 21 Q. Do you know if Doctor Pitts 22 was ever used as a clinical investigator on 23 Fluoxetine? 24 A. I don't know. Page 210 1 Q. What's the Montecatini that 2 Doctor Pitts refers to in the exhibit? 3 A. Can you tell me which page 4 you're on. 5 Q. Sure Page 1, paragraph number 6 three or point number three. 7 A. Montecatini. 8 Q. Yes. 9 A. That was the site of a, I 10 think it was either a European or a world wide 11 scientific meeting, psychiatric scientific 12 meeting, that was held in 1984. That's in Italy 13 and there was a Lilly sponsored symposia at that 14 meeting. 15 Q. Was it on Fluoxetine? 16 A. I don't know, I believe it 17 was. But it was Lilly Research Laboratories 18 again who sponsored it. 19 Q. Okay. Were you at that 20 meeting? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Did you do anything in 23 preparation for that meeting? 24 A. No. Page 211 1 Q. Did all of the attendees of 2 these medical opinion leader forums generally 3 write a report such as the one Doctor Pitts 4 wrote? 5 A. I don't know. I do know that 6 they were invited to make, to send back such a 7 letter. 8 Q. Okay. To your knowledge, did 9 any of the people attending the Fluoxetine forum 10 ever have any criticism of the way the clinical 11 trials on Fluoxetine were run or the data that 12 was presented that resulted from those clinical 13 trials? 14 A. They commented on the clinical 15 trials. Whether that would be considered as 16 criticism could be considered a critique since 17 they commented on it. So I wouldn't be in a 18 position to say whether it was criticism, but it 19 was a critique obviously. 20 Q. Did any of them say anything 21 that was in your mind negative about the way the 22 clinical trials were run? 23 A. I did not have access to all 24 of these letters so I can't say. Page 212 1 Q. How about the ones that you've 2 seen? 3 A. The ones that I saw on 4 occasion as part of the critique would identify 5 areas where more work might be done, always areas 6 that the physician was interested in doing 7 research. 8 Q. Okay. So you're saying 9 generally they would say we need more research in 10 this area and it was because they wanted to do 11 that research? 12 A. I think one of the things that 13 was part of the discussions were what additional 14 areas do you think we should explore and so that 15 became part of the report back to us. 16 Q. Do you recall any of the 17 participants in these forums voicing the opinion 18 that more research needed to be done on the 19 association of increased agitation or agitation 20 with the use of Fluoxetine? 21 A. No, I do not. 22 Q. Do you recall any of these 23 forum leaders, I'm sorry, opinion leader forum 24 participants voicing the opinion that additional Page 213 1 research needed to be done on the association of 2 Fluoxetine, suicidality or violent/aggressive 3 behavior? 4 A. No, I do not. 5 Q. Have you ever heard of a 6 Doctor Ivan Miller? 7 A. No. 8 Q. What input does marketing have 9 with regards to what Phase 4 studies are going to 10 be conducted? 11 A. Marketing submits -- it's a 12 joint effort between medical and marketing to 13 identify potential subjects for Phase 4 trials, 14 so we participate along with the medical group in 15 identifying potential products or topics. 16 Q. Has marketing, to your 17 knowledge, ever gone to medical and said, we 18 think you need to do a study on topic A, for 19 instance? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. What are some of those topics 22 that marketing wanted to pursue in a clinical 23 trial on Fluoxetine? 24 A. Typically it would not be Page 214 1 marketing going to medical with a specific 2 request, it would be medical and marketing 3 sitting down together, reviewing inputs that we 4 had received from physicians around the country 5 and reaching a concensus on topics and that might 6 be, the range of topics would be experience with 7 the drug at specific doses, experience with the 8 drug in specific patient types. That would be 9 the type of topics that we would come up with. 10 Another one might be experience with the drug, 11 and an example would be reasonably impaired 12 patients or experience with the drug in the 13 presence of other medications the patients might 14 be taking. 15 Q. I want to keep my questions 16 right now narrowed just to Fluoxetine, okay. Are 17 you aware of any instance where the marketing 18 department approached medical and said, we feel 19 we need to do a study regarding Fluoxetine on 20 this subject or to look at this phenomena? 21 A. I'm sure that we have raised 22 topics, potential topics, with the medical group 23 in the six years. I can't remember any specific 24 occasions, but yes, I'm sure it's happened. Page 215 1 Q. Okay. What did the marketing 2 department do, to your knowledge, in response to 3 the media attention surrounding Doctor Teicher's 4 suicidality article, generally? 5 A. Kept our sales organization 6 informed about the subject. 7 Q. Anything else? 8 A. Responded to inquiries from 9 the various professional groups that may have 10 asked us for information. 11 Q. Anything else? 12 A. Prepared material which 13 provided prepared detail which provided 14 physicians with the clinical data regarding our 15 experience with the drug and the subjects of 16 suicidality. 17 Q. Anything else? 18 A. Those are specific actions 19 that I can recall. 20 Q. How about with regards to 21 public relations, non-like lay people public 22 relations, what was done? 23 A. We worked with corporate 24 affairs in ensuring that press inquiries, media Page 216 1 inquiries and the like were dealt with. 2 Q. If Lilly was going to ask a 3 psychiatrist such as, just, for instance, Doctor 4 Dunner, okay, to appear on a television show, 5 what department at Lilly would have had 6 responsibility for organizing something like 7 that? 8 A. With what you just described, 9 it would have been corporate affairs. 10 Q. Are you aware of any situation 11 where Lilly would have asked a thought leader as 12 we talked about earlier to appear on a television 13 program of any kind? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Okay. What situation? 16 A. I can recall specifically 17 Jerry Rosenbaum and Doctor Peter Stokes being 18 part of some television programs. 19 Q. Which programs? 20 A. I don't recall which ones. I 21 think Doctor Stokes was on Larry King Live. I'm 22 not sure which program Doctor Rosenbaum was on. 23 Q. How about 60 Minutes? 24 A. I don't recall. Page 217 1 Q. How about Oprah? 2 A. I don't recall. 3 Q. To your knowledge, has Burst 4 and Marsteler arranged for any physicians or 5 members of any of the patient groups or like the 6 illness related not for profit organization, to 7 appear on any television shows to either speak on 8 depression in general or speak about Prozac 9 specifically? 10 A. To speak on depression, yes. 11 Q. Okay. What situations did 12 that happen? 13 A. Again, I can't recall the 14 specific programs or the timing, but it would 15 have been where the producers or the reporters 16 associated with the programs contacted corporate 17 affairs and asked us to participate in a program, 18 and corporate affairs then would have worked with 19 Burst and Marsteler to organize such a thing if 20 it was a physician or somebody from one of the 21 mental health groups. 22 Q. When Lilly helped to provide 23 participants in media events like that, would it 24 be noted to the producers of those shows that Page 218 1 these people had either done this at the request 2 of Lilly or had some sort of connection with 3 Lilly? 4 A. In the cases where the 5 producers have contacted us originally and asked 6 for our help in setting up the program, 7 obviously, they would. 8 Q. Okay. But what if say they 9 contacted National Mental Health Association and 10 said, can you provide us with somebody who would 11 give us information say on depression in general, 12 and then the National Mental Health Association 13 contacted somebody at Lilly corporate affairs to 14 ask for help, in that situation would the 15 producer of the show be told up front that the 16 person who was provided had at least some sort of 17 tangential connection with Lilly? 18 A. I don't know. 19 Q. Are you aware that Doctor 20 Fawcett appeared on an episode of Oprah about a 21 year ago? 22 A. No. 23 Q. Are you aware of any situation 24 at Eli Lilly where somebody at Lilly has Page 219 1 attempted to prevent the publication of a medical 2 article that was negative towards Fluoxetine? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Are you aware of a situation 5 where anybody at Lilly has attempted to prevent 6 the airing of a program either on radio or T.V. 7 that was negative towards Fluoxetine? 8 A. I know of efforts on our part 9 to ensure that programs that were brought to our 10 attention dealt with facts versus some of the 11 accusations that had been leveled against the 12 drug. 13 Q. Okay. So if you became aware 14 of a program that was potentially going to be 15 aired on Prozac, the company would do what it 16 could do to assure that it was factual? 17 A. Factual and if in our opinion 18 we felt that the public good wasn't going to be 19 served by the the program, to try to discourage 20 the producers. 21 Q. Discourage the producers from 22 airing the program? 23 A. From the focus of their 24 program, i.e. drugs versus the subject of Page 220 1 depression. 2 Q. Who made the decision as to 3 whether or not content of a given program was 4 appropriate for airing? 5 A. It would be typically these 6 decisions that the facts are very obvious and Ed 7 West would know whether or not to, and if he had 8 any question he would contact management. 9 Q. Okay. 10 A. I'm going to ask us to take a 11 quick break. 12 (A SHORT RECESS WAS TAKEN.) 13 Q. If you had a situation where 14 Lilly was aware of a program that was going to be 15 aired that they didn't feel was appropriate or at 16 least represented Prozac appropriately, and you 17 were not able to persuade the producer either to 18 balance the program out or take a different tact 19 with the subject matter, what would happen then? 20 A. The program would run. We 21 would alert our people that it was going to run, 22 and then respond accordingly based on what 23 happened on the program. 24 Q. Are you aware of any situation Page 221 1 where Lilly was able to prevent the airing of a 2 program that they felt was inappropriate or 3 represented Prozac inappropriately? 4 A. I'm aware of situations where 5 we were able to convince the producers that the 6 thrust or the focus of their program might be 7 better served differently than the way they 8 originally proposed it. 9 Q. So your testimony is is you 10 are not aware of any situation where Lilly was 11 able to prevent the airing of a program either 12 directly or indirectly? 13 A. No. That is my testimony, I 14 don't know of a case where we did. 15 Q. Okay. Are you aware of a 16 specific instance like you just described about 17 where Lilly was able to persuade the producers to 18 take a different tack or add additional 19 information to a program? 20 A. I am aware of several cases 21 where the producers either added information or 22 changed the focus of a program, but the 23 specifics, I don't recall that it was such and 24 such or on such and such a date. Page 222 1 Q. Okay. You don't recall which 2 programs? 3 A. No. 4 Q. And in those situations where 5 Lilly was able to persuade the producers to take 6 a different tack with the program that they were 7 putting together, how were they able to do that? 8 A. By direct contact with the 9 producers and by making available to the 10 producers experts in the field. 11 Q. Where would these experts come 12 from? 13 A. Depending on the location of 14 the program, if it was in New York and it was one 15 of these where they're going to be shooting it or 16 running it in twenty-four hours, you would try to 17 use somebody locally. If they were talking about 18 doing something two months from now, you could 19 have virtually anybody who was an expert in the 20 area that needed to be addressed put in contact 21 with them. But it would be based on each 22 situation. 23 Q. When I say where'd they come 24 from, I didn't mean like location, I meant the Page 223 1 pool of people. Was this the people taken from 2 the thought leaders that we talked about earlier? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. I may have asked you this 5 earlier and if I did I apologize, are you aware 6 of any instance where Lilly was able to prevent 7 the publication of an article that was critical 8 of Prozac? 9 A. You did ask me and the answer 10 is no. 11 Q. Okay. Thank you. Have you 12 ever heard of the term rechallenge study? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Can you tell me what your 15 understanding of a rechallenge study is? 16 MR. MYERS: As a nonphysician person? 17 MS. ZETTLER: As a nonphysician 18 person. 19 A. Always as a nonphysician 20 person. Rechallenge is a patient is exposed to a 21 medication and then subsequently exposed to the 22 medication after a suitable wash out period, the 23 second time. 24 Q. For what purpose? Page 224 1 A. It depends on the protocol and 2 the drug involved. 3 Q. Okay. Have you heard of an 4 instance where a person has been rechallenged on 5 a drug after they have some sort of adverse event 6 while on the drug? 7 A. I've heard of that, yes. 8 Q. To your knowledge, have any 9 rechallenge studies been done on Fluoxetine for 10 any reason either by Lilly or on behalf of Lilly? 11 A. On Fluoxetine, yes. 12 Q. What rechallenge studies have 13 been done? 14 A. In the field of obesity. 15 Q. Was the rechallenge done for a 16 safety aspect of Fluoxetine? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Was there an actual study done 19 that rechallenged people being treated with 20 Fluoxetine for obesity? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Is that study completed? 23 A. I believe it is. 24 Q. Has it been reported? Page 225 1 A. If it's been completed and the 2 data is put together, it has been reported. 3 Q. Any other studies involving 4 Fluoxetine where patients were rechallenged for 5 some reason that have been done? 6 A. I don't recall. 7 Q. Are you aware of any 8 Fluoxetine rechallenge studies that have been 9 proposed related to the issue of suicidality and 10 the use of Fluoxetine? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Can you tell me what you know 13 about that study or studies? 14 A. I told you what I know. I 15 really don't, I don't know any of the details. I 16 don't recall and I wouldn't be prepared, 17 qualified to discuss them anyway. 18 Q. Were you involved at all with 19 discussion on the rechallenge suicide study? 20 A. I have been present when the 21 discussions have gone on, but I have not 22 participated, per se, in the discussions. 23 Q. When were you first present at 24 a discussion where a suicide rechallenge was Page 226 1 discussed? 2 A. I can recall the first time 3 ever hearing the subject raised but that doesn't 4 mean it would be the first time it was ever 5 raised at the company. 6 Q. Okay. 7 A. The first time I recall it was 8 during the FDA advisory committee meeting. 9 Q. Who raised it at that meeting? 10 A. I don't recall. 11 Q. When you say the FDA advisory 12 committee meeting, you mean the drug advisory 13 committee meeting in September of 1991? 14 A. That's correct. 15 Q. Do you recall a proposed 16 rechallenge suicide study being discussed at 17 Lilly? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. When is the first time that 20 you recall that study being discussed at Lilly? 21 A. After this advisory committee. 22 Q. What was discussed about the 23 rechallenge? 24 A. I don't recall any details. Page 227 1 Q. Do you know if a rechallenge 2 study is currently being planned on suicidality 3 and Fluoxetine? 4 A. I have no knowledge. 5 Q. Was such a study raised by the 6 marketing department or the medical department? 7 A. It was medical. 8 Q. Have you ever heard of Phase 4 9 studies being funded by the marketing department 10 at Lilly? 11 A. By definition Phase 4 studies 12 are supported by marketing. 13 Q. Besides Phase 4 studies, any 14 other studies that are supported by marketing? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Have you heard of a suicide 17 scale validation study performed on behalf of 18 Lilly? 19 A. That subject is vaguely 20 familiar to me but that's all I recall. 21 Q. You don't know if such a study 22 has been done or is being done? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Are surveillance studies Page 228 1 funded by the marketing department at Lilly? 2 A. Could you please describe, 3 define what you mean by surveillance study? 4 Q. Well it's kind of hard to do, 5 my understanding I've gleaned from other 6 depositions in this case, okay. So I'll tell you 7 what I know about a surveillance study that has 8 allegedly been done on suicidality scale 9 validation, okay. It's my understanding from 10 other deposition testimony in this case that a 11 study was performed on behalf of Lilly by a 12 Doctor Ivan Miller to validate a suicidality 13 rating scale that he had developed for Lilly. It 14 has been called a surveillance study as opposed 15 to a pilot study or a Phase 4 study. 16 A. That was not supported by 17 marketing. 18 Q. Okay. Why not or how do you 19 know that? 20 A. Because that would not be a 21 marketing, that would not be a Phase 4 study. By 22 definition that's the only type of studies that 23 marketing would support. 24 Q. How about pilot studies, do Page 229 1 you know what a pilot study is? 2 A. I have my definition but it 3 will be a nonmedical definition. 4 Q. That's fine. What's your 5 definition? 6 A. It's where a premise or a 7 theory is pursued on a preliminary basis before 8 moving onto a large scale effort to validate the 9 hypothesis. 10 Q. Are you aware of any pilot 11 studies that have been done on Fluoxetine either 12 by Lilly or on behalf of Lilly? 13 A. By the definition I've just 14 described to you, there have been a number of 15 pilot studies done. 16 Q. How about pilot studies done 17 on depression? 18 A. Again, by definition, the very 19 early trials would be pilot studies. 20 Q. Anything more recent in say 21 the past four years? 22 A. It's not beyond the realm of 23 possibility, but I can't think of an example. 24 Q. List for me the best you can Page 230 1 the marketing or Phase 4 studies that have been 2 performed on Fluoxetine that you are aware of. 3 A. I'm not going to be able to 4 give you a complete list. 5 Q. As best you can. 6 A. A geriatric study of the use 7 of the drug in geriatric patients, the renal 8 impairment study, post myocardial infarction 9 study, a study of depression in cancer patients. 10 That's all I can think of right now. 11 Q. Atypical depression? 12 A. That might be but I can't -- 13 that doesn't register right now on the list. 14 Q. Okay. How about studying the 15 treatment of agitation associated with depression 16 using Fluoxetine? 17 A. Agitated patients suffering 18 from depression, yes. 19 Q. Is that an ongoing study? 20 A. I believe that particular 21 study has been completed and the publication has 22 been made on that but I'm not sure. 23 Q. Do you recall who participated 24 in that study outside of Lilly? Page 231 1 A. Well -- 2 Q. As far as clinical 3 investigators. 4 A. One of the studies that comes 5 to mind was started by Doctor Tollefson when he 6 was an investigator physician outside of Lilly, 7 that's the one study that I recall. 8 Q. Before he became an employee 9 of Lilly? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And when you say the Tollefson 12 study, you mean something related to agitated 13 patients suffering from depression? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Any other agitation studies 16 that you're aware of? 17 A. No. 18 Q. And the Tollefson study, is 19 that the study that you believe has been 20 reported? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Does marketing have a say as 23 to whether or not a study will be done or not, a 24 Phase 4 study? Page 232 1 A. Marketing has an, initiates 2 the request for Phase 4 studies by the definition 3 that I gave you. So from that standpoint, we 4 initiate the request more often than not. If 5 marketing does not have a say, if there is a need 6 developed within the medical group to conduct the 7 clinical study, that's a medical decision not a 8 marketing. 9 Q. So, for instance, if medical 10 decides that a study needs to be done on a 11 particular aspect of a drug and marketing for 12 some reason or another doesn't want the study 13 done, medical's decision would override 14 marketing? 15 A. That's correct. 16 Q. Marketing would still then 17 have to fund the study? 18 A. No. Phase 4 studies by their 19 definition would be only those studies that would 20 be used by the marketing area, you just described 21 a study that would be used by the medical group. 22 Q. So that would be considered a 23 Phase 3 study? 24 A. Yes. Page 233 1 Q. So you -- 2 A. Phase 3 is -- it wouldn't 3 necessarily -- Phase 3 are studies that are done 4 for registration. Medical can do a clinical 5 study on a product anytime they choose to do so 6 if they feel that there is a medical issue, and 7 it wouldn't necessarily be a Phase 3, it would 8 just be for gathering data from a medical 9 perspective. 10 Q. Okay. But it could be if it's 11 technically a study done after the marketing of 12 the drug, it could be technically a 13 post-marketing study, could it not? 14 A. Yes, but it wouldn't 15 necessarily be Phase 4. 16 Q. Phase 4, okay. To your 17 knowledge, is there a study being done on 18 sub-syndromal syndrome currently? 19 A. There -- I believe there is a -- 20 I know of a protocol that was submitted, and 21 whether or not the protocol has been accepted and 22 the study has been started, I don't know. 23 Q. Is that a Phase 4 study? 24 A. It will ultimately be a Phase Page 234 1 3 study because it would generate data that could 2 be used in adding information to the package 3 insert, so it becomes a registration study. 4 Q. To your knowledge, would 5 approval for use in achievement of sub-syndromal 6 syndrome have to be gotten from the FDA as a 7 separate indicated use? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Okay. Why don't we look again 10 at, I'm not even sure what exhibit it is? 11 MR. MYERS: Seven. 12 MS. ZETTLER: Seven. 13 Q. Okay. Doctor Tauscher. You 14 testified earlier that Exhibit 7 you recognize as 15 your appointment calendar from 1991? 16 MR. MYERS: This is Mister Tauscher. 17 MS. ZETTLER: What did I say? 18 MR. MYERS: Doctor. 19 MS. ZETTLER: I'm sorry, Mister 20 Tauscher. So I elevated you a little, although 21 some people would disagree with that being called 22 Doctor is an elevation. Mister Tauscher, you 23 testified earlier that Exhibit 7 you recognize as 24 a copy of your appointment calendar for 1991, Page 235 1 correct? 2 A. That's correct. 3 Q. I'm not going to ask you, 4 trust me, about every single entry on here, okay, 5 but I do have a couple of questions about various 6 entries so just bear with me, okay? 7 A. Okay. 8 Q. The first page under Tuesday, 9 January 15th at about 8:30 a.m., it says Prozac 10 task force, do you see that? 11 A. Yes I do. 12 Q. Can you tell me what the 13 Prozac task force is as referred to in this 14 document? 15 A. On a weekly basis, a meeting 16 would be held with a cross functional management 17 team and other staff members to review various 18 topics associated with Prozac. 19 Q. Do you know when that task 20 force was established? 21 A. I don't recall the exact date. 22 Q. Was it before or after January 23 of 1990? 24 A. I don't recall. Page 236 1 Q. Can you tell me what kind of 2 topics the task force dealt with with regards to 3 Prozac? 4 A. These would be a broad range 5 of topics, everything from sales results to media 6 issues to clinical trials. 7 Q. Did the task force deal with 8 the issue of suicidality and Fluoxetine? 9 A. As it applied to the general 10 topic of Prozac, it would have been part of that, 11 the agendas for that group. 12 Q. And how about the issue of 13 Fluoxetine and violent/aggressive behavior? 14 A. That probably would have been 15 a topic that was also raised at one of the 16 meetings. 17 Q. Okay. Who else was a member 18 of the task force to your knowledge? You can 19 start with 1991. 20 A. The staff group that attended 21 the meetings would vary, but typically would be 22 myself, Ed West from corporate affairs, Doctor 23 Tollefson, and Rebecca Goss from the legal group, 24 and Bob Luedke from the international group. Page 237 1 Q. How you spell Luedke? 2 A. L-U-E-D-K-E. 3 Q. I'm sorry, L-U-E-D-K-E? 4 A. L-U-E-D-K-E. 5 Q. How about in 1990, who were 6 the members of the task force? 7 A. I think probably the same 8 group of people, I can't recall others. 9 Q. Would you go to the third page 10 of the exhibit. 11 A. Your number 496? 12 Q. Right. Actually it's Lilly's 13 number 496, but that's okay. In the middle 14 column at the bottom of the page, it looks like 15 it's, I'm not sure if that's an RON or REW, 16 Chicago, can you tell me what that means? 17 A. That is initials of one of our 18 executives and his schedule which you'll find 19 noted throughout the calendar. 20 Q. Okay. Who is this executive? 21 A. Ron Williams. 22 Q. And what position does he 23 currently hold at Lilly? 24 A. He's vice-president of sales Page 238 1 for the eastern part of the United States. 2 Q. Why is it that his schedule is 3 kept track of on your appointment calendar? 4 A. In 1991, Mister Williams was 5 vice-president of sales for DISTA, and as such, 6 worked very closely with me because I provided 7 marketing plan support to DISTA. 8 Q. Was he your superior? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Who was your superior in 1991, 11 who did you report to? 12 A. Gary Clark, I believe. 13 Q. And what position did Mister 14 Clark hold? 15 A. Vice-president of marketing 16 and development for the U.S. organization. 17 Q. In the right-hand column under 18 2:00 o'clock -- Wednesday, January 23rd at 2:00 19 o'clock, it's kind of difficult to read but it 20 looks like TCR conversion, do you see that? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Can you read that notation? 23 A. No. I mean I read TCR 24 conversion, but I can't read the rest of it. It Page 239 1 doesn't ring a bell with me. 2 Q. Okay. Towards the bottom of 3 that entry it looks around 2:45 or whatever, it 4 says physician litigation letter, do you see 5 that? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Are you aware that Lilly has 8 offered in some cases to indemnify physicians who 9 are being sued as a result of prescribing Prozac? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Okay. Were you involved in 12 drafting that letter? 13 A. I was involved in reviewing 14 the correspondence, yes. 15 Q. Do you have any other 16 involvement in that issue other than reviewing 17 correspondence? 18 A. Probably on the implementation 19 and communication of the program, yes. 20 Q. Can you tell me why that 21 program was implemented? 22 A. From a legal perspective I 23 can't, from my perspective I can try to answer 24 it. Page 240 1 Q. Okay. 2 A. Physicians were being 3 intimidated with all of the media and the 4 possibility of lawsuits associated with the use 5 of Prozac, and on numerous occasions had 6 contacted us about what would happen to them if 7 they were sued because they prescribed the 8 product. And to deal with this issue, the 9 physician indemnity program was developed. 10 Q. Okay. What is your 11 understanding of what that program is? 12 A. My understanding again from a 13 lay person's term is that if a physician who 14 prescribes Prozac within the package insert and 15 is -- encounters a lawsuit associated with that 16 prescription, if that physician requests Lilly's 17 support in defending himself or herself in the 18 lawsuit, that the company would be prepared to do 19 that. 20 Q. What do you mean when you say 21 prescribed Prozac within the package insert? 22 A. Basically just what I said, 23 that if the physician used good medical judgment 24 and followed the package insert in terms of Page 241 1 dosage and indications, et cetera, and was sued 2 as a result of that, the company would be willing 3 to support him or her if there was a lawsuit 4 involved. 5 Q. Was that program considered 6 successful? 7 A. I don't know that I'm in a 8 position to make that judgment. 9 Q. To your knowledge, did it 10 dissuage the fears of the doctors regarding 11 prescribing Prozac and possible litigation? 12 MR. MYERS: I object to the form 13 because it's awfully broad. There are a lot of 14 doctors prescribing the drug and doctors wrapped 15 up in litigation. 16 MS. ZETTLER: He's also testified that 17 this program was implemented in response to 18 concern voiced by doctors through telephone calls 19 to 20 Lilly that he obviously was aware of. I'm asking 21 him if he was aware of whether or not the program 22 assuaged the fears of the doctors. 23 A. I do know we've had fewer 24 phone calls since we had the program. Page 242 1 Q. Are you still getting phone 2 calls? 3 A. Not to my knowledge. 4 Q. Okay. On the next page, 497, 5 center column again, Friday, January 25th, looks 6 like about 3:00 o'clock, it says Patient Profile 7 Results Exposures, do you see that? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Okay. What does that mean? 10 A. I don't know. 11 Q. Do you recall a patient 12 profile being drawn up on Fluoxetine for any 13 reason. 14 A. No. That would not be what 15 that meeting was about. That meeting would quite 16 possibly be a review by the medical group with 17 marketing management on what was our experience 18 to date in terms of feedback from the medical 19 community on the drug, everything from numbers of 20 patients, the estimates of how many patients had 21 now been exposed to the drug, and an update from 22 what we were reporting to the FDA in terms of 23 adverse drug events so that we were aware of what 24 we were experiencing from a corporate standpoint. Page 243 1 Q. To your knowledge, has Lilly 2 ever developed a trial or a study that was meant 3 to elicit from doctors the profile of what types 4 of patients they were using Prozac on? 5 A. Lilly has conducted market 6 research from the day that we launched the 7 product to understand where physicians were 8 finding the drug useful in the treatment of 9 depression. So to that extent, yes, studies were 10 done, but they were market research studies. 11 Q. Are the results of those 12 studies still in existence? 13 A. I would assume that they are. 14 Q. Are they in written form 15 somewhere? 16 A. I'm sorry? 17 Q. Are they in written form 18 somewhere to your knowledge? 19 A. If they are in written form 20 they would be in the marketing studies group, 21 yes. 22 Q. Are you aware what type of 23 patient physicians are most often using Prozac 24 with? Page 244 1 MR. MYERS: Wait a minute. From those 2 studies or just -- 3 MS. ZETTLER: Right, from the studies. 4 A. Studies have been run from the 5 date that the product is launched to today and 6 the profiles have changed over time. As doctors 7 got more experience they changed. 8 Q. How about now, what is the 9 typical Prozac patient profile? 10 A. There really isn't a typical 11 patient because the doctors have found utility 12 across the range of patients. 13 Q. How about depressed patients, 14 what's the typical depressed patient profile for 15 Fluoxetine? 16 A. That's the patient where the 17 drug is being used is in depression. And like I 18 say that because of the use of the drug, it'll be 19 very broad, it will not be very narrow in terms 20 of that profile, it'll include all types of 21 patients. 22 Q. Have you heard of doctors 23 avoiding the use of Prozac in agitated depressed 24 patients? Page 245 1 A. I've heard of doctors being 2 careful about how they use the drug in patients 3 who had symptoms of anxiety or agitation who are 4 depressed. 5 Q. Prior to being put on Prozac 6 or during Prozac therapy? 7 A. No. I said the use of the 8 drug in patients who had symptoms of anxiety or 9 agitation who were depressed, these people 10 present with those symptoms along with their 11 depression. 12 Q. That's what I was trying to 13 clarify. Who are some of -- what are some of 14 these initials at the bottom of this note, looks 15 like NMO, GFC, EWL? 16 A. Are you on 497 now? 17 Q. Right, same note the Patient 18 Profile Results Exposure. 19 A. GJC is Gary Clark, EWL is E. 20 Walter Lang, WRR is Bill Ringo, Wheadon is David 21 Wheadon, and Beasley is Charles Beasley. 22 Q. Can you make out what it says 23 before Wheadon? 24 A. No, I can't. Page 246 1 Q. Looks like AJ, does that help 2 you? 3 A. No, it doesn't. 4 Q. Okay. Couple of pages back on 5 page 499. Again the middle column, it looks like 6 it's February 1st, Friday, February 1st at about 7 12:30, it says Joint Advisory Teams, do you see 8 that? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. What's a Joint Advisory Team? 11 A. In this particular case, this 12 would be a group of sales representatives that 13 are used as consultants to the marketing plans 14 teams on the various products and what are their 15 promotional folder needs and do they have enough 16 samples and things of that nature. 17 Q. Is this advisory team specific 18 to Fluoxetine? 19 A. No. We have advisory teams 20 for all the products. 21 Q. So somebody -- there may be an 22 advisory team for Fluoxetine that was present at 23 that meeting? 24 A. Because it says Joint Advisory Page 247 1 Team and seeing the people in it, it would have 2 been a sales representative from a couple of the 3 sales organizations. And they could have been 4 consulting with us on different products. 5 Q. On the next page, page 500, on 6 the left-hand side under Monday, February 4th at 7 3:00 o'clock, it looks like it says Prozac PI 8 Webber, do you see that? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Okay. What does that refer 11 to, if you know? 12 A. Al Webber is in our regulatory 13 group and Prozac PI would be the package insert. 14 That indicates that Al Webber was holding a 15 meeting on the Prozac package insert. 16 Q. Did Doctor Webber hold regular 17 meetings on the package insert? 18 A. No. 19 Q. What occasion would he hold 20 meetings on the package insert? 21 A. It could be a variety of 22 reasons. We could have been running out of 23 package inserts and there was an issue with 24 production. There could have been a request from Page 248 1 the FDA to change the insert. There could have 2 been as a result of information that the company 3 had received the need to increase the package 4 insert in terms of detail. We could have a new 5 indication to the package insert. So a lot of 6 different reasons. 7 Q. Okay. Middle section at the 8 top, it says Select versus Lilly, do you see 9 that? 10 A. That's Select and Lilly. 11 Q. Okay. What does that refer 12 to? 13 A. The time of this would be, 14 this is February so I believe there was a joint 15 sales meeting going on on those dates. 16 Q. Was that necessarily specific 17 to Fluoxetine? 18 A. No, not necessarily. It could 19 have been because I had multiple product 20 responsibilities. It could have been something, 21 another product. 22 Q. Under that it says Prozac Task 23 Force, do you see that? 24 A. Uh-huh. Page 249 1 Q. You have to say yes or no. 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Would that be the same task 4 force we were talking about earlier? 5 A. That's correct. 6 Q. Okay. Four pages back, page 7 504, left-hand side of the page about 3:00 8 o'clock, it says Interviews for Potential Lilly 9 Witnesses, Witness, do you see that? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. What do you mean by that 12 entry? 13 MR. MYERS: He's not going to tell 14 you. I read it as having Ms. Huff's name there 15 and to the extent it's something legal, I'm going 16 to instruct him not to answer. 17 MS. ZETTLER: We haven't established 18 that it is something legal. 19 MR. MYERS: Okay. Well, go ahead ask 20 another question. 21 MS. ZETTLER: If we establish it as 22 legal then obviously you can make your objection. 23 MR. MYERS: But I made a deduction. 24 MS. ZETTLER: Larry, you know what Page 250 1 they say about deductions. 2 MR. MYERS: Go ahead and ask another 3 question. 4 Q. Is this a witness that is 5 interviewed in relation to a litigation to your 6 knowledge, or is this somebody that is going to 7 be used as a spokesperson for Lilly on behalf of 8 Prozac or something along those lines? 9 A. I don't recall what this 10 meeting was about, but it is with Mary Huff from 11 our legal division. 12 Q. Okay. What does that suggest 13 to you, that it is -- 14 A. It suggests to me that it is 15 privileged and we can't discuss it. 16 Q. Well let me ask you this, has 17 there been occasions where Ms. Huff or anybody 18 else from the legal department have been involved 19 in discussing experts that are going to be 20 retained to testify on behalf of Lilly in the 21 public realm, like -- 22 A. No. 23 Q. -- say, for instance, in a 24 news program or something along those lines? Page 251 1 A. No. They may be present 2 during such discussions but to participate in 3 such decisions, no. 4 Q. Okay. Have you been involved 5 with the preparation, other than your deposition 6 testimony, preparation for litigation in Prozac? 7 You don't have to tell me what your involvement 8 was, just generally. 9 A. I'm not sure I understand the 10 question. 11 Q. Have you been involved in a 12 meeting with potential witnesses? 13 MR. MYERS: You can answer that yes or 14 no. 15 A. No. 16 Q. Okay. On the right-hand side 17 of the page, the last entry, it looks like it 18 says Dinner, Nemeroff, do you see that? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Who are Buck and Jim? 21 A. Buck Payne in 1991 was the 22 product manager for Lovan and Jim is Jim 23 Lancaster, product manager for Prozac. 24 Q. Is Doctor Nemeroff -- I'm Page 252 1 assuming that's Doctor Nemeroff, Charles 2 Nemeroff? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Okay. Has Doctor Nemeroff 5 consulted with Lilly on the use of Fluoxetine for 6 any indication other than the use of depression? 7 MR. MYERS: Don't answer that. He's 8 not going to answer that. 9 MS. ZETTLER: Larry, these questions 10 all go to safety as well as efficacy and you know 11 it. 12 MR. MYERS: Ask him that question 13 then. You're not going to ask him a general 14 question. 15 MS. ZETTLER: He can't say whether or 16 not he was a consultant? 17 MR. MYERS: On Lovan generally he's 18 not going to answer that specific question. 19 Q. Has Doctor Nemeroff ever 20 consulted with Lilly on Fluoxetine or safety 21 issues on Fluoxetine for any indication other 22 than depression? 23 MR. MYERS: You can answer that. 24 A. No. Page 253 1 Q. Is Doctor Nemeroff a 2 psychiatrist? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Does he have any other 5 subspecialties or specialties to your knowledge? 6 A. He might, but I don't know of 7 them. 8 Q. Next page, 505, left-hand 9 column under 10:00 o'clock, do you see that, it 10 says here dash or looks like Pryne or Prune, do 11 you see that? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Okay. Tell me what that name 14 is? 15 A. Rick Pruyne, P-R-U-Y-N-E. 16 Q. Who was Rick Pruyne? 17 A. He was a product manager on 18 the Prozac team reporting to Mister Lancaster. 19 Q. Okay. And under 12:15, it 20 likes like a PH and it says Nemeroff again. 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. What does PH stand for to your 23 knowledge? 24 A. This is the executive dining Page 254 1 room. 2 Q. Okay. And who are ELS and 3 EWL? 4 A. Mister Gene Step and Mister E 5 Walter Lang. 6 Q. Does that -- do you know what 7 the subject matter of that meeting was? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Can you tell me what it is? 10 A. Doctor Nemeroff was visiting 11 physicians at Lilly research labs, and we took 12 the opportunity to introduce him to Mister Step 13 and Mister Lang, we just had lunch together. 14 Q. Was Doctor Nemeroff visiting 15 Lilly related to Fluoxetine? 16 A. I'm not -- well, probably so, 17 but I'm not privy to what his discussions were 18 with LRL. His discussions with us were with 19 regard to Fluoxetine. 20 Q. Okay. Fluoxetine and 21 depression? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. What subject with regards to 24 Fluoxetine and depression? Page 255 1 A. Mister Step and Mister Lang 2 were simply interested in Doctor Nemeroff's view 3 of the drug and its utility in the treatment of 4 depression because he's an expert in the field. 5 Q. Did the subject of suicidality 6 come up? 7 A. I don't recall. 8 Q. How about violent/aggressive 9 behavior? 10 A. Let me come back and say I do 11 recall suicidality coming up in the discussion, I 12 don't recall violent behavior. 13 Q. Okay. What was discussed 14 regarding suicidality? 15 A. Doctor Teicher's study was 16 discussed. 17 Q. Okay. Even as late as 1991? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. What about Doctor Teicher's 20 study, what did Doctor Nemeroff say about Doctor 21 Teicher's study? 22 A. Doctor Nemeroff had trained 23 with Doctor Teicher and had personal observations 24 about Doctor Teicher. Page 256 1 Q. What were those observations? 2 A. Not very complementary. 3 Q. Okay. What were they? 4 A. I don't recall. 5 Q. Anything else that Doctor 6 Nemeroff said about Doctor Teicher or his study? 7 A. Doctor Nemeroff was quite 8 critical of the scientific merit of Doctor 9 Teicher's study. 10 Q. What was it about the 11 scientific merit that he was critical of? 12 A. It lacked scientific merit. 13 Q. Why? 14 A. Lacked. 15 Q. Why? 16 A. Because it was not a 17 controlled study. It lacked a sufficient number 18 of subjects to draw the statements and 19 conclusions that were made in the paper. 20 Q. How about anything else 21 related to suicidality, any other discussions? 22 A. No. 23 Q. Why is it that you recall this 24 meeting specifically as being the meeting where Page 257 1 Doctor Nemeroff was critical of Doctor Teicher? 2 A. Because he was so adamant 3 about it. 4 Q. Has Doctor Nemeroff ever 5 written anything that was critical of Doctor 6 Teicher's article to your knowledge? 7 A. I don't know. 8 Q. Do you know if he's ever 9 publicly voiced his opinions about Doctor 10 Teicher's article? 11 A. I'm -- yes, I know that he 12 has. 13 Q. Where? 14 A. I've been present in a couple 15 of scientific meetings where the subject of 16 suicidality has come up and Doctor Nemeroff has 17 commented on the quality of the work or lack 18 therein. 19 Q. Okay. When you say scientific 20 meetings what do you mean? 21 A. I'm talking about medical 22 symposium with other psychiatrists. 23 Q. Okay. Were these symposiums 24 held at like association meetings or things of Page 258 1 that nature? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Has Doctor Teicher ever been 4 present when Doctor Nemeroff has been critical of 5 his work? 6 A. I haven't been there. I've 7 heard that he has been but I have not been there 8 myself. 9 Q. Okay. Tell me what you've 10 heard about Doctor Nemeroff's being critical of 11 Doctor Teicher's work in the presense of Doctor 12 Teicher? 13 A. I can't give you any details. 14 I just know that it's happened. 15 Q. Is it your understanding that 16 there was an exchange of words between Doctor 17 Nemeroff and Doctor Teicher about the quality of 18 Doctor Teicher's work? 19 A. No. 20 Q. Why is it that Doctor Nemeroff 21 is so adamant against Doctor Teicher's work, if 22 you know? 23 A. As I already -- I've told you 24 that. Page 259 1 Q. Have you heard Doctor Nemeroff 2 being critical of other people's work in the way 3 he's critical of Doctor Teicher's? 4 A. I've heard him critique other 5 physicians' work, yes. 6 Q. Any other physicians who have 7 published work on or done work on Fluoxetine? 8 A. I don't believe I've had the 9 occasion to have that kind of conversation with 10 Doctor Nemeroff, so I wouldn't be able to say 11 that he has or hasn't. 12 Q. What was it that Doctor 13 Nemeroff said related to Doctor Teicher's 14 training that was negative, if anything? 15 MR. MYERS: I don't think he said 16 that. I think he said they trained together. 17 MS. ZETTLER: That's why I said if 18 anything. 19 MR. MYERS: I'm sorry. 20 A. Could you repeat the question? 21 Q. What has Doctor Nemeroff said 22 related to Doctor Teicher's training that was 23 negative, if anything? 24 A. His performance as a resident Page 260 1 was commented on. 2 Q. Was this something that Doctor 3 Nemeroff was giving his opinion on or is this 4 something that he offered proof of? 5 A. It was a comment that I don't 6 have the details that I can share with you. 7 Q. Who else was in this meeting 8 where Doctor Nemeroff was talking, criticizing 9 Doctor Teicher's work? General stuff and -- 10 A. Wally Lang. 11 Q. Anybody else? 12 A. Myself. 13 Q. Anybody else? 14 A. No. 15 Q. This took place in, at Lilly 16 in Indianapolis? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. In the center column under 19 February 22nd, it looks like -- 20 A. I want to clarify one comment 21 about this last exchange. The comments that were 22 made by Doctor Nemeroff took all of about two 23 minutes during a lunch. So this was not a 24 meeting where the subject was Doctor Teicher's Page 261 1 work but it was just luncheon conversation. 2 Q. Who raised the subject? 3 MR. MYERS: Of? 4 MS. ZETTLER: Doctor Teicher's work. 5 A. I believe it was Mister Step. 6 Q. What was the context that 7 Mister Step raised the subject? 8 A. He asked Doctor Nemeroff's 9 opinion of the work. 10 Q. Okay. Center column under 11 1:00 o'clock. Do you see that? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. It says Prozac APA something, 14 can you read that, maybe program? 15 A. APA Program for Public 16 Affairs. 17 Q. How about the rest of that 18 entry? 19 A. With Ed West, Jim Lancaster. 20 I don't know that I recognize the other initials 21 as who they are. 22 Q. And then under that at 1:30, 23 what does it say? 24 A. 1:30 says Doctor Teicher, Page 262 1 Lang, Goss, and Doctor Zerbe. 2 Q. What does that indicate to 3 you? 4 A. That there was a meeting in 5 the conference room 12B at 1:30, and the general 6 topic was Doctor Teicher and those were the 7 attendees. 8 Q. Were you there at that 9 meeting? 10 A. It wouldn't have been on my 11 calendar had I not been invited. I don't recall 12 specifically that I was there, but it was on my 13 calendar because I was invited. 14 Q. If Doctor Teicher's article 15 was of such little value as Doctor Nemeroff had 16 opined, why was it such a concern at Lilly that 17 you had to have a meeting on it and things of 18 that nature? 19 A. We don't know what this 20 meeting was about. It could have been a variety 21 of subjects. It could not even have been his 22 paper, so I'm not sure that we can draw that 23 observation. 24 Q. Doctor Teicher was a specific Page 263 1 subject of a meeting that was held a day after 2 your opinion luncheon with Doctor Nemeroff, 3 correct? 4 A. That's correct. 5 Q. And this is about a year after 6 Doctor Teicher's article was published, was it 7 not, February of 1991? 8 A. That's correct. 9 Q. Doctor Teicher's article has 10 come up at other meetings at Lilly, has it not? 11 A. Over time, yes. 12 Q. It's come up with, the subject 13 has come up with various symposia that Lilly has 14 participated in or funded, has it not? 15 A. When the topics of the 16 symposium included suicidality, yes. 17 Q. Any other publications 18 discussing suicidality as it relates to the use 19 of Fluoxetine in a negative light that have been 20 discussed at Lilly meetings? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Which articles? 23 A. I don't recall. 24 Q. Which authors? Page 264 1 A. I don't recall. I do recall 2 the institution, State University of New York, 3 I'm not sure if it was Albany or Buffalo, but a 4 couple of physicians published their findings and 5 I recall meetings on that particular occasion. 6 Q. Meetings at Lilly? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Any outside consultants such 9 as Doctor Nemeroff who were in attendance at 10 those meetings? 11 A. I don't recall. 12 Q. Who would have been in 13 attendance at those meetings from Lilly? 14 A. Depending on when they took 15 place, Doctor Tollefson could have been, Doctor 16 Zerbe could have been, Doctor Wheadon, Doctor 17 Beasley, Doctor Heiligenstein. 18 MS. ZETTLER: Larry, I'm not going to 19 finish today. 20 MR. MYERS: Off the record. 21 (OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION) 22 MR. MYERS: It's about 5:15 or 5:20 23 and Ms. Zettler has advised me that she's got at 24 least in the neighborhood of about four hours to Page 265 1 go which involves some document testimony. I am 2 agreeable to recessing the deposition and to 3 rescheduling it to commence on another day. I'm 4 not willing and we will not produce Mister 5 Tauscher to continue from day to day in the 6 future but we will schedule him to hopefully 7 complete his deposition within the course of 8 another business day. The plaintiffs have asked 9 for copies of transcripts of his former 10 depositions which we will consider that request 11 and make sure there are no constraints from the 12 other litigation in doing that, and we'll 13 consider that request with the object being if 14 those can be furnished that they will move this 15 thing along. 16 MS. ZETTLER: Our position is, first 17 of all, there's no restriction on the number of 18 days that we can depose somebody, as long as we 19 show that it is not harassing. In fact I think 20 there was an order on point that has been sent 21 out today. I have no intentions of dragging 22 Mister Tauscher's deposition on beyond the time 23 that I need to depose him. I have requested the 24 deposition transcripts from the other depositions Page 266 1 that Mister Tauscher has given in the hopes of 2 shortening and maybe even negating the need to 3 take Mister Tauscher's further deposition, if 4 there is some sort of agreement that those 5 depositions can be used as if they were taken in 6 this case. 7 MR. MYERS: Right. I think we agree 8 on a number of things and my point is simply 9 this, presently we'll agree to recommence the 10 deposition but not to continue simply from day to 11 day. If there becomes an issue then maybe we'll 12 have to seek some relief, but I would like to be 13 able to recommence it with some agreement that we 14 will complete the deposition in the course of 15 another business day. If we run into that 16 problem we'll simply have to deal with it when we 17 run into it. 18 MS. ZETTLER: Right. Larry, you know 19 how these things go. I can't foresee going more 20 than a day at this point, but I can't get myself 21 in box that it's, you know, something may come up 22 out of the blue that I didn't anticipate. I mean 23 I can't agree to that. I will promise you that 24 I'll make every effort to complete the deposition Page 267 1 at the most a day, but provided that issues don't 2 arise that we didn't anticipate, I don't want to 3 make a hard and fast agreement to that affect. I 4 will promise you that I will do my best to finish 5 it within a day and I don't anticipate at this 6 point going any longer than a day. But it sure 7 would help us if you get us copy of the other 8 depositions. 9 MR. MYERS: As I said, we'll consider 10 your request and among other things see if we're 11 constrained in anyway, and I don't disagree that 12 might not help move it along. 13 (THE WITNESS WAS EXCUSED.) 14 Page 268 1 COMMONWEALTH OF KENTUCKY ) 2 : ss COUNTY OF JEFFERSON ) 3 4 I, MARY KATHLEEN NOLD, A NOTARY PUBLIC IN 5 AND FOR THE STATE OF KENTUCKY AT LARGE, DO HEREBY 6 CERTIFY THAT THE FOREGOING TESTIMONY OF 7 GARY L. TAUSCHER 8 WAS TAKEN BEFORE ME AT THE TIME AND PLACE AS 9 STATED IN THE CAPTION; THAT THE WITNESS WAS FIRST 10 DULY SWORN TO TELL THE TRUTH, THE WHOLE TRUTH, 11 AND NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH; THAT THE SAID 12 PROCEEDINGS WERE TAKEN DOWN BY ME IN STENOGRAPHIC 13 NOTES AND AFTERWARDS TRANSCRIBED UNDER MY 14 DIRECTION; THAT IT IS A TRUE, COMPLETE AND 15 CORRECT TRANSCRIPT OF THE SAID PROCEEDINGS SO 16 HAD; THAT THE APPEARANCES WERE AS STATED IN THE 17 CAPTION. 18 WITNESS MY SIGNATURE THIS THE 3RD DAY OF 19 FEBRUARY, 1994. 20 MY COMMISSION EXPIRES MARCH 10, 1994. 21 22 23 _________________________ MARY KATHLEEN NOLD 24 COURT REPORTER AND NOTARY PUBLIC STATE OF KENTUCKY AT LARGE Page 269 1 2 E R R A T A S H E E T 3 4 COMMONWEALTH OF KENTUCKY ) : SS 5 COUNTY OF JEFFERSON ) 6 7 I, GARY L. TAUSCHER, THE UNDERSIGNED 8 DEPONENT, HAVE THIS DATE READ THE FOREGOING PAGES 9 OF MY DEPOSITION AND WITH THE CHANGES NOTED 10 BELOW, IF ANY, THESE PAGES CONSTITUTE A TRUE AND 11 ACCURATE TRANSCRIPTION OF MY DEPOSITION GIVEN ON 12 THE 14TH DAY OF DECEMBER, 1993 AT THE TIME AND 13 PLACE STATED THEREIN. 14 PAGE NO. LINE NO. CHANGE REASON Page 270 1 2 PAGE NO. LINE NO. CHANGE REASON 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 _____________________________ 10 GARY L. TAUSCHER 11 SWORN TO AND SUBSCRIBED BEFORE ME THIS 12 _____ DAY OF __________, 1994. 13 _____________________________ NOTARY PUBLIC, STATE OF 14 KENTUCKY AT LARGE Page 271 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 Page 272