1 1 NO. 90-CI-06033 JEFFERSON CIRCUIT COURT DIVISION ONE 2 3 4 JOYCE FENTRESS, et al PLAINTIFFS 5 6 VS TRANSCRIPT OF THE PROCEEDINGS 7 8 9 SHEA COMMUNICATIONS, et al DEFENDANTS 10 11 *** 12 13 14 TUESDAY, SEPTEMBER 27, 1994 15 VOLUME II 16 17 *** 18 19 20 _____________________________________________________________ 21 REPORTER: JULIA K. McBRIDE Coulter, Shay, McBride & Rice 22 1221 Starks Building 455 South Fourth Avenue 23 Louisville, Kentucky 40202 (502) 582-1627 24 FAX: (502) 587-6299 25 2 1 2 I N D E X 3 4 Hearing................................................ 4-19 5 Voir Dire.............................................. 6 Reporter's Certificate................................. 7 8 * * * 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 3 1 A P P E A R A N C E S 2 FOR THE PLAINTIFFS: 3 PAUL L. SMITH 4 Suite 745 Campbell Center II 5 8150 North Central Expressway Dallas, Texas 75206 6 NANCY ZETTLER 7 1405 West Norwell Lane Schaumburg, Illinois 60193 8 IRVIN D. FOLEY 9 Rubin, Hays & Foley Third Floor South 10 First Trust Centre 200 South Fifth Street 11 Louisville, Kentucky 40202 12 FOR THE DEFENDANT: 13 EDWARD H. STOPHER 14 Boehl, Stopher & Graves 2300 Providian Center 15 Louisville, Kentucky 40202 16 JOE C. FREEMAN, JR. LAWRENCE J. MYERS 17 Freeman & Hawkins 4000 One Peachtree Center 18 303 Peachtree Street, N.E. Atlanta, Georgia 30308 19 ALSO PRESENT: 20 DOCTOR W. LEIGH THOMPSON 21 22 23 24 25 4 1 The Transcript of the Proceedings, taken before 2 The Honorable John Potter in the Multipurpose Courtroom, Old 3 Jail Office Building, Louisville, Kentucky, commencing on 4 Tuesday, September 27, 1994, at approximately 9:00 A.M., said 5 proceedings occurred as follows: 6 7 * * * 8 9 (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS OCCURRED IN ROOM 148. 10 PRESENT WERE MS. ZETTLER, MESSRS. SMITH, 11 STOPHER, FREEMAN, MYERS, BENSINGER, STEIN AND 12 NEWBAUER) 13 14 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Smith, why don't you recite 15 for the record the substance of what you-all told me over the 16 telephone last night in a three-way call with Mr. Stopher and 17 any developments that have taken place since then. 18 MR. SMITH: Yesterday I was advised by Mr. Carl 19 Bensinger, one of the attorneys for one of the plaintiffs in 20 this case, that he had been approached yesterday by a former 21 employee of Mr. Ed Stopher and that this former employee had 22 called him and advised that she would like to help the 23 plaintiffs in this case by giving them information concerning 24 what Mr. Stopher knew about this case, including some type of 25 document that apparently was a compilation of a chronology of 5 1 the events in this case or the -- something having to do with 2 the parties and attorneys in this case. He did not describe 3 to me in detail what that document was; apparently, he didn't 4 know in detail what that document was. When Mr. Bensinger 5 advised me of this -- actually, he advised me of this before 6 we started jury selection yesterday morning -- I was just 7 walking into the courtroom and, frankly, put it out of my mind 8 because I didn't -- that was all he had told me. 9 Then Mr. Bensinger came to Mr. Foley's office 10 late yesterday afternoon when we were reviewing the jury 11 charges and gave me the details that I recited here. I felt 12 at that time that since Mr. Bensinger had advised that it was 13 his understanding that this former employee of Mr. Stopher's 14 had what probably was work product of Mr. Stopher, that I 15 should advise the Court and Mr. Stopher immediately, and 16 that's what I did. 17 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Let the record reflect 18 that Mr. Bensinger is here. What are you and Mr. Bensinger's 19 intentions? 20 MR. SMITH: My intentions are, as I told Mr. 21 Bensinger last night, to have no communication with this 22 former employee and to not at all review any documents that 23 she might have to give us, since I don't think I'm entitled to 24 see that. It's certainly not anything that I should have, I 25 believe. 6 1 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Mr. Stopher, without 2 getting into anything else that -- Mr. Smith has put on the 3 record what's happened, he's stated his intention, you know, 4 not to pursue the matter any further or allow the person to 5 give them documents, is there anything you think we need to do 6 today or at any time other than, you know, have this in the 7 the record so it's their position? 8 MR. STOPHER: The only thing that occurs to me 9 is, Judge, that I would like the name of the employee that did 10 this or is trying to do this. The second thing is that I want 11 an agreement that this is not something that will be discussed 12 with the press. It's not something that was done with my 13 knowledge or consent or approval, obviously, and I do not 14 think that it's appropriate to discuss this with the press 15 under any circumstances. 16 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Let's take them up in 17 reverse order. Mr. Bensinger, Mr. Smith, you know, does 18 everybody agree that this is something that won't be mentioned 19 to the press? 20 MR. SMITH: Absolutely. 21 JUDGE POTTER: As far as giving the name, see, 22 he doesn't practice a lot of criminal law or he'd know that 23 when you talk about an informant, he/she, he/she so he's 24 giving you a clue. Or maybe he's clever enough to have read 25 the statute that says anytime you use one gender it applies to 7 1 both, so it's really a man and he's covering up. I don't 2 know. In any event, I'm uncertain that they have an 3 obligation to reveal the person's name. I mean, it's just 4 a -- what we're dealing with is, from your-all's point of view 5 is theft -- a crime of theft by unlawful taking of property 6 having a value under $100. 7 (PROCEEDINGS INTERRUPTED BY A KNOCK ON THE DOOR) 8 JUDGE POTTER: As far as the Court goes, there's 9 probably -- I don't know if it's a crime or not, but if Mr. 10 Bensinger -- first of all, Mr. Bensinger, just out of 11 curiosity, do you know the name, or is this just somebody that 12 just called you up and said, you know, "I'm a former 13 employee"? 14 MR. BENSINGER: Judge, I agree with what you've 15 said. I do know the name. 16 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. 17 MR. SMITH: I don't know the name. 18 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. I guess you'd have to show 19 me something that convinced me that he has to say that. I 20 mean, it's basically a citizen in Kentucky, for better or for 21 worse, is not obligated to report a crime. 22 MR. STOPHER: I understand he's not obligated 23 to, Judge. As an officer of the court and in the interest of 24 preserving work product, I think we all have an interest in 25 keeping our confidential matters confidential; and in the 8 1 interest of trying to do that, I would appreciate him giving 2 me the name. I have no interest in prosecuting this person 3 individually but I do have a great interest, as I think all 4 parties do, in making sure that this kind of thing doesn't go 5 on. And without her name, there's no way that I can prevent 6 her from going further with this. So if Mr. Bensinger wants 7 an assurance -- 8 JUDGE POTTER: I spoke before Mr. Bensinger got 9 an opportunity to say whether he had an objection to giving 10 the person's name or not. 11 MR. STOPHER: I have some suspicions as to who 12 this individual is. She has told me in the past that she 13 lives in an apartment that Carl either owns or has some 14 interest in or lives there. And if that's the individual, 15 then I know who it is, but I'm very interested in determining 16 whether or not this is going to continue to go on from her. 17 And I have no interest in prosecuting her criminally; I don't 18 think that accomplishes a great deal. But I am interested in 19 getting the documents back in the proper hands and making sure 20 that you're not approached or anybody else is not approached 21 again. 22 JUDGE POTTER: Well, I think you can safely say 23 you know who the individual is. 24 MR. STOPHER: Do you have any disagreement? 25 MR. BENSINGER: I'd leave it alone. I'd leave 9 1 it there, Ed. 2 MR. STOPHER: Okay. 3 JUDGE POTTER: And I tell you what. It's on the 4 record. It's done. They're not going to take the documents. 5 Mr. Bensinger, is your impression that this person is then 6 going to take these documents to a newspaper or peddle them 7 with somebody else or do you think this was just because -- 8 MR. BENSINGER: Correct. 9 JUDGE POTTER: And I am -- I'm going to assume 10 it was the apartment house? 11 MR. BENSINGER: I would give this feeling that I 12 have. Number One, I don't think it's any kind of real 13 confidential document. 14 MR. STOPHER: I don't, either. 15 JUDGE POTTER: I suspect it's Exhibit A. 16 MR. BENSINGER: I believe it's one of your 17 exhibits. 18 MR. STOPHER: Right. 19 MR. BENSINGER: I learned no information. The 20 call came at midnight. I know we -- I know nothing. I got 21 nothing. I feel that everybody's better off to leave it be. 22 MR. STOPHER: Well, if it's the individual that 23 I suspect it is and perhaps you know it is, I'm not sure what 24 the situation is. It's not a situation of great stability, 25 and I can assure everybody else that there is no compilation 10 1 of attorneys or parties or any secret information concerning 2 anybody in this room. 3 MR. FREEMAN: If that were to be accomplished, 4 we'd have a whole room full of documents. 5 MR. STOPHER: Nothing like that exists. She did 6 type a chronology of Joseph Wesbecker. 7 JUDGE POTTER: Exhibit B or. 8 JUROR NO. 216: I think the best thing is just 9 to let it lie. And after this case is over, Mr. Stopher, if 10 you think you're entitled to that information, we'll take it 11 up. But I think just as a practical matter, the less 12 attention that's drawn to it, the better. 13 MR. STOPHER: I agree with all of that. If it 14 does occur again to anybody, I'd like to have it brought to my 15 attention and to the Court's attention just like it was last 16 night, because I cannot be responsible, nor can you-all, for 17 what she's going to do, or he, or whoever it may be, and I 18 don't want anybody put in a compromised position because of 19 somebody outside of our control. 20 JUDGE POTTER: Right. And the other reason to 21 bring it to people's attention is because it would indicate 22 that it might create a problem for us. I mean, you know, I 23 mean, even if it is Exhibit A, she goes to Chuck Olmstead or 24 one of the newspaper people and -- Mr. Smith, Louisville has 25 been the center of a disgruntled law firm employee turning 11 1 over documents, and we're talking about the tobacco case, that 2 could create a serious misimpression if it's just... My 3 solution to this was to send you-all to Judge Wine because I'm 4 sure he's an expert on what to do. 5 MR. BENSINGER: I have one other thing, Judge. 6 When I was telling my Counsel -- and I hope my Counsel 7 mentioned this one -- Friday afternoon I got a call when I was 8 out of the office, there was a call that came in the office 9 that asked if I was there and how I was, and my secretary said 10 I was fine, and this individual said, "Well, I'll take care of 11 that." So it was some kind of threat. 12 MR. STOPHER: I had some calls yesterday, as 13 well, and very disturbed people. It's a shame. 14 JUDGE POTTER: Let me -- I don't understand the 15 dynamics of this. Mr. Smith, you indicated when we did voir 16 dire that your clients didn't want their addresses given out 17 and you said it was because, you know, they wanted to maintain 18 some privacy. Is it just the press that they're worried about 19 or is there some -- 20 MR. SMITH: No. My concern was simply the 21 press. I didn't want somebody pulling up in their front yard 22 interviewing them to where I would lose control over what they 23 said. I was doing it for our own self interest, not out of 24 any -- 25 JUDGE POTTER: And Mr. Stopher and Mr. Bensinger, 12 1 you-all see these as people who take Prozac and are afraid 2 somehow this case is going to mess up their right to the 3 drug -- or access to the drug, or these are people that have 4 never taken Prozac and think it's an evil thing, or who are 5 these people? Because Mr. Stopher said one time at a pretrial 6 conference that he's gotten letters and calls and stuff. I 7 mean, who are these people? 8 MR. BENSINGER: Judge, my clients, while this 9 was going on -- and they have many letters -- were threatened 10 while all this was going on at the very beginning of the 11 shooting. There were threats, letters that came, police 12 investigated, it's a matter of record. And they were harassed 13 during all their grieving period. 14 JUDGE POTTER: By whom? I'm trying to get the 15 dynamics. 16 MR. BENSINGER: People out in the community that 17 wrote them letters about this. I don't know why, but they 18 have a series of letters they'll be glad to produce. 19 JUDGE POTTER: But because of this lawsuit, 20 certainly not because they're victims in a crime. 21 MR. BENSINGER: I don't remember that because 22 that came at the very beginning, and I don't know if it was 23 the crime or the lawsuit. I'd have to go back. I'm not sure. 24 This was four years ago. 25 JUDGE POTTER: I guess I'm just naive, I can't 13 1 figure out. 2 MR. FREEMAN: I can't, either. 3 MR. STOPHER: Well, if it's of any benefit for 4 you, the calls that I have received are from people who have a 5 clear decided interest against Prozac. Now, the history of 6 that varies. Some of them have a financial interest, some of 7 them have a claim that they think they have some -- they've 8 been wronged by the drug or whatever. It changes from call to 9 call and communication to communication. And then there's a 10 big group of people that, as I've explained to this group 11 outside of your presence the other day, that are just very 12 frustrated and very upset over this whole situation and they 13 don't know who to lash out at. That's the way I interpret it. 14 So I don't think there is a simple answer to what the Court 15 asks. 16 JUDGE POTTER: I can understand why you're 17 getting bad mail, but I cannot understand why your clients are 18 getting -- 19 MR. FOLEY: Our clients have not received any 20 problems. 21 MR. STOPHER: I think I recall very clearly what 22 Carl is talking about, and it occurred at the time that the 23 lawsuits were filed. And Mr. Seidenfaden, if I recall 24 correctly, was so afraid that he had a number of death threats 25 directed toward his house. 14 1 JUDGE POTTER: But not Ms. Fentress, not anybody 2 else? 3 MR. STOPHER: I think it was just your client. 4 MR. BENSINGER: I only know about David 5 Seidenfaden. He's got a series of letters and he's got a list 6 of those. 7 MR. STOPHER: I think there was a prime suspect 8 for the author of those things, and I don't know what was ever 9 done about it. I'm not sure. It didn't make any sense to him 10 at the time. I recall him testifying about it at his 11 deposition. It doesn't make any sense to me now. 12 MR. FOLEY: Several plaintiffs have given 13 interviews on TV, had quite a bit of exposure and they've 14 received no problems whatsoever. John Stein has been on TV 15 numerous times. 16 JUDGE POTTER: Was the prime suspect somebody 17 that knew Mr. Seidenfaden, I mean, a neighbor or somebody like 18 that, so that's why they'd pick him out? 19 MR. STOPHER: My recollection was, Judge -- and 20 Carl, you correct me on this -- my recollection was that it 21 was an individual who picked out Mr. Seidenfaden from the 22 newspaper, started writing him letters that were very 23 disjointed and was going on and on about you think you're 24 going to get a whole lot of money out of this, people like you 25 who just stir up litigation ought to be eliminated, and it was 15 1 that type thing. I don't think anybody ever figured out 2 exactly what the motivation was, whether it had anything at 3 all to do with Prozac or whether it was more related to 4 Standard Gravure. I don't know what. 5 JUDGE POTTER: Well, as I said before, if we 6 have the sheriffs going over people with the metal detectors, 7 but a better thing is you-all know your clients, your clients 8 know the crowd. If there's anybody that they see out there 9 that they're concerned about, just tell the sheriff, "We don't 10 know who this guy is." It's a public proceeding; they have a 11 right to be there, but then the sheriff also has a right to 12 give somebody a little extra attention. So that is, I think, 13 really better than the metal detectors. Without getting 14 paranoid about it, if there's somebody out there that they 15 don't know who they are or they can't decide why they're there 16 or they think is acting funny, just tell my sheriff and my 17 sheriff will ask them who they are and give them a little 18 extra attention. 19 Okay. Let's plan for today. How about we bring 20 the first 25 back that we had yesterday, go down the list to 21 ask them the remainder of the questions, and I think it's safe 22 to say that the two groups from yesterday morning can come 23 back at 1:00. Don't you think? 24 MR. STOPHER: That would be fine. 25 MR. BENSINGER: Judge, I would like to, while 16 1 we're on record, renew the motion to strike the second panel 2 for the reason that in some way the question that you asked 3 the second panel elicited the response of Prozac among many 4 members of the panel. Now, even though the Court is going to 5 dismiss all those people that said they were on Prozac -- 6 JUDGE POTTER: Well -- 7 MR. FREEMAN: We haven't decided that. 8 MR. SMITH: I'm lead counsel here. 9 MR. BENSINGER: I represent Group C, so let me 10 just finish this, Paul. Thank you very much. 11 Therefore, on that basis, all the other members 12 of that panel were contaminated and tainted because they heard 13 this word of so many people on this panel in connection with 14 Prozac, and I want that to be in the record. 15 JUDGE POTTER: I'm going to rule the same for 16 you as I did for Mr. Smith yesterday and deny that motion. 17 MR. BENSINGER: Okay. 18 JUDGE POTTER: Let's take up that issue. And is 19 there anything you want me to read, Mr. Stopher, before we 20 have the first Prozac user come out there and they make a 21 motion to strike him and you object? 22 MR. STOPHER: Judge, I don't have any law. To 23 be perfectly honest with you, I was consumed last night with a 24 few other telephone calls and things to do, to be perfectly 25 candid. I did try to sleep a little while. 17 1 MR. FREEMAN: A few minutes. 2 MR. STOPHER: So, you know, in between the short 3 naps, Judge, I didn't run down to the law library. And I 4 don't mean to be flip about it, Judge. 5 JUDGE POTTER: I understand. 6 MR. STOPHER: My understanding is, quite 7 frankly, after talking to Joe and Larry yesterday, I think it 8 would be a mistake to dismiss them just out of hand. I would 9 request that the Court interview them, determine what the -- 10 what the story really is about the amount of their usage and 11 whether or not it really does affect their thinking on it. 12 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. We'll take that approach, 13 and I guess the issue will come up when we have somebody that 14 says, "Yes, I take Prozac but it wouldn't affect my decision 15 at all." 16 MR. FREEMAN: I think on the other hand if they 17 say it would make me biased toward the drug or against the 18 drug or there's bias on either side that they should be 19 excused. 20 JUDGE POTTER: I think everybody's agreed with 21 that. The question is what happens to the person who says, 22 and apparently says it convincingly, that the fact that I take 23 it or have taken this is not going to influence me one way or 24 the other, and then we'll have it. And, as I said yesterday, 25 I guess it was on the record, my initial reaction is that 18 1 those people should be excused, not so much because they have 2 some information, but I think they would be reluctant to 3 decide anything that would jeopardize their access to a 4 treatment modality that they apparently find beneficial. 5 You know, we would take people off this who own 6 stock in Lilly, and the rationale is not because they love 7 Lilly -- maybe their broker picked it out, they may not even 8 know they have it -- but they would be reluctant to decide a 9 case that might affect them adversely financially. And, 10 obviously, since this case came up, I found out I have friends 11 and people that take Prozac. And I've not discussed it with 12 them in connection with this case, but people that take it and 13 like it don't want to give it up. I mean, it's important to 14 them. I mean, and that's more my basis. 15 We were talking yesterday about cars. If I 16 decide that this car is bad, they're not going to take away 17 my -- what do you do, Suzukis or whatever? They're not going 18 to come and snatch my Suzuki from me. I can still drive it. 19 I may even feel that, hey, if I ever roll over I'll get paid. 20 And I surfed the channels a little bit at 6:00 last night, 21 and, Mr. Freeman, your opinion is that this case could be 22 devastating for the thousands or millions of people that are 23 using it successfully and it would put them at risk. And that 24 type of opinion might come up in the jury room. "Gee, I don't 25 want to do this because they'll take it off the market and 19 1 I'll go back to being an unhappy person." 2 My thought about the circle to draw on that is 3 just knowing somebody that takes it successfully is not good 4 enough. It would have to be like a family member or yourself 5 or maybe you could have some close friend that's almost a 6 family member. But we'll argue it out when we get our first 7 test case. 8 (HEARING CONCLUDED AT 9:40 A.M.; THE FOLLOWING 9 PROCEEDINGS OCCURRED IN THE MULTIPURPOSE 10 COURTROOM) 11 JUDGE POTTER: You want to get Mr. Richard 12 Ackermann, No. 26? 13 (JUROR NO. 26 ENTERS THE COURTROOM) 14 JUDGE POTTER: You're Mr. Ackermann, No.26? 15 JUROR NO. 26: Yes, sir. 16 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. You want to have a seat, 17 sir? Mr. Ackermann, I'll remind you you're still under oath. 18 Yesterday you indicated that you knew Mr. or Mrs. Seidenfaden 19 from Turners a couple years ago? 20 JUROR NO. 26: Yes, sir. 21 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. You can relax, sir. 22 JUROR NO. 26: Okay. 23 JUDGE POTTER: Did you -- they were just members 24 of the Turners or you-all -- or you both had children on the 25 tumbling team or anything? 20 1 JUROR NO. 26: No. I don't think. I'm quite a 2 bit older than them. I don't think we had the children. We 3 just knew each other. 4 JUDGE POTTER: You didn't serve together on the 5 board to pick the new building? 6 JUROR NO. 26: No, sir. 7 JUDGE POTTER: Do you think there's anything 8 about that relationship that would carry over to today? 9 JUROR NO. 26: No, sir. 10 JUDGE POTTER: Are you still a Turner? 11 JUROR NO. 26: Yes, sir. 12 JUDGE POTTER: Is he still a Turner? 13 JUROR NO. 26: No, sir. 14 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. You say you knew several 15 people that worked at Standard Gravure? 16 JUROR NO. 26: Yes, sir. 17 JUDGE POTTER: Were any of them working there in 18 1989? 19 JUROR NO. 26: I was thinking about that when I 20 went home last night. I don't know. I can't remember. 21 JUDGE POTTER: Since you can't remember, I take 22 it you haven't sat down and talked with them? 23 JUROR NO. 26: No. No, sir. No. 24 JUDGE POTTER: Is there anything about those 25 contacts that might carry over to this trial in the sense 21 1 that -- in any sense that you can think of? 2 JUROR NO. 26: I don't think so. 3 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Does anybody else have any 4 questions they want me to ask Mr. Ackermann on this topic? 5 MR. STOPHER: Your Honor, would you ask him who 6 he knew at Standard Gravure? 7 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Just -- 8 JUROR NO. 26: The one I can remember is Tom 9 Albers. 10 JUDGE POTTER: Anyone else? And the lawyers 11 know who might testify in this case and I don't, so that's why 12 they're asking. 13 JUROR NO. 26: I can't think of any other names 14 for sure, but I just remember people saying that's where they 15 worked. 16 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Thank you very much, sir. 17 I'm going to ask you to go back to the jury room there and 18 I'll call you all in in a minute, but I'll remind you about my 19 admonition about talking to other people about the case. 20 (JUROR NO. 26 LEAVES THE COURTROOM) 21 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Mary Baldwin, No. 34. 22 (JUROR NO. 34 ENTERS THE COURTROOM) 23 JUDGE POTTER: Hi. You're Ms. Baldwin, No. 34? 24 JUROR NO. 34: Yes. 25 JUDGE POTTER: You want to have a seat, ma'am. 22 1 Yesterday you indicated that you worked with Mr. Campbell's 2 sister at St. Mary's & Elizabeth? 3 JUROR NO. 34: Yes, sir. 4 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. That was in the outpatient 5 department? 6 JUROR NO. 34: Outpatient admitting, and 7 emergency at times. 8 JUDGE POTTER: How well did you know her? 9 JUROR NO. 34: Just a good working relationship. 10 We went out to eat a couple times. 11 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Have you seen her in the 12 last six years? 13 JUROR NO. 34: Yes. 14 JUDGE POTTER: Does she come over to your house 15 or you just run into her at work or in some shopping centers 16 or what? 17 JUROR NO. 34: I just happened to be at the 18 hospital with my daughter and she was there and we spoke. 19 JUDGE POTTER: Is that the only time? 20 JUROR NO. 34: I guess it is. I don't remember 21 any other time. 22 JUDGE POTTER: Would there be anything about 23 that that would carry over to today? I mean, she took your 24 shift so many times that you feel like you're beholding to her 25 family or anything like that? 23 1 JUROR NO. 34: No. 2 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. How about -- you wanted to 3 tell me about you knew Ms. Chesser, who was Mr. Wesbecker's 4 ex-wife? 5 JUROR NO. 34: Uh-huh. 6 JUDGE POTTER: How did you know her? 7 JUROR NO. 34: I first met her at St. Mary's 8 because she worked there, also. And then she went to work 9 with me. Presently I work at the fire department. She came 10 to work in February before the incident in September, and we 11 were working together when the incident happened. And we 12 still work together. 13 JUDGE POTTER: Today? 14 JUROR NO. 34: Today. 15 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Have you talked with her a 16 good deal about this? 17 JUROR NO. 34: Not in depth; in bits and pieces 18 when things would arise. Nothing -- it was more concerning 19 her children, not... 20 JUDGE POTTER: Are her children by Mr. Wesbecker 21 or by someone else? 22 JUROR NO. 34: Yes. By Mr. Wesbecker. 23 JUDGE POTTER: Do you think you have sort of 24 insight into Mr. Wesbecker that the average person doesn't 25 have? 24 1 JUROR NO. 34: No, sir; I do not, because I 2 don't know the individual. 3 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. But I mean from what she's 4 told you, do you think you have an insight or a view of his 5 condition or what prompted him to do this that a person just 6 reading about the incident in general would not have? 7 JUROR NO. 34: I only have my opinions. I don't 8 know anything. I only have my opinions. 9 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. And what are those 10 opinions? 11 JUROR NO. 34: I feel like he was a very 12 disturbed man. I do not know whether it was caused from 13 medication or not, but I feel like it started sometime back, 14 years ago. 15 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. And why do you say that? 16 JUROR NO. 34: Just from the troubles that he's 17 had, you know, in his family. 18 JUDGE POTTER: The things Ms. Chesser's told you 19 about? 20 JUROR NO. 34: Right. Uh-huh. 21 JUDGE POTTER: Is there any particular thing she 22 told you that sticks out in your mind? 23 JUROR NO. 34: I've heard her say he was very 24 domineering. 25 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. And when were he and she 25 1 divorced? 2 JUROR NO. 34: I don't know for sure. It was 3 either -- probably '83 -- '82, '83 or '84. I would say '82 or 4 '83. I'm not for sure. 5 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Does anyone have any 6 questions they want me to ask Ms. Baldwin on this? 7 MR. STOPHER: No, sir. 8 MR. SMITH: As I understand it, Ms. Baldwin was 9 with Ms. Chesser when the call came in concerning the 10 shooting. Was that at the fire department or was that at 11 home, and what was said by Ms. Chesser when the call came? 12 JUROR NO. 34: That was at the fire department. 13 We were on the job. She came to me and told me that she had 14 got a phone call from her son saying that his dad hadn't 15 picked him up to take him to school. And, in fact, he called 16 her two or three times. And she was concerned because someone 17 had told her about the incident and it alarmed her, and it 18 made her apprehensive. And then a call came in and said it 19 was Wesbecker and, of course, she was very shocked, very hurt 20 and concerned, and that was it. 21 JUDGE POTTER: Ma'am, I guess, let's -- let me 22 ask you this: Do you think that you -- one of the issues in 23 this case will be why he did what he did. And do you think 24 because of the things that Ms. Chesser has told you, you don't 25 come into this case kind of open-minded like the rest of the 26 1 people? 2 JUROR NO. 34: That's true. 3 JUDGE POTTER: You've kind of had, rightly or 4 wrongly, an opinion in your mind for, what, five years now, 5 that's kind of maybe sunk in? 6 JUROR NO. 34: That's true. 7 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. And just from the way 8 you're nodding your head and whatnot, I take it that you feel 9 that you'd have a hard time coming to a conclusion differently 10 from that opinion; is that right? 11 JUROR NO. 34: That's true. I feel that way. 12 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Does anybody else have any 13 questions of Ms. Baldwin? 14 MR. FREEMAN: No, sir. 15 JUDGE POTTER: Thank you very much, ma'am. I'm 16 going to remind you of my admonition about talking about the 17 case. If you'll go back in the jury room and wait, then we'll 18 call you all in together again. Okay? Thank you. 19 (JUROR NO. 34 LEAVES THE COURTROOM) 20 JUDGE POTTER: It's Barnes No. 198. Does 21 anybody have any motions? 22 MR. SMITH: We'd move to excuse Ms. Baldwin, 23 Your Honor. 24 JUDGE POTTER: Is there anything you want to 25 say, Mr. Stopher, or Mr. Freeman before I rule on it? 27 1 MR. FREEMAN: No, sir. 2 MR. STOPHER: No, Judge. 3 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. I'm going to excuse her 4 for cause. 5 MR. FREEMAN: Who's next? 6 JUDGE POTTER: I don't know if it's a man or a 7 woman. It's a lady because her spouse is named Clyde. Let me 8 put this over here. 9 (JUROR NO. 198 ENTERS THE COURTROOM) 10 JUDGE POTTER: Good morning. You're Ms. Barnes, 11 No. 198? Ms. Barnes, you said that you felt it would be a 12 hardship if you had to stay here the six or eight weeks; would 13 you tell me why? 14 JUROR NO. 198: Well, we spend the winters in 15 Texas in the Rio Grande Valley; the reason being, my husband 16 has arthritis and the climate is too harsh for him in this 17 area. And since we're retired, we've been going down south 18 every winter. 19 JUDGE POTTER: Do you own a house or you just -- 20 JUROR NO. 198: Yes, we do. 21 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. What time do you normally 22 leave? 23 JUROR NO. 198: We're scheduled to leave -- we 24 have paid reservations for 24 October. 25 JUDGE POTTER: And you're flying, I take it, and 28 1 not driving? 2 JUROR NO. 198: No. We have a motor home. We 3 have an RV. We're winter Texans, so to speak. 4 JUDGE POTTER: And so your reservation is -- 5 what's your reservation? That's what I don't understand. 6 JUROR NO. 198: 29 October. 7 JUDGE POTTER: You reserved the motor home, the 8 motel room on the way? 9 JUROR NO. 198: The RV park. We have a lot in 10 the RV park we pay for. 11 JUDGE POTTER: Yeah. I see. What would it do 12 to you if you had to wait till November 24th? 13 JUROR NO. 198: Well, we probably wouldn't be 14 able to go. Due to inclement weather, we wouldn't be able to 15 use the roads with an RV. 16 JUDGE POTTER: Oh, you mean the weather here 17 would be hard to drive? 18 JUROR NO. 198: Yes. Right. Yes. We'd 19 probably have to stay all winter. 20 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Does anybody else have any 21 questions of Ms. Barnes or more questions they want me to ask 22 Ms. Barnes? 23 MR. FREEMAN: No, sir. 24 JUDGE POTTER: Thank you very much, ma'am. I 25 will remind you about my admonition about not talking to 29 1 anybody. If you'll go back to the jury room, I'll call you 2 all out together in a minute or two. 3 JUROR NO. 198: Thank you. 4 JUDGE POTTER: Thank you. 5 (JUROR NO. 198 LEAVES THE COURTROOM) 6 JUDGE POTTER: What do you-all want to do with 7 her? 8 MR. SMITH: I really don't have any thoughts one 9 way or the other, Your Honor. 10 MR. STOPHER: I don't, either. I don't think it 11 would be a problem. I think we would agree to excuse her. 12 JUDGE POTTER: Is that all right, Mr. Smith? 13 MR. SMITH: That's fine with me if that's what 14 the Court's inclined to do. 15 JUDGE POTTER: No. I'll be frank with you. I 16 don't know if she qualifies as a hardship with what I'd do. 17 Is there any point in bringing in Mr. Bobbie? 18 For those of you from out of town, I can tell you that Mr. 19 Stopher's father was a pillar of the Broadway Baptist Church, 20 but I just think going to the same church is -- 21 MR. STOPHER: I've got to confess, Judge, I 22 think you're exactly right. I mean, I think he should be 23 stricken for cause. 24 JUDGE POTTER: Does anybody have any -- I was 25 going to leave him on. I just think going to the same church 30 1 is not -- well, we'll bring him in. How about Timothy Bobbie, 2 No. 111. Can you-all hear now? 3 PLAINTIFFS GROUP: Yes. 4 (JUROR NO. 111 ENTERS THE COURTROOM) 5 JUDGE POTTER: Hi. You're Mr. Bobbie, No. 111. 6 You want to take a seat, sir? You say you know Mr. Stopher or 7 his -- some of his family members from the Broadway Baptist 8 Church? 9 JUROR NO. 111: Yes, sir. 10 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Is there anything about -- 11 I think somebody in commenting said you were in the choir; is 12 that right? 13 JUROR NO. 111: Yes. 14 JUDGE POTTER: Is there anything about that that 15 would carry over to today that in the sense that if you had to 16 decide against Mr. Stopher's side of the case you might be a 17 little embarrassed the next time you went to church or 18 anything that way? 19 JUROR NO. 111: Broadway's quite a large church, 20 and I don't see him very often except in the congregation, and 21 I don't have the opportunity to see him often as far as... 22 So, I wouldn't think so. At first I kind of thought I would 23 be a little embarrassed. But if I see him on a regular basis 24 I probably would, but I don't think I would, sir. 25 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Now, let me approach it 31 1 from the other side. Do you come into this feeling -- maybe 2 you would feel sort of a trusting relationship to Mr. Stopher 3 when he gets up and says, "This is what I'm going to prove," 4 that you wouldn't feel for Mr. Smith. I'm sure he goes to 5 church, but he goes to a different church. Do you understand 6 what I'm saying? 7 JUROR NO. 111: No. 8 JUDGE POTTER: When Mr. Stopher made his opening 9 statement telling you about what he was going to prove or what 10 the case was all about, you'd be more likely to -- 11 JUROR NO. 111: Side with him? 12 JUDGE POTTER: -- side with him than somebody 13 that didn't go to your church? 14 JUROR NO. 111: No. Like I said, I don't have 15 any one-on-one contact often with them, so I wouldn't think I 16 would. 17 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Does anybody else have any 18 questions they want me to ask of Mr. Bobbie? 19 Okay, sir. I will remind you about my 20 admonition about discussing the case or communicating with 21 anybody about the case, and if you'll go back to the jury 22 room, I'll call you all in in a few minutes. 23 JUROR NO. 111: Thank you. 24 JUDGE POTTER: Thank you, sir. 25 (JUROR NO. 111 LEAVES THE COURTROOM) 32 1 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Bowling, No. 135. 2 MR. SMITH: We make a motion in connection with 3 Mr. Bobbie, Your Honor. Mr. Bobbie indicated that his first 4 impression was that he would give Mr. Stopher's version of 5 this lawsuit more credence. I think that's -- his first 6 impression is probably the most accurate impression in 7 connection with this Witness having a potential bias. We 8 would request that the Court excuse Mr. Bobbie out of an 9 abundance of caution to -- we have a large pool. 10 JUDGE POTTER: Let me just see if there's any 11 objection. 12 MR. STOPHER: There's none, and we're even now. 13 (JUROR NO. 135 ENTERS THE COURTROOM) 14 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. You're Mr. Bowling, No. 15 135. 16 JUROR NO. 135: Yes, sir. 17 JUDGE POTTER: Have a seat, sir. I'll remind 18 you you're still under oath. You indicated that it would be 19 extreme hardship for you to give this case your attention the 20 next six to eight weeks. You want to tell me why? 21 JUROR NO. 135: Yes. My mother has liver cancer 22 and she's doing okay now, but I'm just wondering what it will 23 be like in the future if she should take a turn for the worse. 24 JUDGE POTTER: Is your father still alive? 25 JUROR NO. 135: No, sir. 33 1 JUDGE POTTER: Does your mother live by herself? 2 JUROR NO. 135: No. She lives with my sister. 3 JUDGE POTTER: And so it would -- how often do 4 you visit your mother on the average? 5 JUROR NO. 135: Well, we're trying to set up a 6 schedule because they don't want to leave her alone. I have 7 four brothers, four sisters; we're all trying to rotate and 8 stay with her. 9 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. And what is -- what has 10 been your typical rotation? 11 JUROR NO. 135: It varies because, you know, I 12 have children and whether or not... 13 JUDGE POTTER: And if -- say your mother didn't 14 get -- do you expect her to get worse in the next two months? 15 JUROR NO. 135: I can't say. 16 JUDGE POTTER: I mean, the doctor hasn't told 17 you? 18 JUROR NO. 135: They said she had a few more 19 months to live. 20 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. If your mother didn't get 21 worse and, you know, you obviously have a job, and you treated 22 jury service like a job and did your -- you know, your time 23 with her at night or on the weekends, do you see any reason if 24 she didn't get worse that you couldn't sit as a juror? 25 JUROR NO. 135: No. 34 1 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Thank you very much, sir. 2 I remind you of my admonition about talking about the case, 3 and if you'll go back to the jury room, we'll call you all in 4 in just a minute. 5 JUROR NO. 135: Okay. Thank you. 6 (JUROR NO. 135 LEAVES THE COURTROOM) 7 JUDGE POTTER: I mean, you know, if his mother 8 gets worse, he'll just have to be an alternate. I can't see 9 excusing him at this point for that. 10 MR. FREEMAN: I agree. 11 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Brown, No. 120. 12 MS. ZETTLER: Is that William, Judge? 13 JUDGE POTTER: William Brown, without an E. 14 (JUROR NO. 120 ENTERS THE COURTROOM) 15 JUDGE POTTER: How are you, Mr. Brown? 16 JUROR NO. 120: Pretty good. 17 JUDGE POTTER: Sir, I want to remind you you're 18 still under oath. You mentioned that you know the 19 Seidenfadens? 20 JUROR NO. 120: I know of him, yeah. 21 JUDGE POTTER: How do you know of him? 22 JUROR NO. 120: Church. 23 JUDGE POTTER: What church is that? 24 JUROR NO. 120: Our Lady of Lourdes. 25 JUDGE POTTER: And he attends there and you 35 1 attend there? 2 JUROR NO. 120: Yeah. 3 JUDGE POTTER: And since you used "know of him," 4 do you have any contact with him other than just knowing he's 5 a member of the same congregation? 6 JUROR NO. 120: No. 7 JUDGE POTTER: Is there anything about that that 8 would carry over to today in the sense that you might be a 9 little embarrassed the next time you went to church if you had 10 to decide against his position in this case? 11 JUROR NO. 120: No. 12 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. You also mentioned that 13 you take Prozac; is that right? 14 JUROR NO. 120: Correct. 15 JUDGE POTTER: How long have you been taking it? 16 JUROR NO. 120: About eight months. 17 JUDGE POTTER: Have you had a satisfactory 18 experience with it? 19 JUROR NO. 120: Yeah. 20 JUDGE POTTER: Do you intend to keep taking it 21 or has your doctor told you that this is a short-time thing? 22 JUROR NO. 120: He hasn't said. 23 JUDGE POTTER: What were you taking it for? 24 JUROR NO. 120: Well, I had triple bypass and I 25 had a couple small strokes and I was kind of nervous and 36 1 everything, so that's what I'm taking it for. 2 JUDGE POTTER: So this was prescribed by your 3 regular doctor? 4 JUROR NO. 120: My family doctor; yes, sir. 5 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. What -- you obviously -- 6 from what you've heard me say in the beginning, this case is 7 going to involve, you know, whether or not Prozac is -- was 8 properly marketed and labeled and whatnot. By your own 9 personal experience, do you feel that you kind of have a point 10 of view that you've already made up your mind about that? 11 JUROR NO. 120: Sort of. 12 JUDGE POTTER: Can you elaborate on what "sort 13 of" means? 14 JUROR NO. 120: I mean, it has never bothered me 15 any, but, you know, I don't know what it does to anybody else. 16 JUDGE POTTER: Would you be disappointed if for 17 some reason your doctor said he couldn't prescribe it to you 18 anymore? 19 JUROR NO. 120: No. 20 JUDGE POTTER: Tell me what you feel about 21 Prozac, what your opinion of it is. 22 JUROR NO. 120: I don't really have an opinion 23 of it. I don't have no more opinion of it than I do the other 24 medicines I'm on. 25 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Sir, I'm going to remind 37 1 you of my admonition about talking about the case with 2 anybody, and I'll ask you to go back to the jury room and I'll 3 call you all in again. 4 JUROR NO. 120: I do have one thing to say. 5 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. 6 JUROR NO. 120: I happened to think, I've got a 7 good friend that used to work there. 8 JUDGE POTTER: Who is that? 9 JUROR NO. 120: He doesn't work there now. He 10 works there, but he works out at Riverport, a very good friend 11 of mine. 12 JUDGE POTTER: Was he working there in 1989 when 13 this happened? 14 JUROR NO. 120: Not at that particular plant. 15 JUDGE POTTER: Is there anything -- has he told 16 you anything or -- that you find very significant about this? 17 Have you talked about this with him? Let me ask you that. 18 JUROR NO. 120: Yeah. 19 JUDGE POTTER: Did he tell you anything that you 20 think is significant? 21 JUROR NO. 120: Not really. 22 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. But he was not there in 23 '89 and he now works someplace else; is that right? 24 JUROR NO. 120: He works at the same place, but 25 it's on the other side of River Road or riverfront. 38 1 JUDGE POTTER: Where does he work? 2 JUROR NO. 120: I don't know what you call it 3 now. 4 JUDGE POTTER: Are we talking eastern Jefferson 5 County or are we talking Riverport down in western Jefferson 6 County? 7 JUROR NO. 120: Riverport, western. 8 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. And what does he do? 9 JUROR NO. 120: I don't really know. 10 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Do you think because of 11 what he told you you've made up your mind about this incident 12 in any particular way? 13 JUROR NO. 120: No. I really don't think so. 14 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Sir, I'll remind you of my 15 admonition about talking to other people, and if you'll go 16 back to the jury room I'll call you all out in a group. 17 MR. STOPHER: Before he goes, would you ask him 18 who it is? 19 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Who is it that you know? 20 JUROR NO. 120: Campfield. 21 JUDGE POTTER: And his other -- or, first name? 22 JUROR NO. 120: Thomas. 23 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Thank you very much, sir. 24 MR. SMITH: May I ask you to ask just one other 25 thing? Has Mr. Campfield expressed any judgment concerning 39 1 Mr. Michael Shea or the management at Riverport Imaging? 2 JUROR NO. 120: Not to my knowledge. 3 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Thank you very much, sir. 4 If you'll go back and wait, we'll call you out. 5 (JUROR NO. 120 LEAVES THE COURTROOM) 6 JUDGE POTTER: What I'm going to do on this -- 7 him, I'm just going to let you-all develop it in your 8 individual voir dire. I'm not going to excuse him at this 9 point because he's taking the drug, I'll let you-all develop 10 it. That's why I kind of cut it short. 11 Browne with an E, No. 92. 12 MR. SMITH: Your Honor, can I -- we've just 13 learned some information that I need to bring to the Court's 14 attention. We can go ahead with Mr. Browne but... 15 (JUROR NO. 92 ENTERS THE COURTROOM) 16 JUDGE POTTER: You're Mr. Browne, No. 92? 17 JUROR NO. 92: That's correct, Judge. 18 JUDGE POTTER: How are you? 19 JUROR NO. 92: Just fine. 20 JUDGE POTTER: You indicated that you felt it 21 would be a hardship on you if you had to be a juror in this 22 trial; you want to tell me why? 23 JUROR NO. 92: Well, when I first got the notice 24 there wasn't anything on the horizon that would be a problem, 25 but since then one of our largest customers filed a Chapter 40 1 11. And I have asked the trustee in bankruptcy in Washington 2 D.C. to put us on a committee to serve. Debtor owes us 3 $300,000 and I've got $150,000 worth of merchandise out at 4 Riverport I've got to move out. It's men's shirts, and if he 5 doesn't get it in time for Christmas we've all got problems. 6 I need to serve on that committee if there's any way possible. 7 I faxed the trustee, asked to be appointed to the committee 8 and, since we're the largest creditor, I don't think there's 9 going to be any problem with that. The trustee has agreed to 10 have the first meeting by phone because I told him I was going 11 to be on jury duty for two weeks. To organize the committee 12 we'll have a phone hearing, phone meeting, but then we need to 13 get together and try to reorganize. 14 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. And The Apparel Group is 15 the real name of Enro Shirt? 16 JUROR NO. 92: That's correct. Yes. Other than 17 that, there's no -- everything else I can handle. This was a 18 problem, though, that came up after. 19 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Sir, I'll remind you of my 20 admonition about -- let me ask you this. Is there anyone else 21 with your company that if there was a meeting that they could 22 go in your place? 23 JUROR NO. 92: Not in Washington, no. I haven't 24 taken a vacation in 12 years. Even this is a hardship. I 25 went in at 6:30 this morning and I'm going in to work this 41 1 evening. They can't afford two of me, two credit managers. 2 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. But there are other -- how 3 many vice-presidents are there? Is Enro around the country or 4 this is the main manufacturing part? 5 JUROR NO. 92: This is the main manufacturing. 6 We have a vice-president of production. We have an executive 7 vice-president, chief financial officer, who at the present 8 time is in China. We have a vice-president of customer 9 service. But to get into reorganize -- 10 JUDGE POTTER: And you're represented by lawyers 11 at this proceeding? 12 JUROR NO. 92: Yes. 13 JUDGE POTTER: And your lawyers are in 14 Washington -- or, lawyers are here or in Washington? 15 JUROR NO. 92: New York City. Segal, Summers & 16 Schwartz. 17 JUDGE POTTER: And if you were to serve on this 18 jury, and I don't know how many meetings it would be, but what 19 would happen if your lawyers went and you didn't or another 20 vice-president went in your place? 21 JUROR NO. 92: Well, what you would be missing 22 would be my 30 some-odd years of experience. 23 JUDGE POTTER: Have you participated in other 24 bankruptcy creditor committees? 25 JUROR NO. 92: Dozens of them, yes. 42 1 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. How many times do you 2 anticipate being called out of the city between now and 3 Thanksgiving? 4 JUROR NO. 92: Probably two or three. 5 JUDGE POTTER: On this matter? 6 JUROR NO. 92: On this matter, yes. 7 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Sir, I'll remind you of my 8 admonition about talking about the case and whatnot. If 9 you'll go back in the jury room, we'll call you out and talk 10 to all of you together. Okay? 11 JUROR NO. 92: Okay. 12 JUDGE POTTER: Thank you very much. 13 (JUROR NO. 92 LEAVES THE COURTROOM) 14 JUDGE POTTER: I am not inclined to excuse that 15 person for hardship unless you-all can agree. It's just up to 16 you-all. 17 MR. SMITH: Gosh, Judge. 18 JUDGE POTTER: You probably know more about 19 bankruptcy than I do. If he's represented by a New York law 20 firm, can't he kind of send about any vice-president? 21 MR. SMITH: Sounds to me like he has to be the 22 one that gets them the information and works hand in hand with 23 them. My impression was that it would work a real hardship 24 for his company and for him. Poor guy hasn't taken a vacation 25 in 12 years. It's their largest customer. 43 1 JUDGE POTTER: No. No. No. He said they were 2 the largest creditor of this customer. At least that's what I 3 understood him to say. I take it you-all can't agree on him 4 and you want him off; is that right? 5 MR. SMITH: I would think it would be 6 appropriate to excuse him. Of course, that's within the -- 7 I'm not trying to tell the Court. 8 JUDGE POTTER: I understand. And you-all want 9 him on; is that right? 10 MR. FREEMAN: Yes, sir. 11 JUDGE POTTER: I'm not going to excuse him for 12 hardship. 13 MR. SMITH: Can we bring up another issue, Your 14 Honor? On Mr. William Brown, Ms. Paula Warman, one of our 15 clients, just advised Ms. Nancy Zettler for the plaintiffs 16 that Mr. Brown works at Riverport Imaging with her husband, 17 David Warman. 18 MS. WARMAN: Mr. Campfield works. His friend. 19 MR. SMITH: His friend, Mr. Campfield; is that 20 right? 21 MS. WARMAN: That's correct. 22 MR. SMITH: Had been going around Riverport 23 Imaging -- 24 MS. WARMAN: Just yesterday. 25 MR. SMITH: -- yesterday, telling everybody at 44 1 Riverport Imaging that this lawsuit had no merit. We would at 2 this time, with that additional information, he said he had a 3 good friend in Mr. Campfield. 4 JUDGE POTTER: I tell you what, we've kind of 5 put him off until you-all can interview him personally. 6 MR. FREEMAN: Ask him about it. 7 JUDGE POTTER: We'll take that up when you get 8 him personally. Burks, No. 121. 9 (JUROR NO. 121 ENTERS THE COURTROOM) 10 JUDGE POTTER: Hi. 11 JUROR NO. 121: Hello. 12 JUDGE POTTER: You're Mr. Burks, No. 121? 13 JUROR NO. 121: Yes, sir; I am. 14 JUDGE POTTER: Sir, you indicated that it would 15 be a hardship for you if you had to be on this jury. Would 16 you like to tell me why? 17 JUROR NO. 121: Well, I guess it's a little 18 selfish. I'm a retired military police army colonel, full 19 colonel. I was nominated and selected on the 29th of June to 20 be inducted in the Military Hall of Fame at the university 21 that I attended, on the 21st of October, which is a Friday, 22 and some other halftime activities on the 22nd of October, and 23 my family and I would like to be a part of that. It's 24 probably the first and only time I will be inducted to 25 anything. 45 1 JUDGE POTTER: Anything you wanted to be 2 inducted into? You said you were a full colonel, so I think 3 they got you the first time, didn't they? 4 JUROR NO. 121: Yes, sir. 5 JUDGE POTTER: What school is this so I'll know 6 how far away it is? 7 JUROR NO. 121: It's a small school in Jefferson 8 City, Missouri, called Lincoln. It's historically black. 9 JUDGE POTTER: Flying or driving? 10 JUROR NO. 121: Driving. 11 JUDGE POTTER: What time does it start? 12 JUROR NO. 121: It's at two. We planned to 13 leave Thursday night after my daughter gets out of school 14 around four, drive six or seven hours to make sure we can be 15 there for the next day's activities. 16 JUDGE POTTER: Let me ask you this, sir: 17 Suppose -- they're not going to not induct you if you aren't 18 there, they're just going to -- it won't be quite the 19 ceremony, am I correct on that? You would get your plaque in 20 absentia? 21 JUROR NO. 121: Well, I'm certain; yes, sir. 22 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. What would be the 23 arrangement if you could leave here at noon on Friday and get 24 there, you know, Friday evening and be there all day Saturday? 25 JUROR NO. 121: Well, the induction is on Friday 46 1 at two. 2 JUDGE POTTER: I understand that. 3 JUROR NO. 121: And then the next day are some 4 other activities during homecoming halftime part of the 5 weekend. 6 JUDGE POTTER: Tell me -- okay. But it would be 7 possible for you to let your family go ahead and then you 8 either catch them by plane or they would go with you on Friday 9 and participate in the activities afterwards; am I correct on 10 that? 11 JUROR NO. 121: Well, I hadn't thought through 12 that. 13 JUDGE POTTER: Because I'll just tell you, the 14 plan is here, if you're on this jury we will only try half 15 days on Friday. That will give -- four and a half days will 16 be enough I think we're getting out of the jurors, and some of 17 the lawyers are out of town and that allows them to catch a 18 plane and get home for the weekend. 19 JUROR NO. 121: Kind of thinking through it, it 20 might be a little tight. I would miss a large portion of what 21 I'm concerned about. I know you have other concerns. It's a 22 little selfish, but I don't know, I think I deserve it. 23 That's all I'm saying. 24 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Thank you very much, sir. 25 I'll remind you of my admonition about talking to other 47 1 people, and if you go back to the jury room and I'll call you 2 all out as a group in a minute. Okay. Thank you so much. 3 What does Burks Enterprises do? Just for curiosity, what do 4 you consult on? 5 JUROR NO. 121: Well, my mother owns a nursing 6 agency, it's an umbrella name. And I've been in Louisville 7 about three months, returned here, and my so-called expertise 8 is that I assist her, I'm her gopher, I guess you could say. 9 JUDGE POTTER: Is your mother Juanita Burks? 10 JUROR NO. 121: That's correct. 11 JUDGE POTTER: You -- sit down again, sir. I 12 was reading one-half of my sheet of paper and I didn't look at 13 the other half. You told me that your wife is an RN? 14 JUROR NO. 121: That's correct. 15 JUDGE POTTER: And she has discussed Prozac with 16 you? 17 JUROR NO. 121: She has. 18 JUDGE POTTER: What has she told you about it? 19 JUROR NO. 121: Well, I was just sitting here 20 thinking about it yesterday. I just wasn't quite sure. Her 21 thoughts I don't think were positive kinds of thoughts. I 22 can't say what she said but, you know, she's I guess 23 apprehensive or whatever, I guess is what I would say to 24 characterize her discussion about it. You know, it's one of 25 those things where you're the husband, she says something and 48 1 you say, yeah, okay, whatever. But I just recall the fact 2 that -- of the discussion. 3 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. And was this in any way 4 connected with what happened here in Louisville? 5 JUROR NO. 121: Oh, no. Just general. 6 JUDGE POTTER: Just general? 7 JUROR NO. 121: Uh-huh. 8 JUDGE POTTER: And is she a practicing RN? 9 JUROR NO. 121: Not now. 10 JUDGE POTTER: Where did you move here from? 11 JUROR NO. 121: Well, I retired from the 12 Military Academy at West Point in '93, and then I took a job 13 with a large corporation as a vice-president for internal 14 audit. My family stayed at West Point, I traveled for the 15 year. We moved from West Point here. 16 JUDGE POTTER: Was she practicing nursing when 17 she was in West Point? 18 JUROR NO. 121: At the army hospital, yes. 19 JUDGE POTTER: And so these were just 20 conversations she had while she was a nurse there? 21 JUROR NO. 121: That's correct. 22 JUDGE POTTER: Are there anything about those 23 conversations that you think might carry over to today in the 24 sense that you kind of have a vague negative impression in 25 your mind for a number of years and you might have a hard time 49 1 putting that aside? Do you understand what I'm asking? 2 JUROR NO. 121: I do. You know, she's -- 3 anytime -- in my notes last night that you had us fill out, 4 she's very particular about drugs and the effects of drugs, 5 and, so anytime there's a prescription for anybody in the 6 family it could be a long-distance kind of conversation; 7 they'll call her and say look in the PDQ or PDR, I think is 8 what it is. And she'll go through it and say this is this and 9 that's that and watch this and watch that. So in regards to 10 Prozac I can't say that we've ever had a family discussion 11 about somebody in the family that's on it because I don't 12 think anyone is, that I know of, but she's always talked about 13 the side effects of drugs. I mean, she religiously goes to 14 this PDR, I think it is, if I'm not mistaken. 15 JUDGE POTTER: And so her concern with Prozac is 16 not out of the ordinary because I guess she's concerned about 17 all of them? 18 JUROR NO. 121: I would say that, yes; that's 19 correct. 20 JUDGE POTTER: Again, sir, I remind you about my 21 admonition about talking to other people, and if you'll go 22 back to the jury room I'll call you all back out as a group in 23 a minute. 24 JUROR NO. 121: Yes, sir. 25 JUDGE POTTER: Thank you very much. 50 1 JUROR NO. 121: Yes, sir. 2 (JUROR NO. 121 LEAVES THE COURTROOM) 3 JUDGE POTTER: Does anybody have anything they 4 want to say about Mr. Burks? 5 MR. FREEMAN: No, sir. 6 JUDGE POTTER: How about you, Mr. Smith? 7 MR. SMITH: I don't think he's established 8 hardship. 9 MR. FREEMAN: You don't think what? 10 MR. SMITH: That he's established hardship at 11 all. 12 MR. FREEMAN: I don't, either. 13 JUDGE POTTER: Carrell, No. 216. 14 (JUROR NO. 216 ENTERS THE COURTROOM) 15 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Carrell, would you have a 16 seat here? How are you today, sir? 17 JUROR NO. 216: I'm fine. 18 JUDGE POTTER: I'll remind you you're still 19 under oath. 20 JUROR NO. 216: Uh-huh. 21 JUDGE POTTER: You indicated that -- what is the 22 Marley Cooling Tower? 23 JUROR NO. 216: It's a manufacturing plant. We 24 manufacture industrial cooling equipment. 25 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. You're out on Strawberry 51 1 Lane. And Hall Security provides the watchmen or whatever you 2 have there? 3 JUROR NO. 216: Yeah. They come in at 3:15 4 every day and watch basically the plant until 6:45 in the 5 morning. 6 JUDGE POTTER: And you're on a day shift or 7 you're there at night? 8 JUROR NO. 216: No. I'm in the office day 9 shift. 10 JUDGE POTTER: One of the issues you would be 11 asked to decide in this case or might be asked to decide is 12 what responsibility, if any, Hall Security had because they 13 provided the watchmen -- watchmen we always apply at night but 14 there was a security guard there during the daytime. Is there 15 anything about your relationship with Hall Security that might 16 make it difficult for you to decide that issue? 17 JUROR NO. 216: Just my perception that they're 18 nothing more than they'd call the fire department if our plant 19 was burning or something. I mean, they don't provide security 20 in the sense like a police officer does. 21 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. But do you think you could 22 listen to the evidence about what their role was and what they 23 were supposed to provide at Standard Gravure, what they were 24 not supposed to provide and make up your mind on that evidence 25 rather than what they do at Marley? 52 1 JUROR NO. 216: Yes, sir. 2 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. You say you have a good 3 friend that takes Prozac? 4 JUROR NO. 216: Yes, sir. 5 JUDGE POTTER: Is there anything -- have you had 6 any discussions with him or her about the drug? 7 JUROR NO. 216: No, not really. He's not proud 8 of that fact or anything. It's just not something that comes 9 up a lot. 10 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Do you feel that 11 because -- has your friend had a favorable experience with it? 12 JUROR NO. 216: From my vantage point, I would 13 say so. I can tell. 14 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Do you feel that because 15 you have this personal contact with somebody that's had a 16 favorable experience it would influence you in this case that 17 you would have a hard time separating evidence that there are 18 people that don't have favorable experiences, if that's what 19 the evidence is? 20 JUROR NO. 216: No, not really. I mean, it's in 21 your mind because it's my own personal experience. 22 JUDGE POTTER: You have indicated that it would 23 be a hardship on you to serve on this jury; you want to tell 24 me why? 25 JUROR NO. 216: I'm the purchasing agent at my 53 1 plant and I'm the only one there. And right now, for example, 2 it's kind of like covering for somebody on vacation, but six 3 to eight weeks it would be difficult. We don't have a lot of 4 the staff there. 5 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. How many people in your 6 department? 7 JUROR NO. 216: Just the lady that helps me. 8 JUDGE POTTER: If you were selected to sit on 9 this jury, do you think you could -- I take it you went there 10 last night to check over what went on? 11 JUROR NO. 216: No. I've called in and it's 12 kind of -- I've served on a jury before so I know that every 13 day is a new world, and I might be able to go to work sometime 14 in the next two weeks and I've kind of instructed her what to 15 do, what has to be done. 16 JUDGE POTTER: Do you think you could limp that 17 along for six or eight weeks if you had to? 18 JUROR NO. 216: Well, you got to do what you got 19 to do, I guess. 20 JUDGE POTTER: I saw you smile when I talked 21 about the army. I take it you've been in the army. 22 JUROR NO. 216: No, sir. I appreciate your 23 sense of humor. 24 JUDGE POTTER: That's the only time anybody got 25 a smile out of you, that time. I remind you of my admonition 54 1 about talking about other people -- and let me go back to a -- 2 we're talking about the army. I take it what you're telling 3 me is it would be difficult, but if you had to go eight weeks 4 you could maybe go in a little bit after work or a little 5 early in the morning and the Marley Cooling Tower company 6 could limp along? 7 JUROR NO. 216: Well, my boss would probably 8 throw a fit; I work for the plant manager, but it would be 9 difficult in that I deal with vendors, and typically vendors' 10 hours are eight to five or whatever. You can get computer 11 work done at night, but not a lot of actual purchasing. 12 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. And Marley is part of a 13 bigger company or it's its own company? 14 JUROR NO. 216: We're part of United Dominion 15 and our company's headquarters is in Kansas City. I'm not 16 meaning to present a picture that couldn't happen; I'm just 17 saying my plant manager wouldn't be excited about me being out 18 of work. 19 JUDGE POTTER: Sir, I remind you about my 20 admonition about talking about this case. If you'll go back 21 to the jury room, I'll call you out a little later. Okay? 22 (JUROR NO. 216 LEAVES THE COURTROOM) 23 JUDGE POTTER: Drosity, No. 166. 24 MR. SMITH: We'd move to strike Mr. Carrell 25 based on his experience with his friend's favorable impression 55 1 with Prozac. 2 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. 3 MR. SMITH: This is something I just... 4 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Stopher, what do you say? 5 MR. STOPHER: Judge, I think he said that it 6 will not influence him. 7 JUDGE POTTER: At this point, I'm going to deny 8 the motion to excuse him for cause. 9 MR. SMITH: We would be able to revisit that? 10 JUDGE POTTER: Uh-huh. 11 (JUROR NO. 166 ENTERS THE COURTROOM) 12 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Drosity, 166. 13 JUROR NO. 166: Yes. 14 JUDGE POTTER: You indicated -- I'll remind you 15 you're still under oath. You indicated it would be a hardship 16 if you were to serve on this jury? 17 JUROR NO. 166: My friend Brian works with 18 Wesbecker's son, and Brian -- Wesbecker's sons told Brian some 19 things that he's told me. 20 JUDGE POTTER: And which son are we -- the son's 21 name, do you know? 22 JUROR NO. 166: No. He never mentioned his 23 first name. I know he works at Blockbuster. 24 JUDGE POTTER: The video store? 25 JUROR NO. 166: Yes. 56 1 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. And what's Brian's last 2 name? 3 JUROR NO. 166: Ballard. 4 JUDGE POTTER: What sorts of things has Mr. 5 Ballard told you? 6 JUROR NO. 166: He told me that Mr. Wesbecker 7 was a violent person. 8 JUDGE POTTER: And how -- when did the son, Mr. 9 Ballard connection come about, back in 1989 or just recently? 10 JUROR NO. 166: I would say last year. 11 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Has Mr. Ballard told you a 12 fair amount about the son and the son's father, more 13 importantly? 14 JUROR NO. 166: He said that his father was like 15 a can short of a six pack, pretty much. 16 MR. FREEMAN: A can what? 17 JUDGE POTTER: A can short of a six pack. 18 MR. FREEMAN: Oh. 19 JUROR NO. 166: He said that he was just -- his 20 son pretty much is crazy, too, the way that Brian's talked to 21 me about it. He said they was both alike. 22 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. And so when you indicated 23 that it would be a hardship for you to serve on this jury, you 24 were talking more about you felt you had some special 25 knowledge about it rather than your mother was dying and you 57 1 had to go to the hospital or something? 2 JUROR NO. 166: Well, that, and my Aunt Twyla is 3 on Prozac and it's kind of more or less helped her out. She's 4 not in the depression part; she's more of a more hyper type 5 person and the doctor put her on Prozac, and it's kind of 6 calmed her down a little bit. 7 JUDGE POTTER: How long has she been taking it? 8 JUROR NO. 166: That, I couldn't tell you. 9 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Have you talked to your 10 aunt about her taking Prozac or you just know she's taking it? 11 JUROR NO. 166: No. I just know she's taking 12 it. 13 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. The things that Mr. 14 Ballard -- one of the issues in this case you will be asked to 15 decide is why Mr. Wesbecker did what he did. And do you think 16 that because of what Mr. Ballard's told you you might have a 17 hard time kind of listening to both sides, or do you think 18 you've kind of made up your mind that he did it because he was 19 crazy? 20 JUROR NO. 166: Yeah. I pretty much got it that 21 he was more crazy than what the Prozac would have caused. I 22 think that he was more on the... 23 JUDGE POTTER: And this is because of 24 something -- kind of what Mr. Ballard has told you? 25 JUROR NO. 166: Yeah. Yeah. 58 1 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Drosity, I remind you of my 2 admonition about not letting people talk to you about the 3 case. If you'll go back to the jury room, we'll call you out 4 in a few minutes. Okay? 5 JUROR NO. 166: Okay. 6 JUDGE POTTER: Thank you, sir. 7 (JUROR NO. 166 LEAVES THE COURTROOM) 8 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Smith, do you have any 9 motions you want to make? 10 MR. SMITH: Move to dismiss Mr. Drosity for 11 cause. 12 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Freeman, Mr. Stopher, is 13 there anything you want to say before I rule on that? 14 MR. FREEMAN: No, sir. 15 JUDGE POTTER: We'll excuse him for cause. 16 MR. STOPHER: I'd like to call him as a witness. 17 MR. FREEMAN: I mean, he's absolutely correct. 18 The man's a genius. 19 JUDGE POTTER: Ms. Duncan, and I can't read her 20 number. Tammy Duncan. The Xerox did not pick up her number. 21 MR. SMITH: We have cut off discovery in this 22 case? 23 JUDGE POTTER: Yes. You're going to get a lot 24 of those people. 25 (JUROR NO. 213 ENTERS THE COURTROOM) 59 1 JUDGE POTTER: Hi, Ms. Duncan. You want to step 2 down here and have a seat. And when they Xeroxed this they 3 Xeroxed your number off. What's your number? 4 JUROR NO. 213: 213. 5 JUDGE POTTER: 213. You say you have a friend 6 that's on Prozac? 7 JUROR NO. 213: She was. 8 JUDGE POTTER: Was. Did she stop taking it 9 because of some bad experience or just she didn't -- the 10 doctor didn't feel -- she didn't need it anymore? 11 JUROR NO. 213: I don't know. I don't think 12 she's still taking it anymore. I don't think she is because 13 she's pregnant. 14 JUDGE POTTER: So I take it she hasn't talked to 15 you a lot about it? 16 JUROR NO. 213: I just knew she was on it 17 because I asked her, I said -- she said that she had been in 18 the hospital for depression and they put her on some 19 weird-naming medicine, so... 20 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Is there anything about 21 that, that you think might carry over to today? 22 JUROR NO. 213: No, sir. 23 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Thank you very much, 24 ma'am. I remind you about your admonition about talking to 25 other people. If you'll go back to the jury room, in a few 60 1 minutes I'll call all of you out together. Okay? 2 JUROR NO. 213: Okay. Thank you. 3 (JUROR NO. 213 LEAVES THE COURTROOM) 4 JUDGE POTTER: Flanery, Angela Flanery, No. 13. 5 (JUROR NO. 13 ENTERS THE COURTROOM) 6 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Hi. You're Ms. Flanery? 7 JUROR NO. 13: Yes. 8 JUDGE POTTER: Have a seat. You indicated that 9 you work with Mr. Nold's nephew? 10 JUROR NO. 13: Uh-huh. 11 JUDGE POTTER: Is there anything about that 12 relationship that would carry over to today? If you had to 13 decide against the people he's representing, would you be 14 embarrassed the next time you went to work and had to see his 15 nephew or anything like that? 16 JUROR NO. 13: I might feel a little 17 uncomfortable with it. I mean, I of course wouldn't say 18 anything. I might feel uncomfortable. 19 JUDGE POTTER: Do you think that would influence 20 you here in the sense that if you got back and it was a close 21 call, you might go one way or the other because you just 22 didn't want to have to explain to Mr. Nold's nephew why you 23 did what you did? 24 JUROR NO. 13: No. I wouldn't explain to him 25 anything about it, really. 61 1 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. I guess my question is: 2 You wouldn't have to explain to him but you think knowing him 3 might influence you here, and it's just a question you've got 4 to answer yourself. 5 JUROR NO. 13: It might make me feel a little 6 uncomfortable about the situation. I wouldn't knowingly do 7 anything that I shouldn't, but I may feel uncomfortable about 8 it. 9 JUDGE POTTER: Do you think that feeling of 10 being uncomfortable -- I take it what you're telling me is you 11 don't think you would let that play into your decision, or 12 not? 13 JUROR NO. 13: I would try not to. 14 JUDGE POTTER: How well do you know Mr. Nold -- 15 what's his name? 16 JUROR NO. 13: Bob. Bob Nold. 17 JUDGE POTTER: How well do you know him? 18 JUROR NO. 13: Not very well, just, I mean, I 19 see him every day at work but I really -- I mean, we don't 20 talk a lot. 21 JUDGE POTTER: But he's in the computer 22 department, as I remember it, but in a different cell or a 23 different group; is that fair? 24 JUROR NO. 13: Same department, different group. 25 There is a possibility that we could work together at some 62 1 time, but we don't currently. 2 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Thank you very much, 3 ma'am. 4 JUROR NO. 13: You're welcome. I'll remind you 5 about don't talk to anybody about this case, and if you'll 6 wait a few minutes I'll call you all in in a group. Okay? 7 JUROR NO. 13: All right. 8 (JUROR NO. 13 LEAVES THE COURTROOM) 9 JUDGE POTTER: I'm -- does anybody have any 10 motions they want to make? 11 MR. STOPHER: No, sir. 12 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Okay. How about Mr. 13 Gunnels? Do we need to call him in? He's the one whose 14 company sells to Lilly in Indiana, in Indianapolis, and his 15 wife takes it. 16 MR. SMITH: I think under case law, Your Honor, 17 he probably is by law disqualified. 18 JUDGE POTTER: Do you-all have any objections? 19 See, you-all have the questionnaires they filled out, so some 20 of these people you-all may be able to agree on even though 21 from what I've heard so far might not technically allow me to 22 excuse him over anybody's objection. 23 MR. STOPHER: I don't think we can do it, Judge. 24 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. You want to have Mr. 25 Gunnels, No. 27, come in? 63 1 (JUROR NO. 27 ENTERS THE COURTROOM) 2 JUDGE POTTER: You're Mr. Gunnels, No. 27? 3 JUROR NO. 27: Yes, sir. 4 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Have a seat, sir. I'll 5 remind you you're still under oath. What is a fluid powder? 6 JUROR NO. 27: We're a distributorship for 7 factory automation equipment, cylinders, air cylinders, 8 hydraulic cylinders, air tools, things of that nature. 9 JUDGE POTTER: So you're more selling equipment 10 than whatever a fluid powder is? 11 JUROR NO. 27: Yes, sir. 12 JUDGE POTTER: What is a fluid powder, just out 13 of curiosity? It's something that you used to sell a long 14 time ago? Oh, power. Power. I was reading it wrong. I was 15 putting a D in it; that's why I had trouble with it. 16 JUROR NO. 27: Okay. 17 JUDGE POTTER: Lilly is a -- tell me a little 18 bit about your company. Where is it headquartered? 19 JUROR NO. 27: Originally was headquartered in 20 Dayton, outside of Dayton, and they opened a branch in 21 Indianapolis 20-some-years ago, and from the Indianapolis 22 branch they spread out to Louisville. 23 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. And so you're Ohio, 24 Indianapolis and Louisville are your three offices, or they've 25 got others? 64 1 JUROR NO. 27: Actually, there's an office in 2 West Virginia, also, and Cincinnati. 3 JUDGE POTTER: Do you have any direct contact 4 with Lilly in Indianapolis or you just know they're a customer 5 of yours? 6 JUROR NO. 27: No, sir. I know through our 7 sales figures. 8 JUDGE POTTER: Are they a major customer of 9 yours or just one of many customers? 10 JUROR NO. 27: One of many, but I'm really not 11 sure dollarwise how much. 12 JUDGE POTTER: And whether Lilly buys or doesn't 13 buy from your company, that's in a different department from 14 what you did, I mean, that sales force is not under you? 15 JUROR NO. 27: That's right. 16 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Have you had any contact 17 yourself with the people from Lilly in trying to sell them? 18 JUROR NO. 27: No, sir. 19 JUDGE POTTER: You say your wife takes Prozac? 20 JUROR NO. 27: Yes, sir. 21 JUDGE POTTER: Has she had a favorable 22 experience or unfavorable experience? 23 JUROR NO. 27: She really hasn't had any comment 24 until recently, and she did, you know, say that she was 25 experiencing a little depression or whatever and mentioned 65 1 maybe changing medication, which she's done in the past. 2 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. And this was prescribed 3 for her by a psychiatrist or just a regular doctor? 4 JUROR NO. 27: Psychiatrist. 5 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Has she said anything to 6 you that you think would carry over and influence you when 7 you're trying to decide whether or not Prozac was properly 8 marketed, manufactured and labeled and whatnot? 9 JUROR NO. 27: No, sir. 10 JUDGE POTTER: You said this would be a hardship 11 for you to serve on this jury; you want to tell me why? 12 JUROR NO. 27: Workwise. We have a very small 13 staff in the Louisville office down here and it would just -- 14 it would place a burden on people trying to fill in, I 15 believe. 16 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. How many people do you 17 have in your -- you're just strictly a sales organization? 18 JUROR NO. 27: Yes, sir. 19 JUDGE POTTER: How many people work in the 20 office? 21 JUROR NO. 27: We have four outside salesmen and 22 we have two inside sales. 23 JUDGE POTTER: And that includes you in one of 24 those numbers? 25 JUROR NO. 27: Yes, sir. I'm inside sales. 66 1 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Continue on. 2 JUROR NO. 27: And there are about four other 3 ladies that are general-office-type work. And branch manager. 4 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. What would happen in your 5 office if you didn't -- were away for eight weeks? It would 6 be a hardship, but tell me how they would handle it. 7 JUROR NO. 27: The people that normally, like 8 the branch manager and the office manager, would probably have 9 to fill in on phone work and spend overtime, I'm sure. 10 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Sir, I'll remind you about 11 not talking about this case with anyone, and if you'll go back 12 to the jury room I'll call you all out in a group in a few 13 minutes. Okay? 14 JUROR NO. 27: Okay. 15 JUDGE POTTER: Thank you very much. 16 (JUROR NO. 27 LEAVES THE COURTROOM) 17 JUDGE POTTER: Does anybody have any motions 18 they want to make in regard to Mr. Gunnels? 19 MR. SMITH: We'd move to strike Mr. Gunnels, 20 Your Honor. 21 JUDGE POTTER: On what basis? 22 MR. SMITH: On the basis that he is employed by 23 a company who has a branch in Indianapolis, Indiana, that 24 appears to be directly dependent upon the sales to the 25 Defendant, Lilly. 67 1 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Let me ask you this, Mr. 2 Stopher, do you-all object to excusing Mr. Gunnels? 3 MR. STOPHER: Yes, Judge, we do. 4 JUDGE POTTER: I do not find the fact that his 5 company sells to Lilly to be a reason to excuse him for cause. 6 Is there any other things you want to bring to my attention? 7 First of all, he's not in ownership. It's not his sales. He 8 sells hand tools. 9 MR. SMITH: Well, we also move to strike him on 10 the obvious basis that his wife is currently taking Prozac and 11 has been for some time. 12 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. I'm going to address those 13 issues when you-all go into the -- you're allowed to ask the 14 question. I'll rule after that. That's why I haven't pursued 15 that issue. 16 I've got Mr. Hagan. I've got written down knows 17 IF. What did I mean by that? 18 MR. SMITH: Mr. Foley. 19 JUDGE POTTER: Oh, is there any point in -- is 20 there any point in bringing in Mr. Hagan? 21 MR. FREEMAN: I don't see why. 22 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. 23 MR. STOPHER: Judge, Mr. Hagan also is a -- Mr. 24 Gorman, one of the plaintiffs, is the first cousin to his 25 wife. 68 1 MR. FREEMAN: Oh, I didn't remember that. 2 MR. STOPHER: So if your thought was to go ahead 3 and strike him without bringing him in -- 4 JUDGE POTTER: No. My thought was to leave him 5 without bringing him in. 6 Mr. Hagan, No. 131. 7 (JUROR NO. 131 ENTERS THE COURTROOM) 8 JUDGE POTTER: Hi. You're Mr. Hagan, No. 131. 9 JUROR NO. 131: Yes, Your Honor. 10 JUDGE POTTER: Have a seat, sir. Tell me how 11 you know Mr. Foley. 12 JUROR NO. 131: He was the legal adviser for the 13 Louisville Division of Police some time back. 14 JUDGE POTTER: And did you have any close 15 contact -- and I think you've told me this, I've just 16 forgotten. How close a contact did you have with him in that 17 capacity? 18 JUROR NO. 131: I would go to him to seek legal 19 opinions on a couple of things. I respected his opinion. It 20 was of a professional nature. 21 JUDGE POTTER: When was the last time you had 22 any dealings with him on that basis? 23 JUROR NO. 131: (To Mr. Foley) How long has it 24 been since you were our legal adviser? I think 25 approximately -- yesterday I said 15 years. 69 1 MR. FOLEY: I'm afraid to say it's about 20. 2 JUDGE POTTER: Time flies. 3 JUROR NO. 131: It does. 4 JUDGE POTTER: Is there anything about that 5 situation that you think might carry over to today? If he 6 questions a witness or makes some kind of statement you would 7 give him, you know, more belief than you would a lawyer that 8 you hadn't dealt with? 9 JUROR NO. 131: No, sir; I don't. I respect his 10 opinion very much, as I would any of the attorneys in here, 11 and consider them officers of the court. Also, I understand 12 the adversary system. 13 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. You also said someone is a 14 first cousin to your wife? 15 JUROR NO. 131: Yes, sir; I did. Mr. Gorman. 16 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. And you don't -- but you 17 don't know Mr. Gorman? 18 JUROR NO. 131: Like I said, I think I have met 19 him on three occasions, one being my wedding, probably one the 20 wedding of a niece, and my mother-in-law's funeral. 21 JUDGE POTTER: Do you think -- is your wife 22 close to Mr. Gorman? 23 JUROR NO. 131: They're first cousins, but I 24 don't think they're close. I personally think that my wife 25 probably would not want me to be on this jury, but at the same 70 1 time, if called to be on it I will be on it. 2 JUDGE POTTER: Why do you say your wife wouldn't 3 want you to be on it? Just because it might create problems 4 in the family if you had to decide against Mr. Gorman, or tell 5 me why? 6 JUROR NO. 131: I feel like if I was to decide 7 against someone there could be feelings; yet, I don't feel 8 that that would be the case between the individual because I 9 really do not know the individual. 10 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Does your wife see Mr. 11 Gorman other than at weddings and funerals and whatnot? I 12 mean, for all I know she goes over there and has coffee every 13 day or something. 14 JUROR NO. 131: No. Not to my knowledge, no. 15 JUDGE POTTER: Does she see him when you don't 16 see him? 17 JUROR NO. 131: Not to my knowledge. Like I 18 said, I think I have seen him 3 times in 25 years. 19 JUDGE POTTER: And I take it from what you're 20 saying is that you don't feel that your wife would -- that 21 would influence you here? 22 JUROR NO. 131: No. Definitely not. Again, 23 it's like I said, it's the adversary system and we work in the 24 confines of it and appreciate it. 25 JUDGE POTTER: Twenty-nine years and two months? 71 1 JUROR NO. 131: That's how long with the safety 2 department. I've actually been a sworn police officer 27 3 years in December. 4 JUDGE POTTER: Sir, I remind you of my 5 admonition about talking to other people. If you'll go back 6 to the jury room, I'll call you all out in just a minute. 7 Okay? 8 JUROR NO. 131: Thank you very much, Your Honor. 9 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Thank you. 10 (JUROR NO. 131 LEAVES THE COURTROOM) 11 JUDGE POTTER: Hall, No. 156. 12 MR. STOPHER: Your Honor, we move to strike him 13 for cause on the grounds that his wife would not want him to 14 be on this jury because if he decided against someone it could 15 create some feelings. 16 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Mr. Smith, what do you say 17 about Mr. Hagan? 18 MR. SMITH: We don't oppose defendant's motion 19 to strike Mr. Hagan. 20 (JUROR NO. 156 ENTERS THE COURTROOM) 21 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Hall, would you have a seat 22 here, sir. I'll remind you you're still under oath. You said 23 your brother-in-law worked at Standard Gravure? 24 JUROR NO. 156: Yes, sir. 25 JUDGE POTTER: Do you want to tell me who is 72 1 your brother-in-law? 2 JUROR NO. 156: Charles Ganote. 3 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. And that is the brother -- 4 MR. SMITH: He would be the brother of the 5 plaintiff, the deceased William Ganote. Charles Ganote is 6 William Ganote's brother, who is a party, deceased in this 7 case. 8 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. And he worked there in 9 1989? 10 JUROR NO. 156: Yes, sir. 11 JUDGE POTTER: And I take it this shooting has 12 been a big topic of conversation in your family? 13 JUROR NO. 156: Yes, sir. Every year about this 14 time. 15 JUDGE POTTER: And I take it just from your body 16 language and whatnot, I take it you feel that you're a little 17 close to this case to serve on the jury? 18 JUROR NO. 156: Yes, sir. 19 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Okay. Does anybody else 20 have any questions they want me to ask Mr. Hall? 21 Thank you very much, sir. I'll remind you about 22 talking to other people about this case. If you get back to 23 the jury room, I'll call you all out in just a minute. 24 JUROR NO. 156: Okay. 25 (JUROR NO. 156 LEAVES THE COURTROOM) 73 1 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Stopher, I take it you're 2 making a motion. 3 MR. STOPHER: Yes, Your Honor. 4 JUDGE POTTER: Do you have anything you want to 5 say, Mr. Smith? 6 MR. SMITH: I don't think he's a proper juror in 7 this case. 8 JUDGE POTTER: All right. We've got Hamilton, 9 No. 184. 10 MR. SMITH: Are we getting close to halfway 11 finished maybe for a break? 12 JUDGE POTTER: Yeah. We have 5 more people and 13 then we've gone through our 25. 14 MR. SMITH: Oh, okay. 15 (JUROR NO. 184 ENTERS THE COURTROOM) 16 JUDGE POTTER: Hi. You're Ms. Hamilton? 17 JUROR NO. 184: Yes. 18 JUDGE POTTER: I'll remind you you're still 19 under oath. You indicated that you felt it would be a 20 hardship if you were to serve. 21 JUROR NO. 184: Right. 22 JUDGE POTTER: You want to tell me why? 23 JUROR NO. 184: Well, actually that was before. 24 My son stays with my mother right now. I'm not employed so 25 she's keeping my two-year-old. And I thought I would rather 74 1 raise my hand before I asked her, but she said that would be 2 fine, but I thought that would be a bit hard since he's two. 3 JUDGE POTTER: But you checked with her and 4 she's tougher than you thought she was? 5 JUROR NO. 184: Yeah. A lot tougher than me. 6 MR. STOPHER: Your Honor, there was another 7 matter that you mentioned I'd like for you to question her 8 about that she has been a social worker and had a client on 9 Prozac? 10 JUROR NO. 184: No. That's the girl after me. 11 I think her name is Howard. 12 MR. STOPHER: I'm sorry. My mistake. I do 13 apologize. 14 JUDGE POTTER: I'll remind you about my 15 admonition about talking with other people about this case. 16 If you'll go back to the jury room, I'll call you all back out 17 in just a minute. 18 JUROR NO. 184: That's it? 19 JUDGE POTTER: For right now. 20 JUROR NO. 184: Much better. Thanks. 21 (JUROR NO. 184 LEAVES THE COURTROOM) 22 JUDGE POTTER: Ms. Howard, No. 112. 23 (JUROR NO. 112 ENTERS THE COURTROOM) 24 JUDGE POTTER: Hi. You're Ms. Howard? 25 JUROR NO. 112: Yes, I am. 75 1 JUDGE POTTER: I remind you you're still under 2 oath, ma'am. You indicated that you are a social worker and 3 that you've dealt with Prozac? 4 JUROR NO. 112: Yes. 5 JUDGE POTTER: You want to tell me just quickly 6 what your experience has been in that regard? 7 JUROR NO. 112: Okay. I worked at a mental 8 health center, and I was a case manager and I worked with 9 severely mentally-ill adults, and in that capacity they had 10 psychiatrists that prescribed medication, and Prozac was one 11 of the medications. 12 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. And this was like a year 13 and a half ago? 14 JUROR NO. 112: Yes. 15 JUDGE POTTER: How long did you work there? 16 JUROR NO. 112: About a year. 17 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. So from two and a half 18 years ago to a year and a half ago you worked in a mental 19 health center? 20 JUROR NO. 112: Right. 21 JUDGE POTTER: Which one was it? 22 JUROR NO. 112: Seven Counties. 23 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. And did you form any kind 24 of opinions about Prozac as a result of observing people that 25 had the medicine prescribed for it? 76 1 JUROR NO. 112: No. 2 JUDGE POTTER: Did anybody during that period 3 have what you would consider a very bad experience with 4 Prozac? 5 JUROR NO. 112: No. 6 JUDGE POTTER: Did the doctors or other people 7 in the office ever talk about Prozac in connection with this 8 case or in connection with just Prozac in general? 9 JUROR NO. 112: No. 10 JUDGE POTTER: Does anybody else have any 11 questions? I guess what I'm getting down to asking you is, is 12 there anything that you believed you learned in that capacity 13 or other capacities as a social worker that you think would 14 carry over to today? 15 JUROR NO. 112: No. 16 JUDGE POTTER: Maybe I'm jumping ahead to a 17 question, but Mr. Smith just pointed out to me that in your 18 questionnaire you said that you did not believe Prozac played 19 a part in what Mr. Wesbecker did? 20 JUROR NO. 112: Uh-huh. 21 JUDGE POTTER: Why do you have that opinion? 22 JUROR NO. 112: Just from my experience with 23 psychotropic drugs. 24 JUDGE POTTER: Is it something you -- well, I 25 guess that will be one of the issues in this case and I'll 77 1 just ask you, do you think that, you know, you've formed that 2 opinion on the basis of some beliefs that would make it hard 3 for you to come to a different conclusion in this lawsuit? 4 JUROR NO. 112: No. 5 JUDGE POTTER: Well, I said make it difficult. 6 Do you think you could easily come to a different conclusion 7 if the proof were there? 8 JUROR NO. 112: Yes. 9 JUDGE POTTER: And this is just a feeling you've 10 had based on your experience, or is it based on some 11 thought-out kind of process or what somebody's told you? 12 JUROR NO. 112: Just based on my experience. 13 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Ms. Howard, I remind you 14 of my admonition about talking about the case, and I'll call 15 you all out in just a -- 16 MR. STOPHER: Your Honor, there may be some 17 testimony in this case by some other social workers, 18 particularly some that worked at Seven Counties. And I'd be 19 interested in the Court asking her if she knows personnel who 20 dealt with Standard Gravure and its employees, particularly 21 after the shootings occurred, and other social workers that 22 may have been involved with Mr. Wesbecker. 23 JUDGE POTTER: I won't rephrase the question, 24 but... 25 JUROR NO. 112: I think I know one social worker 78 1 that worked on the case. 2 JUDGE POTTER: And this would be counseling 3 Standard Gravure's employees after the shooting? 4 JUROR NO. 112: Right. Uh-huh. 5 JUDGE POTTER: Who was that? 6 JUROR NO. 112: His name was Ike Conley. 7 JUDGE POTTER: Did he ever talk with you about 8 the case and his work with the employees at Standard Gravure? 9 JUROR NO. 112: No. 10 JUDGE POTTER: Thank you very much, ma'am. I'll 11 remind you of my admonition, and if you'll go back to the jury 12 room we'll call you all out in just a second. 13 JUROR NO. 112: Okay. 14 (JUROR NO. 112 LEAVES THE COURTROOM) 15 MR. SMITH: Move to strike Ms. Howard. 16 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Stopher, is there any 17 objection to the motion to strike Ms. Howard? 18 MR. STOPHER: Yes, Judge. I don't think she 19 indicated that she had her mind made up; I think she indicated 20 just the contrary. I think we're getting ahead of ourselves. 21 JUDGE POTTER: Yeah. We'll take that up when we 22 get into the -- we'll take that up when we get her 23 individually. You did get off track. 24 Ruby Jeanette, No. 116. 25 SHERIFF CECIL: Judge, Mr. Irwin had wanted to 79 1 speak with you, No. 101, Thomas Irwin. 2 MR. MYERS: He indicated his daughter had taken 3 Prozac, Judge. 4 MR. STOPHER: Judge, can we take a short break? 5 JUDGE POTTER: Can we hang in another ten 6 minutes? 7 MR. STOPHER: Okay. Sure. 8 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Somehow I didn't write 9 that down. 10 MR. STOPHER: Yes, sir. He said on occasion. 11 (JUROR NO. 101 ENTERS THE COURTROOM) 12 JUDGE POTTER: You're Mr. Irwin, No. 101? 13 JUROR NO. 101: Yes, Your Honor. 14 JUDGE POTTER: Would you have a seat, sir. And 15 I'll remind you you're still under oath. You mentioned that a 16 family member has taken Prozac? 17 JUROR NO. 101: Yes, sir. 18 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. You want to tell me about 19 that? 20 JUROR NO. 101: Well, my daughter -- on the 21 statement that I made I said '93. I understand it was January 22 '94 when she started taking Prozac. 23 JUDGE POTTER: And she's currently taking it? 24 JUROR NO. 101: Taking it, right. She's a 25 nurse. 80 1 JUDGE POTTER: Has she had what you consider a 2 favorable outcome or result? 3 JUROR NO. 101: Yes. It's improved her 4 considerably. 5 MR. FREEMAN: What did you say, sir? 6 JUROR NO. 101: I say it has improved her 7 considerably. 8 JUDGE POTTER: Does she live with you? 9 JUROR NO. 101: No. She's married. 10 JUDGE POTTER: But she lives here in Louisville? 11 JUROR NO. 101: Yes. 12 JUDGE POTTER: And you see her on a regular 13 basis? 14 JUROR NO. 101: Yes. 15 JUDGE POTTER: Have you talked to her about the 16 drug? 17 JUROR NO. 101: No, I really -- I really 18 haven't. I know my wife has, but I have not discussed it much 19 with her, to be honest with you. I must add one other thing 20 because I didn't think about it. My wife is administrator of 21 the C. P. Moorman Home for Women. I put that on my 22 application. As administrator of the home, she has had many 23 of her people on Prozac. 24 JUDGE POTTER: Has she come home and talked to 25 you about them -- 81 1 JUROR NO. 101: No. She's not talked to me 2 about the Prozac, but she reminded me last night that she's 3 had people on Prozac, and I hadn't thought about that. 4 JUDGE POTTER: But she hasn't talked to you 5 about, gee, it's helping or causing problem? 6 JUROR NO. 101: She has made comments to me to 7 the effect that she doesn't think Prozac is a dangerous drug. 8 I will say that. 9 JUDGE POTTER: But these were just comments in 10 response to what? 11 JUROR NO. 101: Well, just general comments if 12 she read an article or something like that in the paper. 13 JUDGE POTTER: Sir, do you -- one of the issues 14 in this lawsuit will be whether or not Prozac has been 15 properly marketed and labeled and whatnot. Do you think that 16 you would have a difficult time separating testimony contrary 17 to what your wife has been telling you over the years? 18 JUROR NO. 101: Well, I would try to be 19 impartial, but I'm afraid it would affect me, I mean, to be 20 honest with you. 21 JUDGE POTTER: You're under oath, sir, that's 22 what we play for. It always scares me when people say "to 23 tell you the truth" because I always think what have they been 24 telling me up to then. 25 JUROR NO. 101: I think it would affect me. It 82 1 would have to take some strong evidence to convince me 2 otherwise. 3 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Mr. Irwin, I'm going to 4 remind you about my admonition about talking about the case to 5 other people. I'm going to ask you to go back to the jury 6 room, and we'll call all of you out in just a minute. 7 JUROR NO. 101: Okay. Thank you. 8 JUDGE POTTER: Thank you, sir. 9 (JUROR NO. 101 LEAVES THE COURTROOM) 10 MR. SMITH: Move to strike Mr. Irwin. 11 JUDGE POTTER: Is there anything you want to 12 say, Mr. Freeman, before we rule on it? 13 MR. FREEMAN: No, sir. 14 JUDGE POTTER: I'm going to grant the motion. 15 Ruby Jennette. Can we bring them all out and 16 let me excuse them and send them away, and then we'll take a 17 break. 18 MR. FREEMAN: Are we through with them, Judge? 19 JUDGE POTTER: This will get us through our 20 first 25. 21 MR. FREEMAN: Yeah. That's fine. 22 (JUROR NO. 116 ENTERS THE COURTROOM) 23 JUDGE POTTER: Hi. Ms. Jennette, do you want to 24 have a seat. You indicated that you -- maybe I'm 25 paraphrasing -- vaguely knew a lady that was injured at the 83 1 Standard Gravure shooting? 2 JUROR NO. 116: Yes. 3 JUDGE POTTER: Who was that? 4 JUROR NO. 116: Her last name was Miller, I 5 believe. I do not remember her first name. I only met her a 6 couple of times. She came to church with her mother, and her 7 mother I knew very vaguely, too, because she was sort of a 8 loner, like, and I haven't gone to church there for a year and 9 a half. 10 JUDGE POTTER: Do you know her mother's name? 11 JUROR NO. 116: Lucia Bookout. 12 JUDGE POTTER: Is that related to any of your -- 13 is there anything about that that might carry you over to 14 today? 15 MR. STOPHER: Would you ask her if the lady's 16 name was Jackie Miller? 17 JUROR NO. 116: Jackie Miller. That's what it 18 was. I just couldn't remember her first name. 19 JUDGE POTTER: Thank you very much, ma'am. if 20 you want to go back to the jury room, I'll call you all out in 21 a second. 22 JUROR NO. 116: Okay. 23 (JUROR NO. 116 LEAVES THE COURTROOM) 24 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. You want to bring them all 25 out? 84 1 MR. SMITH: Oh, the other 25 are back at the -- 2 JUDGE POTTER: Yeah. They're back at the other 3 place. I'm going to excuse a few. When do you think we want 4 these people to come back for their individual? Well, we've 5 got a bunch of people coming back at one. I know this is 6 going slower than I wanted, but if we have these people come 7 back at 9:00 in the morning? 8 MR. FREEMAN: Yes, sir. 9 JUDGE POTTER: That way, what I hope to do is 10 finish my part of this thing, take a lunch break, and start 11 the individual voir dire and, quite frankly, I don't think 12 we'll get through all of it today, so have these people come 13 in tomorrow morning. 14 MR. STOPHER: Yes, sir. 15 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. 16 MR. SMITH: Your Honor, I believe there were a 17 couple of people that weren't introduced that may be jury 18 analysts for Lilly. 19 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Go ahead and be seated. 20 We'll have an opportunity -- we'll get everybody together at 21 the end if anybody needs to be introduced. 22 Ladies and gentlemen, I'm going to excuse 23 certain of you and I'm going to ask you to stand up when I 24 call your name so I can match up the number of people who 25 stand up with the number of people who I'm reading out to make 85 1 sure I've got you all. Ms. Mary Baldwin. Okay. Ms. Renate 2 Barnes. Will you just remain standing, Ms. Baldwin? How 3 about Timothy Bobbie? If you-all will keep standing up so I 4 can make sure I've got everybody. Jeffrey Drosity. Gary 5 Hagan. Lewis Hall. And Thomas Irwin. Okay. I'm going to 6 excuse you all. If you'll check back with the jury pool and 7 let them know you've been excused, they'll either find you 8 another trial or send you home. And tomorrow call that number 9 on your jury badge and they'll let you know whether to come in 10 tomorrow or not. Thank you-all very much. You-all are 11 excused. 12 Okay. Ladies and gentlemen, what I'm going to 13 do for the rest of you-all is take a recess till 9:00 tomorrow 14 morning. It takes time to go through and talk to jurors 15 individually and we'll be dealing with some other people, and 16 our best estimate is that we won't need you-all till 9:00 17 tomorrow morning. So, wait just a second. Let me tell you 18 where to come. Come to the jury pool over in the other 19 building and they'll bring you over if they need you, when 20 they need you. 21 Okay. And I'm going to give you the same 22 admonition I've given you before. Do not permit anybody to 23 speak to or communicate with you on any topic connected with 24 the trial. Any attempt to do so should be reported to me. I 25 emphasize again that that applies to family members or friends 86 1 who are curious about what's going on, as well as people who 2 are attempting to communicate with you by newspaper or TV or 3 whatever. Do not discuss the case among yourselves or form or 4 express opinions about it until it's formally submitted for 5 your-all's determination. As far as you-all are concerned 6 we'll stand in recess till 9:00 tomorrow morning. Why don't 7 we take a 15-minute recess and I'll have them get the other 25 8 over here at 11:30. 9 (RECESS) 10 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Smith, Mr. Freeman indicated 11 there was something he wanted to take up. 12 MR. FREEMAN: Your Honor, I wanted to take up 13 the proposition of Mr. Smith attempting to introduce the two 14 gentlemen seated in the jury box. The only reason he could 15 possibly want to do that is to prejudice the jurors against 16 the defendant, Eli Lilly and Company, and trying to indicate 17 to the jury that Lilly had great financial resources, when 18 they were actually hired by me to engage a firm to help us in 19 connection with the jury. I contend that it is my work 20 product; that they are employed directly by my law firm, and 21 they have given me advice and confidential advice about the 22 types of jurors I need. And this grandstanding -- 23 grandstanding is totally inappropriate. 24 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Smith, he's right, isn't he? 25 MR. SMITH: Well, I would point out that we 87 1 introduced our legal assistants who are giving us professional 2 advice and assistance and are employed directly by me. 3 JUDGE POTTER: But it's my understanding that 4 these gentlemen are not going to come to you at counsel table 5 and they're going to deal with you at night or whatever. 6 MR. FREEMAN: That's correct, Judge. 7 JUDGE POTTER: The reason your legal assistants 8 were introduced is because they're somebody that's going to 9 come to your table and the jury will say that person is 10 associated with your side. The legal assistants were really 11 done just to round out everybody that was here. 12 I do think it is inappropriate to tell the jury 13 in effect that Lilly has hired a consultant to advise them on 14 picking a jury. So I -- what's done is done with one group, 15 and so I'm entering an order that they not be introduced to 16 anybody else. 17 MR. SMITH: I hate it when I can't grandstand. 18 JUDGE POTTER: Well, the real reason Lilly is 19 objecting is because of the O. J. Simpson trial. You don't 20 have the first best people; they're all out there. And the 21 jury will have their feelings hurt that they're being looked 22 over by a second-string group; right? 23 As soon as my sheriff -- let me bring up one 24 other thing. The jury pool informed my sheriff that Mr. 25 Mitchell -- he was in the first day's group, he's 218 -- was 88 1 very pale, was getting faint, and obviously he's elderly. 2 He's 79 or something like that. 3 MR. FREEMAN: He was the guy that was hard of 4 hearing, wasn't he? 5 MR. MYERS: No, that was a different guy. 6 JUDGE POTTER: And I have sent him, allowed him 7 to leave to go get medical treatment. I just wanted to advise 8 you-all of that. I have not excused him. 9 MR. FREEMAN: Let's go ahead and excuse him. 10 JUDGE POTTER: Do you know enough about him, Mr. 11 Smith, to excuse him? 12 MR. SMITH: I have no objection to excusing him 13 if he's ill, Your Honor. 14 JUDGE POTTER: All I know is the jury panel told 15 me he was ill, feeling faint, and I told him he could go see a 16 doctor. So I can tell him at lunchtime that he's been 17 excused. 18 MR. SMITH: Your Honor, apparently my clients 19 are having a difficult time hearing. 20 JUDGE POTTER: This didn't cure the problem? 21 Can you hear everybody all right now? 22 PLAINTIFFS GROUP: Yes. 23 MR. SMITH: That is better. 24 JUDGE POTTER: Let's get another one for the 25 other side for the Witness. 89 1 Let's go back. We're in -- the second half of 2 the third row will start us with Mr. Kopp. 3 Marsha, we want to start with Lawrence Kopp, No. 4 127. 5 SHERIFF CECIL: Your Honor, two jurors from this 6 group are not here; one called in sick and one did not show at 7 all today. 8 JUDGE POTTER: Who are they? 9 SHERIFF CECIL: No. 214 called in sick and 172 10 did not show. 11 JUDGE POTTER: All right. 214 is Agnes 12 O'Reilly. 13 MR. SMITH: She did not show? 14 SHERIFF CECIL: No. 214 called in sick, and 172 15 just did not report in at all today. 16 MR. STOPHER: Anybody know the names of those 17 two? 18 SHERIFF CECIL: O'Reilly. And is the second one 19 Miller? And the jury pool wanted me to ask you as far as Mr. 20 Mitchell is concerned, he's from our first group, he is 80 21 years old and he needs to be excused completely from jury 22 duty. They wanted me to walk him over so that you-all could 23 see him, but he's in bad shape. He needs to be in the 24 hospital. 25 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Well, somebody called over 90 1 and the attorneys have agreed, so the next time you go back 2 there you can tell them he's excused. 3 SHERIFF CECIL: Okay. So now you need? 4 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Lawrence Kopp. 5 (JUROR NO. 127 ENTERS THE COURTROOM) 6 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Kopp, do you want to have a 7 seat here, sir. You indicated that it would be a hardship for 8 you to serve on the jury; you want to tell me why? 9 A. Yes, sir. I work for Louisville Gas & Electric, 10 and I'm in the process of filing a grievance against the 11 company over a job issue and it will probably come up in about 12 another three weeks, plus the job I'm on now has three of us 13 working on the job, and it's a hardship for two men. 14 JUDGE POTTER: What is the job? 15 JUROR NO. 127: It's in the receiving department 16 at the LG&E Building at Third and Chestnut -- excuse me -- 17 Third and Main. 18 JUDGE POTTER: Why is your grievance going to -- 19 you've already filed it and you've got a hearing, or you plan 20 to file it? 21 JUROR NO. 127: Our union president says it's 22 supposed to come up in another three or four weeks. 23 JUDGE POTTER: You've already signed the paper? 24 JUROR NO. 127: I haven't signed anything. It's 25 verbal. 91 1 JUDGE POTTER: And -- 2 JUROR NO. 127: The grievance is over a job 3 issue. Could cause me -- I could get a raise out of it if it 4 goes through. 5 JUDGE POTTER: But the two men in the receiving 6 department, if you're not there, they work overtime or get 7 somebody else to fill in for you? 8 JUROR NO. 127: They can do the job, but it's 9 just a hardship with two men. I mean, the main thing is the 10 grievance. 11 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Thank you very much, sir. 12 I remind you of the admonition about not talking to anybody. 13 If you'll wait in the jury room, after I talk to the other 14 people I'll bring you all back in. Okay? 15 JUROR NO. 127: Yes, sir. 16 JUDGE POTTER: Thank you. 17 (JUROR NO. 127 LEAVES THE COURTROOM) 18 JUDGE POTTER: Ms. Lampkins, No. 31. 19 I'm not going to excuse him for hardship. 20 (JUROR NO. 31 ENTERS THE COURTROOM) 21 JUDGE POTTER: Hi, Ms. Lampkins. Would you have 22 a seat here, please. Okay. You indicated that it would be a 23 hardship for you to serve on this jury; you want to tell me 24 about that? 25 JUROR NO. 31: Well, for one reason, I would 92 1 think due to certain confidentiality -- of course, this is 2 confidentiality, too -- with the hospital work and also due to 3 some medical reasons that I have some doctors' appointments. 4 JUDGE POTTER: What are your medical reasons? 5 JUROR NO. 31: I have glaucoma, and I've already 6 been ordered for some more tests three months ago, will be the 7 18th of October, through Doctor Koby. 8 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. And you were a unit 9 secretary at Our Lady of Peace when Mr. Wesbecker was a 10 patient there; is that right? 11 JUROR NO. 31: Uh-huh. 12 JUDGE POTTER: And I take it in this capacity 13 you saw him or you just had access to his chart? 14 JUROR NO. 31: No. Just like taking off 15 doctors' orders. Only time I had access to him was if he 16 would come to the desk or maybe ask had his doctor been there 17 or if he would want a razor or shaving cream or something like 18 that. 19 JUDGE POTTER: When was this? 20 JUROR NO. 31: I think it was like a year or two 21 years before all this happened. 22 JUDGE POTTER: How long was he hospitalized? 23 JUROR NO. 31: To my knowledge, now, it wasn't 24 very long. 25 JUDGE POTTER: And I take it that after this 93 1 happened -- I mean, he was not an unusual patient when he was 2 there? 3 JUROR NO. 31: No. 4 JUDGE POTTER: But after this happened I assume 5 everybody thought back on it and he became a very unusual 6 patient? 7 JUROR NO. 31: I don't know. 8 JUDGE POTTER: No. I mean, did you-all talk 9 about him after -- 10 JUROR NO. 31: No. 11 JUDGE POTTER: -- after this happened? 12 JUROR NO. 31: No. No. Not in my situation we 13 didn't, because we're not allowed to. 14 JUDGE POTTER: I was just thinking, you know, 15 not that it would be confidential stuff but it would just be 16 that you obviously talked about Standard Gravure, maybe in 17 general about it, and I thought people would say, "You know 18 Mr. Wesbecker was here a couple years ago?" 19 "Yeah, I remember him." He was the tall 20 gentleman, the short gentleman, that kind of conversation. 21 JUROR NO. 31: No, not really. 22 JUDGE POTTER: Did you form any opinion when he 23 was there about his condition or what was -- what his 24 situation was? 25 JUROR NO. 31: No. 94 1 JUDGE POTTER: Have you since then formed an 2 opinion about what his situation was? 3 JUROR NO. 31: No. I really haven't. 4 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. One of the issues that 5 might be asked of you to decide in this case is what caused 6 him to do what he did. Do you -- can you think of anything 7 you've learned out at Our Lady of Peace Hospital that will 8 carry over into this trial? 9 JUROR NO. 31: No. 10 JUDGE POTTER: If you had to have -- you're 11 scheduled for tests or actually some kind of treatment on the 12 18th? 13 JUROR NO. 31: I'm sorry? 14 JUDGE POTTER: You're scheduled for tests or 15 some kind of actual treatment on the 18th? 16 JUROR NO. 31: Yes. I have to have -- like, 17 going to the back of the eye, and this is what I have to have, 18 plus glaucoma tests. And it generally takes -- if I get there 19 at nine -- I leave at eight; I have to be out to his office by 20 nine o'clock, and it's over -- I get home around four-thirty. 21 JUDGE POTTER: So this is something you do 22 periodically? 23 JUROR NO. 31: Oh, yeah. I have to. I've had 24 glaucoma since they found it in the early '50s. 25 JUDGE POTTER: How long do you go for this 95 1 series of exams or tests? 2 JUROR NO. 31: For a while there I was going 3 like every Saturday. And I was there on July the 16th and 4 that's when he scheduled me for this. 5 JUDGE POTTER: Is October the 18th a Saturday? 6 JUROR NO. 31: No. October the 18th is on a -- 7 it's a weekday, I believe, because I had to ask to get it off 8 at work. 9 JUDGE POTTER: Would it be a hardship or do you 10 think your doctor would accommodate you if you asked him to 11 move it a few days one way or the other and do it on a 12 Saturday? 13 JUROR NO. 31: He can't do it on a Saturday 14 because the people that does this kind of testing thing is 15 only there Monday through Friday. 16 JUDGE POTTER: How often were you going, now? 17 JUROR NO. 31: I was there -- like I say, I was 18 going every Saturday. I'm using drops now every night. The 19 drops have been, you know, cut, and so he's doing this now to 20 see how much more damage that I might have in my sight. 21 JUDGE POTTER: When was the last time that you 22 saw him? You say in June? 23 JUROR NO. 31: I saw him the 16th of July. 24 JUDGE POTTER: Do you feel it would hurt your 25 medical condition if you put this off to seeing him until the 96 1 first part of December? 2 JUROR NO. 31: Oh, yes. Yes, because I haven't 3 had this done. And this is generally done like -- well, he 4 can call it sooner if he wants to, but, like I said, this is 5 done like on a three-months basis. That would put me that 6 much further back. 7 JUDGE POTTER: Ms. Lampkins, I'm going to remind 8 you my instructions about not talking about the case and ask 9 you to go back to the jury room and I'll call you all out 10 together in a few minutes. Thank you, ma'am. 11 JUROR NO. 31: Uh-huh. You're welcome. 12 (JUROR NO. 31 LEAVES THE COURTROOM) 13 JUDGE POTTER: Is there any problem with 14 excusing her for hardship? 15 MR. SMITH: It's fine with me, Your Honor. 16 MR. STOPHER: I hope that she can reschedule it 17 for that Friday of Breeders' Cup, perhaps we're not going to 18 work, or it would be a Friday between now and then. I think 19 we're going to be stopping on Friday at noon or thereabout. 20 JUDGE POTTER: Well, okay. Does anybody have 21 anything they want to say about any other reason she ought to 22 be excused? 23 MR. SMITH: I think if I understood correctly 24 she had seen Mr. Wesbecker's chart and observed him while he 25 was on the unit, as I understood it, and she has extraordinary 97 1 personal knowledge that would make it inappropriate for her to 2 sit on the jury. 3 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Stopher? 4 MR. STOPHER: Judge, I understood her to say 5 that he was not hospitalized very long and she has absolutely 6 no opinions about him; that she does recall that she saw the 7 chart but didn't learn anything from that chart that she'd 8 carry over to this trial. The entire chart will be an 9 exhibit, so it doesn't appear to me that she has any knowledge 10 that anybody else isn't going to have after the first day of 11 the trial. She said she just has absolutely no opinions about 12 this case at all. 13 MR. SMITH: She has knowledge. Why have a juror 14 that might have some knowledge concerning the facts? 15 JUDGE POTTER: Well, all the jurors have some 16 knowledge concerning the facts. 17 MR. SMITH: Not personal knowledge, firsthand 18 knowledge, like this lady apparently has. 19 MR. STOPHER: I think she was asked if there was 20 anything unusual or different about him that stuck in her mind 21 and she said that the only time she thought she ever saw him 22 was when he came out to the desk to ask for a razor and some 23 shaving cream and, as far as she knew, he wasn't any different 24 than anybody else there. 25 JUDGE POTTER: I'm going to excuse her, and it 98 1 will be a very close call on the hardship. I would probably 2 excuse her on that alone, but I think we have to treat Mr. 3 Wesbecker as if he were a defendant in this case, and here is 4 a person that is observed at a time when he is being treated 5 for something that will be an issue here. 6 Judy Lanham, No. 37. 7 (JUROR NO. 37 ENTERS THE COURTROOM) 8 JUDGE POTTER: Ms. Lanham, would you have a 9 seat, please, ma'am, and I'll remind you you're still under 10 oath. 11 You indicated that it would be a hardship on you 12 if you were asked to serve on this jury; you want to tell me 13 about it? 14 JUROR NO. 37: I was released from Brown & 15 Williamson February the 9th and, since then, I have been 16 unemployed looking for a job. Every place I've looked I've 17 been overqualified, or the ones that I tried to get did not 18 pay enough for me to live on, and so I'm on unemployment. And 19 I'm supposed to report to the unemployment office in order to 20 get my checks. 21 JUDGE POTTER: When does it run out? 22 JUROR NO. 37: It runs out the end of October. 23 Right now I have a prospect of a job that is pending on a 24 contract that an advertising agency is getting, and if they 25 get this contract, they have told me that they are creating a 99 1 job that they would like for me to have. I've already had two 2 interviews with the president, and October the 3rd I'm 3 supposed to call them and find out if the contract has gone 4 through and, if so, I could get the job, but if I'm on jury 5 trial I'm sure I won't. They are aware that I'm on jury duty 6 this week and next week, and that's why I went on and didn't 7 try to defer jury duty and just, you know, and to get it over 8 with now before I -- you know, it got any farther into winter 9 and I was off of unemployment. 10 JUDGE POTTER: What did you do for Brown & 11 Williamson? 12 JUROR NO. 37: I was senior secretary in the 13 marketing and advertising department and at one time I was 14 executive secretary to a vice-president there. They've 15 downsized. 16 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Thank you very much, 17 ma'am. I'll remind you of my admonition about letting other 18 people talk to you about this case. If you'll go back to the 19 jury room, we'll call you all out in just a second. 20 (JUROR NO. 37 LEAVES THE COURTROOM) 21 JUDGE POTTER: Anybody have anything they want 22 to say about Ms. Lanham? 23 MR. FREEMAN: I don't have any objection. 24 MR. STOPHER: Judge, I just noticed her crying 25 on her way out. If it's going to mean her missing a job... 100 1 JUDGE POTTER: Let's see what Mr. Smith says. 2 MR. SMITH: No objection. 3 JUDGE POTTER: My assessment, it may not show up 4 on the record, but she was obviously the most upset person 5 we've had so far about being put on jury duty and the most 6 fearful. 7 David Mader, No. 179. 8 MR. STOPHER: Your Honor, did we miss the woman 9 that knows Carl through politics, Joan Laurie? 10 JUDGE POTTER: I didn't write that down. We'll 11 come back and hit her. 12 MR. SMITH: What's that, Your Honor? 13 JUDGE POTTER: We skipped over one. I thought I 14 had asked her enough in public to where she said that wasn't 15 going to -- 16 MR. STOPHER: I can't remember. I just made a 17 note and... 18 (JUROR NO. 179 ENTERS THE COURTROOM) 19 JUDGE POTTER: How are you, Mr. Mader? 20 JUROR NO. 179: Fine. How are you? 21 JUDGE POTTER: You want to have a seat, sir. 22 I'll remind you you're still under oath. You indicated that 23 if you were selected to sit on this jury it would be a 24 hardship for you; do you want to tell me why? 25 JUROR NO. 179: Well, when I first got my 101 1 summons it said it would be over around the 10th of October. 2 And the wife and I haven't had a vacation since -- for three 3 years, and we had planned on a visit to Arizona to my sister. 4 JUDGE POTTER: How long were you going to be 5 gone? 6 JUROR NO. 179: Probably two weeks. 7 JUDGE POTTER: And are you driving? 8 JUROR NO. 179: Yes, sir. 9 JUDGE POTTER: I notice here it says you're 10 retired. Is there any particular reason you couldn't do it in 11 December as opposed to October? 12 JUROR NO. 179: Only the weather. 13 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. And what you're talking 14 about is the weather driving out there from here; is that what 15 you're talking about? 16 JUROR NO. 179: And there. She lives in the 17 mountains. 18 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. I visualize Arizona as low 19 and hot. 20 JUROR NO. 179: Not all of it. 21 JUDGE POTTER: No. You've got Flagstaff and all 22 that. I tend to forget about that. But she lives on a main 23 road and all that? 24 JUROR NO. 179: No. It's a small town in the 25 mountains, it's Yarnell. It's about 90 miles north of 102 1 Phoenix. 2 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. So other than problems 3 that might be created by the weather in driving out there, you 4 could go two months later. You would prefer to go now, but, I 5 mean, your sister will still be there and you would stay with 6 them and see them; have I got that right? 7 JUROR NO. 179: Yes. 8 JUDGE POTTER: You say you knew some employees 9 at Standard Gravure a couple years ago. You want to tell me 10 about that? 11 JUROR NO. 179: I knew a man named Frank Hall. 12 I worked with him at Reynolds and we were pretty good friends. 13 And a few years back I enclosed my side porch and Southern 14 Gravure was a source of glass; they used to use it in their 15 photographing and etching processes, and it was free. So I 16 went out there and got the glass through Frank. 17 JUDGE POTTER: Was he working at Standard 18 Gravure -- you said Southern Gravure. Is that different from 19 Standard Gravure? 20 JUROR NO. 179: I really don't know. 21 MR. SMITH: I don't know a Southern Gravure. 22 JUROR NO. 179: It's a company that etches 23 rotogravure printing cylinders. 24 JUDGE POTTER: Where is it located? 25 JUROR NO. 179: It's out off of -- I really 103 1 don't know the address. It's out off of Floyd or somewhere 2 out in that neck of the woods. 3 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. I think that's a different 4 company. Does Mr. Hall still work there? 5 JUROR NO. 179: He's since retired. 6 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. 7 JUROR NO. 179: It is a subsidiary of Reynolds 8 Metal Company. Is that Standard or Southern? 9 MR. FREEMAN: That's different. 10 JUDGE POTTER: But you did the right thing, sir. 11 Didn't I tell you if you ever had any doubt about what a 12 question meant, speak up? So you did the right thing on that. 13 All right. I'll remind you of my admonition 14 about not letting anybody talk to you about this case. If 15 you'll go back to the jury room, I'll call you all out in just 16 a minute. Okay. Thank you, sir. 17 (JUROR NO. 179 LEAVES THE COURTROOM) 18 JUDGE POTTER: Ann Merrick, No. 33. I'll go 19 back and get the lady from Mr. Bensinger in just a minute. 20 (JUROR NO. 33 ENTERS THE COURTROOM) 21 JUDGE POTTER: Hi, Ms. Merrick. Do you want to 22 have a seat. I'll remind you you're still under oath. Did 23 you have a chance last night to determine whether you still 24 owned your Lilly stock? 25 JUROR NO. 33: I do not. 104 1 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. And I take it it was just 2 made as an investment? 3 JUROR NO. 33: Yes. 4 JUDGE POTTER: It was either good or bad? 5 JUROR NO. 33: I don't remember. 6 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. You indicated that you had 7 used Prozac briefly yourself? 8 JUROR NO. 33: Yes. 9 JUDGE POTTER: Why did you stop using it? 10 JUROR NO. 33: I was no longer depressed and I 11 was no longer seeing the psychiatrist. 12 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. How long ago was this? 13 JUROR NO. 33: It was two years ago. 14 JUDGE POTTER: And for how long? 15 JUROR NO. 33: Just for a period of three or 16 four months. 17 JUDGE POTTER: And when you stopped seeing the 18 psychiatrist, I take it there was no one left to prescribe it 19 and that's why you stopped? 20 JUROR NO. 33: Well, I took it for a very brief 21 period. It was right after my husband had died. And I just 22 felt that the grief was going longer than it should have, and 23 the medicine helped. 24 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Did you -- I take it you 25 had a satisfactory experience? 105 1 JUROR NO. 33: Yes. 2 JUDGE POTTER: One of the issues in this case 3 will be whether Prozac itself was properly labeled and 4 marketed and distributed to people. Do you think that because 5 of your own experience you would be -- have sort of maybe made 6 up your mind on that issue or not? 7 JUROR NO. 33: I think -- I think if it's 8 prescribed properly and if you're -- the psychiatrist who's 9 making this prescription discusses it with you and keeps you 10 under observation continuously, I think that's the proper way. 11 And then I don't like to feel defensive about a particular 12 drug, that it was a bogeyman. I mean, in subsequent cases 13 when you've applied for insurance or something, oh, they 14 didn't want -- oh, gosh, you took Prozac, we might not be able 15 to give you medical insurance. And, so, I mean, I felt 16 strongly that it was good for me. So I think I lean a little 17 bit in favor of it. 18 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. 19 JUROR NO. 33: Or have I reached -- 20 JUDGE POTTER: No. There's nothing wrong with 21 having an opinion. Okay? And so if what -- do you think that 22 you could hear evidence that it might not be what you think it 23 is, open-mindedly, or do you think you would say, well, I've 24 had my own experience and -- 25 JUROR NO. 33: I would try to be open-minded, 106 1 but I think that my experience left me with a very positive 2 impression of the drug itself. 3 JUDGE POTTER: How do you think that would 4 affect you in this trial? 5 JUROR NO. 33: I might not be 100-percent 6 impartial. 7 JUDGE POTTER: And -- okay. Ma'am, I'm going to 8 remind you of my admonition about allowing other people to 9 talk to you or talking to other people. If you'll go back to 10 the jury room I'll call you all out in just a minute. Okay? 11 JUROR NO. 33: (Nods head affirmatively). 12 (JUROR NO. 33 LEAVES THE COURTROOM) 13 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Smith? 14 MR. SMITH: We'd move to strike Ms. Merrick for 15 cause. In addition, I'd point to the Court the answer of the 16 Witness to Question 26. 17 JUDGE POTTER: I don't know why I asked her more 18 questions about it than I have the past ones, but she just 19 seemed like she'd be able to express herself fairly well. 20 Mr. Stopher, is there anything you want to say 21 before I rule on Mr. Smith's motion? 22 MR. STOPHER: If I can take a look at the 23 questionnaire. 24 JUDGE POTTER: I'm not relying on her 25 questionnaire; I'm relying on what went on here. 107 1 MR. STOPHER: No. I think not, Your Honor. 2 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. I'm granting the motion to 3 strike her. 4 Well, Ms. O'Reilly took it but she called in 5 sick. 6 Let's go back and pick up Joan Laurie, No. 202. 7 MR. STOPHER: Judge, what are we doing, then, 8 with Ms. O'Reilly; is she out? 9 JUDGE POTTER: My jury pool will try and find 10 her and find out what her sickness is. If she comes in 11 tomorrow there's no reason -- she has not been excused. 12 MR. SMITH: What are we going back to, Your 13 Honor? I'm sorry. 14 JUDGE POTTER: Ms. Laurie pointed out that she 15 knows Mr. Bensinger, and I think she told me in front of 16 everybody that it wasn't going to affect her, but in case I 17 didn't, we'll get it now. 18 (JUROR NO. 202 ENTERS THE COURTROOM) 19 JUDGE POTTER: How are you, Ms. Laurie? 20 JUROR NO. 202: Fine, thank you. 21 JUDGE POTTER: You want to have a seat? And 22 I'll remind you you're still under oath. We may have gone 23 over this. You indicated that you knew Mr. Bensinger? 24 JUROR NO. 202: Yes, sir. 25 JUDGE POTTER: And you know him from seeing him 108 1 around at various political clubs? 2 JUROR NO. 202: That's right. 3 JUDGE POTTER: Are you an officer in any 4 political clubs? 5 JUROR NO. 202: Yes. I'm an officer in one of 6 the Democratic clubs. 7 JUDGE POTTER: Which one? 8 JUROR NO. 202: America 2000. 9 JUDGE POTTER: Is he a member there or he just 10 comes to politic? 11 JUROR NO. 202: I think he may be on the list, 12 you know. 13 JUDGE POTTER: Along with half the world; right? 14 JUROR NO. 202: Exactly, yeah. 15 JUDGE POTTER: Is there anything about, you 16 know, your relationship with him that you think might carry 17 over to this case that you'd be reluctant to decide against 18 his clients for any reason? 19 JUROR NO. 202: No. Not in that -- not for that 20 reason. 21 JUDGE POTTER: Well, is there another reason? 22 JUROR NO. 202: Well, some feelings that I have 23 about it might be a reason but... 24 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Well, since -- we'll just 25 take a little side detour. What are those feelings? 109 1 JUROR NO. 202: Well, I tried to express it on 2 the questionnaire. I have serious doubts as to the efficacy 3 of an organization being blamed for the actions of an 4 individual. Those are just personal feelings. 5 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. I tell you what. We're 6 going to have another kind of group interview where the 7 lawyers will be able to ask you questions, and they may take 8 that up. I mean, just, do you think that would prevent you 9 from serving here or you just don't know; it's something you 10 want us to know about? 11 JUROR NO. 202: I don't want to say that my mind 12 is closed and I'm not the kind of person who could not be 13 persuaded, but I just wanted to make you aware that I do have 14 those feelings. 15 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. So if I understand you 16 correctly, what you're saying is, is that it would be awfully 17 hard to persuade you? 18 JUROR NO. 202: Possibly. 19 JUDGE POTTER: And are you telling me that your 20 mind may not be made up 100 percent, but it's kind of -- it 21 would be "prove what I think is wrong" is kind of the attitude 22 you'd come into the case with? 23 JUROR NO. 202: Yes, sir. Yes, sir. 24 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Thank you very much. I'd 25 remind you about talking with other people and I'll call you 110 1 all back out in just a minute. 2 JUROR NO. 202: Okay. Okay. 3 (JUROR NO. 202 LEAVES THE COURTROOM) 4 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Smith, is there anything you 5 want to say? 6 MR. SMITH: We move to strike Ms. Laurie. 7 MR. FREEMAN: I think we ought to be able to 8 voir dire. 9 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. I got off track, and I 10 will let you ask her some questions before I rule on that, 11 just simply because I got off track. 12 Juanita Potts. 13 (JUROR NO. 50 ENTERS THE COURTROOM) 14 JUDGE POTTER: Hi, Ms. Potts. You want to have 15 a seat, ma'am. I'll remind you you're still under oath. You 16 indicated that this would be a hardship if you were called to 17 serve on the jury? 18 JUROR NO. 50: Yes, sir. 19 JUDGE POTTER: Can you tell me why? 20 JUROR NO. 50: My husband was in an accident a 21 couple weeks ago that's rendered him unable to work, so he has 22 no income. And I've taken a job part time and I don't have 23 anyone to care for my daughter in the evenings when I go to my 24 full-time job after leaving here. I had to get a baby-sitter 25 until 7:30 last night so I could get to my regular job because 111 1 I've taken -- 2 JUDGE POTTER: Is your husband at home or in the 3 hospital? 4 JUROR NO. 50: He's at home, but he's all 5 bandaged and in a sling. He almost cut off his finger with a 6 circular saw, and he will be unable to work for at least 7 another six weeks. 8 JUDGE POTTER: And what -- you work at Columbia? 9 JUROR NO. 50: Yes, sir. 10 JUDGE POTTER: What is your second job, or is 11 that your nighttime job? 12 JUROR NO. 50: I'm working in another department 13 at the same company on the weekends doing some filing and 14 typing for them. 15 JUDGE POTTER: And your normal job is at night? 16 JUROR NO. 50: No. It's eight to five, but I 17 went in last night when I got out of here. 18 JUDGE POTTER: You indicated that your 19 grandmother takes Prozac? 20 JUROR NO. 50: She has in the past. She's not 21 taking it right now. 22 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Was there anything in that 23 relation to your grandmother that was out of the ordinary; 24 that she had a bad experience, she had a very good experience? 25 JUROR NO. 50: She seemed to have a good 112 1 experience with it. She was taking it after her husband died 2 and she was depressed, and she took it and it seemed to really 3 help her. 4 JUDGE POTTER: Then she stopped taking it just 5 because she felt she didn't need it? 6 JUROR NO. 50: Right. 7 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Remember my admonition 8 about talking to other people, and if you'll go back to the 9 jury room I'll call you all out in just a minute. 10 JUROR NO. 50: Thank you. 11 (JUROR NO. 50 LEAVES THE COURTROOM) 12 JUDGE POTTER: I'm thinking about excusing her 13 for hardship. Does anybody have anything they want to say? 14 MR. SMITH: We move to excuse her for hardship. 15 MR. FREEMAN: We agree, Your Honor. 16 JUDGE POTTER: Robert Rapp, No. 152. 17 (JUROR NO. 152 ENTERS THE COURTROOM) 18 JUDGE POTTER: How are you, Mr. Rapp? 19 JUROR NO. 152: Pretty good. 20 JUDGE POTTER: I want to remind you, sir, you're 21 still under oath. 22 JUROR NO. 152: Yes, sir. 23 JUDGE POTTER: You indicated that you had a 24 friend that worked at Standard Gravure? 25 JUROR NO. 152: Yes, sir. 113 1 JUDGE POTTER: And you see him you said one or 2 two times a year? 3 JUROR NO. 152: Yes, sir. 4 JUDGE POTTER: Is there anything about -- what 5 was your friend's name? 6 JUROR NO. 152: Richard Shacklett. 7 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Was he there when this 8 happened, if you know? 9 JUROR NO. 152: He was -- you know, he worked 10 there at the time. 11 JUDGE POTTER: Now, if he was there in the 12 building, I'm sure -- 13 JUROR NO. 152: I think he was in maintenance so 14 he probably wasn't. 15 JUDGE POTTER: So I take it you haven't talked 16 to him very much about it? 17 JUROR NO. 152: Not about this; no, sir. 18 JUDGE POTTER: You indicated that it would be a 19 hardship for you if you had to serve on the jury; you want to 20 tell me why? 21 JUROR NO. 152: Yes, sir. I figure six to eight 22 weeks would be very difficult financially for me and my family 23 to be away from the job that long. 24 JUDGE POTTER: You work at Ford? 25 JUROR NO. 152: Yes, sir. 114 1 JUDGE POTTER: Have you checked with your union 2 to see if they supplement your jury pay? 3 JUROR NO. 152: They do up to 40 hours' worth, 4 but we've been on 58 hours for so long it seems like that's my 5 normal hours now, so -- the overtime that we're on and have 6 been. That's where the money starts, really, after 40 hours. 7 JUDGE POTTER: You make, what, 12 or 14 an hour? 8 What do you earn out there? 9 JUROR NO. 152: What do I earn? 10 JUDGE POTTER: Uh-huh. 11 JUROR NO. 152: Around $18 an hour. 12 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. I'm going to ask you to go 13 back to the jury room and I'll call you all out in a minute. 14 And, obviously, remember my admonition about talking to other 15 people about it. 16 JUROR NO. 152: Okay. 17 JUDGE POTTER: Okay? Thank you. 18 JUROR NO. 152: Yes, sir. 19 (JUROR NO. 152 LEAVES THE COURTROOM) 20 JUDGE POTTER: Charles Richy, No. 167. 21 (JUROR NO. 167 ENTERS THE COURTROOM) 22 MR. SMITH: Your Honor, Mr. Richy didn't answer 23 30 or 31 on his questionnaire. Would it be possible -- or you 24 want to wait till later? 25 JUDGE POTTER: Yeah. You-all just have to work 115 1 through that. 2 Okay. How are you, Mr. Richy? 3 JUROR NO. 167: Fine, sir, and you? 4 JUDGE POTTER: Fine. I want to remind you 5 you're still under oath, sir. 6 JUROR NO. 167: All right, sir. 7 JUDGE POTTER: You indicated that if you were 8 called to serve on this jury it might be a hardship for you; 9 you want to tell me why? 10 JUROR NO. 167: Yes. I'm kind of an overseer of 11 a child development center and a school. We don't have the 12 school; we have a child development center there at the 13 school, and when things go wrong they usually call me. And 14 that's what I was more or less concerned with, being off the 15 whole -- two weeks is no problem, but eight weeks is really... 16 JUDGE POTTER: Do you have an assistant 17 administrator or somebody that runs the school for you? 18 JUROR NO. 167: We have the pastor of the 19 church, and then we have a lady at the school that runs the 20 child development center, but we don't have any custodian or 21 anything like that. 22 JUDGE POTTER: And how do you spend your normal 23 day? 24 JUROR NO. 167: I'm in my office and then 25 whatever happens. I mean, if they call, this has got to be 116 1 done or that's got to be done, then I've got to go -- either I 2 do it or I get a contractor or something like that to do it. 3 JUDGE POTTER: If I understand you correctly, 4 what you're saying is that this would be probably a hardship 5 on the pastor and the person that's running the school, but if 6 you were called to serve, it would work out? 7 JUROR NO. 167: I'm sure it would, yeah. 8 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. 9 JUROR NO. 167: Somebody would get it done, 10 yeah. 11 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Thank you very much, sir. 12 I remind you not to talk about this case, and I'll call you 13 all back in in just a second. 14 JUROR NO. 167: All right, sir. Thank you. 15 (JUROR NO. 167 LEAVES THE COURTROOM) 16 JUDGE POTTER: Virginia Roberts, No. 36. 17 (JUROR NO. 36 ENTERS THE COURTROOM) 18 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Ms. Roberts, you want to 19 have a seat over here, ma'am? I'll remind you you're still 20 under oath. 21 JUROR NO. 36: Yes, sir. 22 JUDGE POTTER: You indicated that it would be a 23 hardship on you to serve on this jury; do you want to tell me 24 why? 25 JUROR NO. 36: Well, I have a handicapped child 117 1 at home and I need the income. 2 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. What's the nature of the 3 handicap? 4 JUROR NO. 36: Cerebral palsy. 5 JUDGE POTTER: And he lives at home? 6 JUROR NO. 36: Yes, sir. He's age 24. 7 JUDGE POTTER: Is somebody with him during the 8 day? 9 JUROR NO. 36: No. No. He's used to staying by 10 hisself during the day because I do work. 11 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. And so if you were down -- 12 you work nine to five at Sears? 13 JUROR NO. 36: Well, twelve to five, yes. 14 JUDGE POTTER: And what do you earn there? 15 JUROR NO. 36: Oh, boy. About five twenty-five 16 an hour. 17 JUDGE POTTER: And you work a 40-hour week or 18 less than a 40-hour week? 19 JUROR NO. 36: Less than 40; 30, 35. 20 JUDGE POTTER: And I take it your son is on SSI 21 maybe? 22 JUROR NO. 36: Yes. 23 JUDGE POTTER: But as far as taking care of your 24 son or seeing after your son, down here would be no different 25 than going to Sears; is that fair to say? 118 1 JUROR NO. 36: Yeah. I suppose so. 2 JUDGE POTTER: And have you checked with Sears 3 to know whether or not they would supplement your -- 4 JUROR NO. 36: No, they do not. 5 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Thank you very much, 6 ma'am. I remind you about not talking to anybody about this 7 case, and I'll call you all back in in just a minute. Okay? 8 JUROR NO. 36: Okay. 9 JUDGE POTTER: Oh, one other thing. I wasn't 10 reading my notes very carefully. You have a family member 11 that takes Prozac? 12 JUROR NO. 36: She was, yes. 13 JUDGE POTTER: Who was that? 14 JUROR NO. 36: A younger sister. 15 JUDGE POTTER: And is she still taking it? 16 JUROR NO. 36: No, sir. 17 JUDGE POTTER: Why did she stop? 18 JUROR NO. 36: A personality change. 19 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. And she just -- so she 20 didn't like it; is that fair to say? 21 JUROR NO. 36: It wasn't helping her. It was 22 making matters worse. 23 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Do you think your 24 experience with your sister would carry over into this trial? 25 JUROR NO. 36: To be truthful, yes, I do. 119 1 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. And in what way? 2 JUROR NO. 36: Oh, boy. I don't like the drug. 3 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. And Prozac in particular, 4 or you just don't like drugs that people take for what some 5 people consider a mental illness? 6 JUROR NO. 36: Well, a family member did have a 7 bad experience with Prozac, so it's not the group of drugs 8 that would be prescribed, it's just that particular drug. 9 JUDGE POTTER: And the family member is your -- 10 you didn't have any other family member; we're talking about 11 your sister? 12 JUROR NO. 36: No. Just my younger sister, yes. 13 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Thank you very much. 14 We'll call you out again. 15 JUROR NO. 36: Thank you. 16 (JUROR NO. 36 LEAVES THE COURTROOM) 17 MR. FREEMAN: We move to excuse her for cause. 18 JUDGE POTTER: I'm going to excuse her for 19 hardship. I had 99 percent made up my mind on that, and 20 that's why I didn't ask her about the other thing. And then I 21 thought maybe I can avoid making a call on that if I ask her 22 the other one. 23 MR. SMITH: Well, we'd just point out that 24 obviously under the statute she doesn't constitute hardship. 25 If the Court's going to strike her for cause, we would just -- 120 1 we would point out that that reasoning should apply equally to 2 people who are taking Prozac and receiving bad experiences 3 taking Prozac. 4 JUDGE POTTER: As I said, Mr. Smith, I had 5 decided to excuse her for cause and that's really why I didn't 6 go into the other thing, and then I saw her getting up. I 7 mean, somebody earning five twenty-five an hour, divorced. 8 MR. STOPHER: Cerebral palsy. 9 JUDGE POTTER: Well, it isn't the cerebral 10 palsy. It's five twenty-five an hour and that's her only 11 income except SSI, so I was going to excuse her for hardship. 12 Jane Smith. 13 MR. SMITH: Did she indicate she couldn't serve? 14 JUDGE POTTER: Yeah. She considers it a 15 hardship. She also takes it daily. 16 (JUROR NO. 99 ENTERS THE COURTROOM) 17 JUDGE POTTER: Hi, Ms. Smith. Do you want to 18 have a seat? I remind you you're still under oath. 19 JUROR NO. 99: Okay. 20 JUDGE POTTER: You indicated that it would be a 21 hardship for you to serve on this jury; do you want to tell me 22 why? 23 JUROR NO. 99: Well, I think I have two reasons. 24 One, I've been in physical therapy for about a year and I need 25 to go three times a week starting at three to six o'clock, 121 1 Monday, Wednesday and Friday. And the other one not so 2 important, but I did make reservations, nonrefundable tickets 3 to Florida leaving on October 16th. 4 JUDGE POTTER: When do you go to physical 5 therapy? 6 JUROR NO. 99: Monday, Wednesday and Friday. 7 Every Monday, Wednesday and Friday. 8 JUDGE POTTER: Yeah. And you told me the hours 9 and it went in this ear and out that ear. 10 JUROR NO. 99: It's three to six. 11 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. And do you mind if I ask 12 what your therapy is for? 13 JUROR NO. 99: I was told I needed back surgery 14 and I'm trying to avoid it. 15 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Is it -- has it been 16 successful for you? 17 JUROR NO. 99: It certainly has. It took about 18 a year for it to start improving my position, but my other 19 problem is I can't really sit very long. 20 JUDGE POTTER: Well, that's what I was getting 21 around to. What's the longest period you've gone without your 22 physical therapy, or do you do it even when you're in Florida? 23 JUROR NO. 99: I do it when I'm in Florida. 24 JUDGE POTTER: Is this something you cannot do 25 from six to nine at night if that's when you're scheduled? 122 1 JUROR NO. 99: The person I see cannot take me 2 from six to nine at night. I have a particular one I see, 3 I've found. 4 JUDGE POTTER: What's the longest time you've 5 gone without seeing this person? 6 JUROR NO. 99: Approximately a week. 7 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. You indicated that -- but 8 as far as your back today, do you feel you could sit for an 9 hour and a half at a time with ten-minute breaks, or not? 10 JUROR NO. 99: Yes, sir; I can. 11 JUDGE POTTER: Do you think that if you missed 12 your physical therapy for eight weeks it might have a bad 13 effect on you, or do you think that would just be something 14 you could do? 15 JUROR NO. 99: Well, knowing me, I'm sure I'd 16 find another way around it. Probably go on the weekends, to 17 give you an honest answer. I'd just take it two days instead 18 of three. 19 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. You indicated that you 20 take Prozac yourself; is that right? 21 JUROR NO. 99: Yes, I do. 22 JUDGE POTTER: How long have you been taking it? 23 JUROR NO. 99: Since February. 24 JUDGE POTTER: Of this year? 25 JUROR NO. 99: Of this year. 123 1 JUDGE POTTER: And what kind of doctor 2 prescribed it for you? 3 JUROR NO. 99: Actually, she's an obstetrician/ 4 gynecologist. 5 JUDGE POTTER: Have you had a satisfactory 6 experience? 7 JUROR NO. 99: Yes, I have. 8 JUDGE POTTER: Do you have a plan that you're 9 going to stop taking it at a certain point or you just don't 10 know? 11 JUROR NO. 99: I was told that I could take it 12 the rest of my life if it helped me. No, I have no plans to 13 stop. It's a very minimal dosage, and I seem to get along 14 with it very well. 15 JUDGE POTTER: What dosage is that, do you know? 16 JUROR NO. 99: Twenty milligrams. 17 JUDGE POTTER: One of the issues in this case 18 will be whether Prozac is helpful or whether it's been 19 properly marketed and labeled and whether it caused Mr. 20 Wesbecker to do what he did. Do you feel from your own 21 personal experience with the drug that it would carry over 22 into this case in trying to decide those kinds of issues? 23 JUROR NO. 99: I believe it might influence me, 24 yes, because I've had a good experience with it. And I might 25 feel that under the circumstances that he may have taken it 124 1 differently than I did or -- you know, I just judge it on my 2 own taking of the medication. That's the only thing I have to 3 go on. 4 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Do you think that you 5 could listen to evidence one way or the other or do you think 6 you'd tend to go on what you've experienced? 7 JUROR NO. 99: I can listen. I don't have any 8 problem with that. 9 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Thank you very much. 10 Remind you not to talk to anybody about this case, and I'll 11 call you all back in in a few minutes. 12 JUROR NO. 99: All right. Thank you. 13 (JUROR NO. 99 LEAVES THE COURTROOM) 14 MR. SMITH: Move to strike Ms. Smith. 15 MR. STOPHER: No objection. 16 JUDGE POTTER: Stricken. 17 Maurice Smith, 47. 18 (JUROR NO. 47 ENTERS THE COURTROOM) 19 JUDGE POTTER: Hello, Mr. Smith. How are you? 20 JUROR NO. 47: All right, sir. 21 JUDGE POTTER: I want to remind you, sir, that 22 you're still under oath. You have indicated that it would be 23 a hardship for you to serve on this jury; you want to tell me 24 why? 25 JUROR NO. 47: I run my own business and there's 125 1 no one to replace me while I'm gone. 2 JUDGE POTTER: What does Hermitage Hardwoods do? 3 JUROR NO. 47: Manufacture hardwood veneer. 4 JUDGE POTTER: How many people work in the 5 plant? 6 JUROR NO. 47: About 50. 7 JUDGE POTTER: Do you have a vice-president or 8 assistant or somebody? 9 JUROR NO. 47: I've got a production manager and 10 sales manager. 11 JUDGE POTTER: What happens when you go on 12 vacation? 13 JUROR NO. 47: For a couple weeks, nothing 14 severe. 15 JUDGE POTTER: What would happen if you were 16 away from the business for eight weeks but assuming you could 17 go in on Saturday or you could go over there after 5:30 if you 18 wanted to? What would happen then? 19 JUROR NO. 47: I'm not sure. 20 JUDGE POTTER: You're not sure? 21 JUROR NO. 47: I'm not sure. Well, I've just 22 never done it, and I think it would probably -- business would 23 go on, but I would think it would be affected. 24 JUDGE POTTER: I'm sorry. Your voice -- 25 JUROR NO. 47: I think it would be quite 126 1 difficult. The things that I do, we're usually pretty busy. 2 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. But if I hear you right, 3 what you're saying is you wouldn't like it, it would be 4 difficult, probably your production manager and your sales 5 manager would hate you, but the thing would go along and you 6 would get through it; is that what I'm hearing? 7 JUROR NO. 47: That's correct. 8 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Thank you very much, sir. 9 I remind you not to talk to anybody about this case, and we're 10 going to call you all back in in just a minute. Okay? 11 JUROR NO. 47: Okay. 12 (JUROR NO. 47 LEAVES THE COURTROOM) 13 JUDGE POTTER: Have you-all -- maybe I've got 14 Detective Spalding mixed up with somebody else. Have you-all 15 come to any kind of agreement about Detective Spalding? 16 MR. FREEMAN: We think he ought to serve. 17 JUDGE POTTER: Detective -- isn't he Detective? 18 Denis Spalding, No. 52. 19 (JUROR NO. 52 ENTERS THE COURTROOM) 20 JUDGE POTTER: How are you, Detective? 21 JUROR NO. 52: Fine, Judge. And you? 22 JUDGE POTTER: Pretty good. You've mentioned 23 that it would be a hardship for you to serve on this jury. 24 Why would that be? 25 JUROR NO. 52: Currently, as you know, I'm 127 1 working in a unit that consists of supposedly ten people; 2 there are nine of us now. Due to attrition, they've just not 3 filled the slot. If I leave, that takes us down to eight. 4 The other night we had one of our detectives had emergency 5 gallbladder surgery, which took us down one, and we have 6 another scheduled to deliver a baby probably any day now, so 7 that would knock us down again. So from nine we'd be down to 8 six. 9 JUDGE POTTER: And you'd take it to five? 10 JUROR NO. 52: Yes. And I've got several -- not 11 that I'm an integral part of it and not that things couldn't 12 be adjusted, moved around or further adjusted, but I've got 13 several trials scheduled between now and the next month in 14 several other court cases, not that I would be totally 15 instrumental or have to be there. 16 JUDGE POTTER: You're the lead officer or are 17 you just a witness in it? 18 JUROR NO. 52: I'm lead detective on several of 19 them. 20 JUDGE POTTER: You said you've been involved in 21 investigating -- I may have you wrong. Did you have anything 22 to do with the shooting up there at Standard Gravure? 23 JUROR NO. 52: I did none of the investigative 24 work. I was there; I responded to the scene that afternoon. 25 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. What was your role up 128 1 there? 2 JUROR NO. 52: By the time I got there, 3 everything had just been -- we were moving people out, 4 securing the area. 5 JUDGE POTTER: And you, what, made an 6 investigative letter and that was the end of it? 7 JUROR NO. 52: No. I didn't even do -- wasn't 8 involved in the investigation of the incident at all. I was 9 there as more of a support. Everybody in the area was there 10 that day. 11 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. You said you have been 12 involved in investigating family members of Mr. Wesbecker? 13 JUROR NO. 52: Yes, sir. 14 JUDGE POTTER: We're talking about his son; is 15 that correct? 16 JUROR NO. 52: Yes, sir. 17 JUDGE POTTER: Tell me your role in that. 18 JUROR NO. 52: You want details? 19 JUDGE POTTER: Well, just what you think I need 20 to know about it. 21 JUROR NO. 52: There were several allegations in 22 reference to Mr. Wesbecker's son before and even after the 23 incident, and we interviewed witnesses in reference to those 24 and made recommendations and things of that nature. 25 JUDGE POTTER: And we're talking about somebody 129 1 that's exposing themselves? 2 JUROR NO. 52: Yes, sir. 3 JUDGE POTTER: Were you involved in his 4 latest -- it's my understanding he's out at Central State or 5 at least somewhere for 90 days, locked up. Were you involved 6 in that? 7 JUROR NO. 52: Not directly. Another detective 8 was handling that situation, knew that I had some prior 9 involvement, prior knowledge of other situations, and 10 consulted with me, so to speak. 11 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. And you indicated that you 12 know some of the plaintiffs; am I reading my notes right? 13 JUROR NO. 52: Mr. Gorman. 14 JUDGE POTTER: How do you know him? 15 JUROR NO. 52: From church. 16 JUDGE POTTER: Do you-all serve on any kind of 17 committees together or anything like that or you just know him 18 as another church member? 19 JUROR NO. 52: No, sir. 20 JUDGE POTTER: Do you ever see him socially 21 outside of church or any way other than outside of church? 22 JUROR NO. 52: No, sir. Church picnics. 23 JUDGE POTTER: Is there anything about your 24 relationship with Mr. Gorman that might carry over into this 25 trial? 130 1 JUROR NO. 52: I wouldn't think so at this time; 2 no, sir. 3 JUDGE POTTER: One of the issues in this case 4 will be why Mr. Wesbecker did what he did, or what were the 5 several factors that may have caused Mr. Wesbecker to do what 6 he did. And what I'm going to ask you, do you think because 7 you were there on the scene -- and I assume you've talked to 8 dozens of other policemen about it and they've related their 9 experiences and, you know, it would be only natural, do you 10 think you have a great deal of information that you've had 11 from talking to these people that would make it hard for you 12 to decide this case based on what you see here in the 13 courtroom as opposed to what you in your mind think went on? 14 JUROR NO. 52: I would like to think that I 15 could sit there and take all the information in and correlate 16 it and not put a human or a personal opinion into it. Having 17 seen what I saw that day, having heard what I've heard, it may 18 be very difficult to give an unbiased or... 19 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Have you heard something 20 in particular about what went on that day that you think would 21 give you an insight into what the cause of it was or what the 22 whole thing was? 23 JUROR NO. 52: No. 24 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Thank you very much, 25 Detective. I'm going to call you out, all of you together, in 131 1 a minute. And just remember my admonition about talking about 2 the case. 3 JUROR NO. 52: Thank you. 4 JUDGE POTTER: Thank you, sir. 5 (JUROR NO. 52 LEAVES THE COURTROOM) 6 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Stopher, do you-all still 7 want him on the jury? 8 MR. STOPHER: Judge, I don't think he said 9 anything that would exclude him for cause. 10 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Mr. Smith, are you -- 11 MR. SMITH: We'd move to exclude him. 12 JUDGE POTTER: Why? 13 MR. SMITH: Several factors. Number One, it 14 appears that he's a police officer dealing with the public and 15 that their section is reduced at this time to start with. He 16 has court appearances. I'm afraid he might compromise the 17 public safety or the administration of justice. 18 MR. FREEMAN: Oh, my. 19 MR. SMITH: Well, I'm sorry. 20 JUDGE POTTER: No. Let's address cause, because 21 Detective Spalding is a big person and he will be able to sort 22 that out somehow, I'm convinced of that. He testifies in my 23 court. 24 MR. SMITH: I thought we were going to withhold 25 our -- the other objections. I thought it was cause that we 132 1 were addressing, Your Honor. 2 JUDGE POTTER: Go ahead. I didn't mean to cut 3 you off. Go ahead and say what -- 4 MR. SMITH: Since I'm not from Louisville, maybe 5 I don't have the same insight. 6 JUDGE POTTER: You don't. You don't. And it's 7 a large police department. I can't really remember what unit 8 he's in right now, but they get pushed and shoved and taken 9 out and whatnot, so I'm not excusing him for hardship. Do you 10 have anything to say about his being involved in the 11 brother's -- or son's? 12 MR. SMITH: Yes, I do. 13 JUDGE POTTER: What do you want to say about 14 that? 15 MR. SMITH: Apparently he investigated Mr. Jimmy 16 Wesbecker before and after this incident. He may have even 17 had discussions with Mr. Joseph Wesbecker concerning this 18 incident. The testimony has been that Mr. Joseph Wesbecker 19 was supportive and talked with investigators when this 20 occurred. He may have had in-person discussions with Mr. 21 Wesbecker. He very well has knowledge concerning facts and 22 circumstances surrounding this -- the stressors on Mr. Joseph 23 Wesbecker. 24 Additionally, the defendants are going to argue 25 that Jimmy Wesbecker's conduct was a stressor on Mr. Joseph 133 1 Wesbecker. This individual has personal knowledge of Mr. 2 Jimmy Wesbecker's conduct far and above that that would be 3 presented and made known to an ordinary jury. 4 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Stopher? 5 MR. STOPHER: Judge, I never heard him say that 6 he ever met Joseph Wesbecker. 7 JUDGE POTTER: And I didn't ask him, so... I 8 probably should have. 9 MR. STOPHER: And the possibility that that may 10 have occurred is not grounds to strike this man for cause. I 11 mean, anybody I suppose could have met Joseph Wesbecker and we 12 didn't ask them. 13 Secondly, Judge, with regard to Jimmy Wesbecker, 14 Jimmy Wesbecker's conduct is not an issue here; it is the 15 effect on Joseph Wesbecker of knowledge about his son. So 16 this gentleman's information about the son factually and 17 whether or not he did or did not commit crimes is irrelevant. 18 The relevant thing is the effects of that information on 19 Joseph Wesbecker. So I don't see that that is grounds for 20 cause any more than the possibility that maybe sometime he met 21 Joseph Wesbecker. 22 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Sheriff, could you have 23 Detective Spalding step back in? 24 (JUROR NO. 52 REENTERS THE COURTROOM) 25 JUDGE POTTER: Detective Spalding, again I 134 1 remind you you're under oath. I forgot to ask you, did you 2 have any contact with Mr. Joseph Wesbecker in, you know, 3 talking to him about his son? You can go ahead and sit down, 4 sir. 5 JUROR NO. 52: No, sir. I never spoke to him. 6 Never saw the man. 7 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. 8 JUROR NO. 52: His son was an adult at the time. 9 JUDGE POTTER: Tell me more about what you did 10 in connection with the son's case, Jimmy Wesbecker. 11 JUROR NO. 52: We interviewed several witnesses, 12 victims of his, people that he had exposed. 13 JUDGE POTTER: What time period are we talking 14 about? 15 JUROR NO. 52: I don't remember exactly in 16 relation to the incident. 17 JUDGE POTTER: But it was around that time? 18 JUROR NO. 52: Yes, sir. 19 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Go ahead and finish what 20 you were saying. 21 JUROR NO. 52: We had interviewed him. There 22 had been warrants taken. He was subsequently arrested by 23 other officers. I never physically arrested him. We had 24 spoken to him and then went through with the court proceedings 25 of it. 135 1 JUDGE POTTER: And he was ultimately convicted 2 of a misdemeanor; is that where we are? 3 JUROR NO. 52: Yes, sir. 4 JUDGE POTTER: And as far as you know, that 5 proceeding was -- it was all in one case; right? 6 JUROR NO. 52: My involvement was one time. I 7 never had knowledge of the ones prior to that. 8 JUDGE POTTER: And following, the ones since? 9 JUROR NO. 52: Yes. 10 JUDGE POTTER: I think I kind of asked you this 11 before and I think you answered it, but I'm going to ask it 12 again. If you were to hear testimony about Mr. Wesbecker, the 13 father, and what went on that day and why he did do what he 14 did, do you think you could base it on -- your decision on 15 what you heard here rather than your own personal experience 16 of seeing the scene and having talked to lots of police 17 officers about what went on up there that day and, you know, 18 what you've heard about the son? I'm sure everytime he's 19 mentioned now they call you and say he's the son of the person 20 that did this. Do you understand what I'm asking you? And if 21 you don't know the answer -- 22 JUROR NO. 52: I think I do. And, like I said, 23 I would like to say that I could sit there and listen to 24 evidence, testimony and what have you, weigh it against -- or 25 weigh it absent of any personal knowledge, personal 136 1 information. I would like to sit here and tell you that I 2 think that I could, but I can't guarantee you that a week from 3 now, two weeks from now, if that answers your question. 4 JUDGE POTTER: It answers it probably as good as 5 anybody can answer it. Okay. Thank you very much, Detective. 6 (JUROR NO. 52 LEAVES THE COURTROOM) 7 JUDGE POTTER: I'm going to go ahead and grant 8 the motion on him for cause, and it's not because he was -- I 9 think he answered the question as best he could. I just think 10 the practicalities of it, the man has a tremendous amount of 11 outside information about this case, and I just think he 12 should be excused because he just has that tremendous amount 13 of outside information about the case. 14 George Sullivan, 212. 15 (JUROR NO. 212 ENTERS THE COURTROOM) 16 JUDGE POTTER: How are you, Mr. Sullivan? You 17 want to take a seat, sir. I remind you you're still under 18 oath, sir. 19 JUROR NO. 212: Yes. 20 JUDGE POTTER: You indicated that if you were 21 called to serve on this jury it would be a hardship; you want 22 to tell me a little bit more about that? 23 JUROR NO. 212: I'm maintenance manager of one 24 of the units here at Rohm & Haas here in Louisville, and just 25 being away for two weeks really makes it difficult to get back 137 1 in and see what's going on. So it's a job related. 2 JUDGE POTTER: How many people are in your 3 maintenance department? 4 JUROR NO. 212: We have a total of 15. 5 JUDGE POTTER: And there's someone above you or 6 you're the head of the department? 7 JUROR NO. 212: I'm the head of the department. 8 JUDGE POTTER: Do you have anybody between you 9 and the actual people who are turning the bolts and nuts? 10 JUROR NO. 212: Yes. I have a foreman. 11 JUDGE POTTER: If you were called to sit on this 12 case, what do you think would happen out there? Your foreman 13 would hate you, but other than that what would happen? Or 14 maybe he'd love it, I don't know. 15 JUROR NO. 212: I'm not so sure, either. But I 16 think it would be a hardship not only on myself but on him and 17 everyone else. We need people to be able to do things that 18 they do to make the decisions that need to be made. 19 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. And do you think this 20 would happen -- do you have maintenance people on the premises 21 around the clock? 22 JUROR NO. 212: Yes. 23 JUDGE POTTER: What do you think would happen if 24 you were on the jury but could go out there an hour or two at 25 night to check on what's going on and, you know what I mean, 138 1 kind of keep things going that way? 2 JUROR NO. 212: Well, that would be what would 3 have to be done. 4 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. So if I'm understanding 5 you correctly, it would be a hardship and it's something you 6 wouldn't want to put on other people, but things would go on? 7 JUROR NO. 212: Life goes on. 8 JUDGE POTTER: That's right. I mean, but -- I 9 mean, and I take it you're salaried out there? 10 JUROR NO. 212: Yes. 11 JUDGE POTTER: Thank you very much, sir. 12 Remember my admonition about communicating or thinking about 13 forming opinions about the case, and I'm going to call you all 14 back in in just a second. 15 JUROR NO. 212: Okay. Thanks. 16 (JUROR NO. 212 LEAVES THE COURTROOM) 17 JUDGE POTTER: Let's recap. Out of this group 18 of 25, I've excused Lampkins, Lanham, Merrick, Potts, Roberts, 19 Jane Smith/No. 99, Detective Spalding, and that's it. Things 20 are going much slower than I thought. These people can come 21 in tomorrow. You've got 30 some-odd jurors over there. Take 22 an hour or hour and a half for lunch and finish these 30 23 jurors and do these people in the morning? Is that all right? 24 MR. SMITH: (Nods head affirmatively). 25 MR. STOPHER: (Nods head affirmatively). 139 1 (PROSPECTIVE JURORS ENTER THE COURTROOM) 2 JUDGE POTTER: Ladies and gentlemen, I'm going 3 to excuse some of you, and what I'm going to do is when I call 4 out your name, would you please stand up and then I can count 5 your heads and match you up with my list and be sure I've got 6 it right... Ms. Beatrice Lampkins. Ms. Judy Lanham. Ms. Ann 7 Merrick. Ms. Juanita Potts. Ms. Virginia Roberts. Ms. Jane 8 Smith. And Detective Spalding. I didn't realize it till 9 you-all stood up. We go through these things one at a time. 10 And I'm not saying I don't think about you being a man or a 11 woman, but except for Detective Spalding we've had all women. 12 Okay. I'm going to excuse you-all. I want to 13 thank you very much. What you need to do is you're free to go 14 home, but if you would call that number that's on your jury 15 badge, they'll tell you whether they need -- the telephone 16 number on your jury badge, they'll tell you whether to come in 17 or not, those people I've excused. Thank you very much. 18 (EXCUSED JURORS LEAVE THE COURTROOM) 19 JUDGE POTTER: Ladies and gentlemen, those of 20 you whose names were not called, there's going to be some more 21 voir dire that is being done by the attorneys, but some of it 22 is going to be individual and we have some people left over 23 from yesterday. So what I'm going to do as far as you-all are 24 concerned is take a recess until 9:00 tomorrow morning. What 25 you need to do is be over in that jury pool at 9:00 tomorrow 140 1 morning. 2 I'm going to give you the same admonition I've 3 given you before. Do not permit anybody to speak with you on 4 any topic connected with this case; any attempt to do so 5 should be reported to me. I want to emphasize that that 6 includes not only somebody that has some connection with the 7 case or some nefarious motive, but absolutely everybody, your 8 family, your spouse, your friends. Don't let them talk to you 9 about the case and don't you communicate with them about the 10 case. Also, it includes people communicating with you through 11 the media by either print media, reading the newspaper, or 12 electronic media by watching news reports. So with that -- 13 also, do not form or express opinions about the case. Do not 14 discuss the case among yourselves. With that admonition, for 15 you-all we stand in recess till 9:00 tomorrow morning. 16 JUROR NO. 150: Judge, I feel like I need to 17 talk to you for a minute. 18 JUDGE POTTER: I tell you what. Why don't the 19 rest of you go on. I'll see you at 9:00 tomorrow morning and, 20 sir, if you'll have a seat there for just a second. 21 (PROSPECTIVE JURORS REMAINING LEAVE THE 22 COURTROOM) 23 JUDGE POTTER: I'm sorry, sir. My eyes aren't 24 that great. 25 JUROR NO. 150: Wilson, 150. 141 1 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Wilson, why don't you step 2 around here. I will remind you, sir, you're still under oath. 3 Okay. What is it you wanted to -- 4 JUROR NO. 150: Kind of a loss of memory here, 5 but I got home yesterday, and my wife asked me if I was on a 6 case, and I said no, but possibly I could be on a Prozac case. 7 Then my wife said, she said, well, last month -- which it came 8 to me -- she said a good friend of ours was called on the 9 telephone on some kind of a survey, personal survey or 10 something like that, and they paid her $150 on a mock case of 11 this case. Now, who paid her, I don't know, because she was 12 paid in cash. 13 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. And did -- 14 JUROR NO. 150: And she discussed the case with 15 me. 16 JUDGE POTTER: Did she tell you what kind of 17 verdict they reached or what they said? 18 JUROR NO. 150: Yes. 19 JUDGE POTTER: And I don't want to know what it 20 is; I just want to know -- okay. I tell you what, Mr. Wilson. 21 Why don't you go with my sheriff for just a minute, and then I 22 may have to ask you to step back in. Okay? Again, obviously, 23 don't talk about the case. 24 JUROR NO. 150: No. I'm not. 25 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Thank you. 142 1 (JUROR NO. 150 LEAVES THE COURTROOM) 2 JUDGE POTTER: Does anybody have a motion 3 regarding Mr. Wilson? 4 MR. SMITH: I'd like to know the verdict first, 5 Your Honor. 6 MR. FREEMAN: You don't want to know the 7 verdict, I'm telling you that. 8 MR. SMITH: And I want to know who tried the 9 case for me, who played me, Your Honor. 10 JUDGE POTTER: Well, I mean, you know, I assume 11 from the reactions here that it's Lilly that had a focus 12 group. 13 MR. SMITH: Yes. We'd move to strike Mr. Wilson 14 for cause. 15 JUDGE POTTER: And particularly since the 16 neighbor told him what the outcome was. 17 MR. STOPHER: No. We don't have a problem with 18 that. 19 MR. FREEMAN: It was unanimous, by the way. 20 MR. SMITH: Who played me? 21 MR. FREEMAN: Clarence Darrow. 22 (JUROR NO. 150 REENTERS THE COURTROOM) 23 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Wilson, I'm going to excuse 24 you, sir. I will ask you that you not relate this 25 experience -- there's nothing wrong with what anybody did, all 143 1 right, it's just a way of each -- some lawyers sit around in 2 their office and try a case out on their partners or take it 3 home and try it out on their wives, or some people go out and 4 get people in the community and see what they think of it. 5 Okay? It's a way to test your arguments and have people look 6 at your charts and see if people understand them and stuff 7 like that. But I would ask that you not discuss this with 8 anybody, certainly no one down here at the jury pool, and just 9 really not discuss it with anybody till this is over because, 10 you know, she told you how it came out and that might 11 influence people. 12 JUROR NO. 150: Yes. I'm sorry about that, 13 Judge. 14 JUDGE POTTER: What's to be sorry about? 15 JUROR NO. 150: I should have remembered, to 16 tell you the truth. 17 JUDGE POTTER: Didn't I say in the beginning if 18 I ask you a question -- you're like me, when they spring 19 something on me, later you think, gee, I knew the answer to 20 that, and make me go back and give me the answer. Okay. 21 JUROR NO. 150: I'm sorry. 22 JUDGE POTTER: No. Nothing to apologize for. 23 If you'll call that number on your badge, the telephone 24 number, they'll let you know whether to come in tomorrow. 25 JUROR NO. 150: Okay. 144 1 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Thank you very much, sir. 2 (LUNCH RECESS) 3 JUDGE POTTER: I don't know what you-all had 4 envisioned. Individual voir dire in a civil case in Kentucky 5 is extremely rare. It's even rare in criminal cases, and my 6 thought was, and I don't know how we finally got maneuvered 7 around in this posture that this would be kind of a quick 8 thing to bring up kind of sensitive points, and I guess it 9 would key off the questionnaire, but I really would envision 10 it both people together, five minutes a witness. Some of them 11 may be faster, some of them might be a little longer, but I 12 wouldn't envision it as a one question leading into another 13 dealing with it. And so I think just calling the first 14 person, since you're the plaintiff, Mr. Smith, you'll go 15 first, keep the two or three minutes you think you can do. 16 MR. FREEMAN: Could we alternate, Judge, them go 17 first and Ed go second? 18 JUDGE POTTER: I don't have any problem with 19 that. We'll just see how it goes. If they bog down and 20 they're 15 minutes or something, we'll just have to come up 21 with a different game plan. Sandy, will you go out and get 22 Mr. -- we got all 33 of them from yesterday. The first 50, we 23 have 33 left out of the 50, and they're out there. 24 Mr. Adcock, I'll remind you you're under oath. 25 The attorneys want to ask you a few questions. Mr. Smith? 145 1 MR. SMITH: Mr. Adcock, I don't have any 2 questions of you, sir. 3 JUROR NO. 82: Okay. 4 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Stopher? 5 JUROR NO. 82: I knew it was too easy. 6 JUDGE POTTER: You're the first one so I think 7 by the time we go along a little bit, it may change. 8 MR. STOPHER: No, sir. I don't have any 9 questions for you, either. 10 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Adcock, I'm going to remind 11 you of my admonition that I've given you, and I'm going to ask 12 you to be back in the jury pool tomorrow at 1:00. 13 JUROR NO. 82: One. Thank you, sir. 14 MR. STOPHER: Oh, Mr. Adcock, I apologize, sir, 15 I'm a little slow here on this process. 16 MR. FREEMAN: His name is Columbo. 17 MR. STOPHER: Since you're the first one, I 18 notice, sir, on the form that you indicated that you own a -- 19 or someone owns a .357 -- 20 JUROR NO. 82: I do. 21 MR. STOPHER: And a .348 Smith & Wesson? 22 JUROR NO. 82: Yes, sir. 23 MR. STOPHER: Why do you -- what is the purpose 24 for owning them? Do you hunt or do you -- 25 JUROR NO. 82: I used to. I don't anymore. I 146 1 keep them in a lockbox in the basement. I just had them. I 2 used to like to target practice and I hunted, and I didn't 3 enjoy doing it anymore. And I have a little girl, so I put 4 them in the basement in a lockbox so that's why I -- I just 5 don't want to sell them. One of them was a gift. 6 MR. STOPHER: I understand. Okay. All right, 7 sir. 8 JUDGE POTTER: Thank you very much, sir. See 9 you tomorrow at 1:00 and remember the admonition. 10 JUROR NO. 82: Now I can go home? 11 JUDGE POTTER: Now you can go home. Richard 12 Bailey. 13 MS. ZETTLER: Can I make a suggestion? Can we 14 just establish whether or not either side has questions before 15 we bring them in? 16 MR. SMITH: I think it would be just about as 17 easy to run them in. 18 JUDGE POTTER: Yes. Have a seat, Mr. Bailey. 19 I'd remind you you're still under oath. These gentlemen may 20 have some questions for you. Mr. Stopher? That's right. 21 It's your... 22 MR. STOPHER: All right. Mr. Bailey, I noticed 23 that you were an engineer, sir? 24 JUROR NO. 169: Yes. Uh-huh. 25 MR. STOPHER: And prior to your retirement, what 147 1 sort of engineering did you do, sir? 2 JUROR NO. 169: Electrical. 3 MR. STOPHER: And was that with a firm here in 4 Louisville? 5 JUROR NO. 169: American Air Filter. 6 MR. STOPHER: American Air Filter. 7 JUROR NO. 169: I retired there in '86. 8 MR. STOPHER: All right, sir. 9 JUROR NO. 169: I worked contract engineering 10 for additional seven years, mostly at BF Goodrich. 11 MR. STOPHER: I think those are all the 12 questions I have, sir. 13 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Smith? 14 MR. SMITH: In your capacity as an engineer, Mr. 15 Bailey, did you design any products? 16 JUROR NO. 169: Circuits. American Air Filter 17 did fuel control systems for steel mills and cement plants and 18 the like, and I was a supervisor of electrical and instrument 19 design for those installations; we call it the air pollution 20 control system division. So it really wasn't a product, you 21 know. We were like engineer -- contract engineers that we 22 went out and bid on jobs, and if we won a bid, why, then, we 23 constructed the large bag collectors, wet scrubbers and 24 precipitators. 25 MR. SMITH: Has your training or experience 148 1 involved in statistical analysis of stress or product -- made 2 any analysis of products based on statistics? 3 JUROR NO. 169: No. Hunh-uh. Mostly electrical 4 design. 5 MR. SMITH: All right. 6 MR. STOPHER: Mr. Bailey, you did mention on the 7 questionnaire that you have read some newspaper articles 8 concerning the Standard Gravure case. 9 JUROR NO. 169: Oh, yeah. Sure. There was a 10 big article Sunday that I read. 11 MR. STOPHER: All right. Has this caused you to 12 form any conclusions about -- 13 JUROR NO. 169: Not really. You don't get 14 enough factual information. Just, you know, some words and so 15 forth. You don't really hear what's true, I don't think, 16 through newspapers or TV. 17 MR. STOPHER: Thank you, sir. 18 JUDGE POTTER: Thank you very much. I'm going to 19 remind you about my admonition about not letting anybody 20 communicate with you about the case. 21 JUROR NO. 169: Come back to the assembly room? 22 JUDGE POTTER: Assembly room; yes, sir. 23 JUROR NO. 169: Okay. 24 JUDGE POTTER: Baker is the next one. How are 25 you, Mr. Baker? 149 1 JUROR NO. 146: Just fine. 2 JUDGE POTTER: I remind you, sir, you're still 3 under oath. These gentlemen might like to ask you a question 4 or two. 5 MR. SMITH: Mr. Baker, as I understand it, 6 you're taking Prozac; is that right? 7 JUROR NO. 146: Right. Yes. 8 MR. SMITH: And is that for depression, sir? 9 JUROR NO. 146: They said it's a chemical 10 imbalance in the brain. I had dizziness and I was taking 11 medication for that, and my doctor seems to think this is 12 what's wrong, so he's tried me on this Prozac. 13 MR. SMITH: Has this chemical imbalance resulted 14 in any behavior or mood problems as far as you're concerned? 15 JUROR NO. 146: No. 16 MR. SMITH: It's just been limited to the 17 dizziness? 18 JUROR NO. 146: Right. 19 MR. SMITH: Has the Prozac made you less dizzy? 20 JUROR NO. 146: Yes. I believe it has. 21 MR. SMITH: Have you had any negative effects 22 from the Prozac at all? 23 JUROR NO. 146: No. I can't tell any 24 difference, to be honest about it, with the Prozac. I don't 25 see any difference one way or the other. 150 1 MR. SMITH: All right. In answer to Question 2 No. 26 with respect to whether or not Prozac was a substantial 3 factor in this shooting, your answer was, "My doctor told me 4 before putting me on the drug --" and I assume that's Prozac? 5 JUROR NO. 146: Yes. Right. 6 MR. SMITH: "-- this drug didn't have anything 7 to do with Wesbecker's shootings;" is that right? 8 JUROR NO. 146: Right. That's what he said. He 9 said you're probably scared, I'm sure, of putting you on this 10 drug. And I'd just been on it three weeks, I guess, and I was 11 kind of skeptical because you don't know what's going to 12 happen and that, and that's what he said, told me. He said 13 you won't see any change at all. And I reported back to him 14 here about a week ago. 15 MR. SMITH: And did you report that you had 16 experienced no change? 17 JUROR NO. 146: Yes. 18 MR. SMITH: And did your doctor, physician, just 19 advise spontaneously out of the blue this didn't have anything 20 to do with the Wesbecker shooting? 21 JUROR NO. 146: He just -- yeah, he just 22 mentioned that. 23 MR. SMITH: The Wesbecker shooting? 24 JUROR NO. 146: Yes. Right. 25 MR. SMITH: He did discuss this and the causal 151 1 relationship? 2 JUROR NO. 146: The only part of it he discussed 3 was what I wrote on there. 4 MR. SMITH: And is this a pretty accurate 5 rendition of what the doctor told you? 6 JUROR NO. 146: Yes. I'd say so. 7 MR. SMITH: And do you agree with him that at 8 least as far as in connection with the fact that you've 9 experienced no change since you've been on Prozac in your 10 physical condition? 11 JUROR NO. 146: Well, I have had no change, 12 right, so I don't know one way or the other. 13 MR. SMITH: Mr. Baker, obviously, the issue here 14 is whether or not you could put aside your experience with 15 Prozac and put aside what your physician told you and give 16 these parties equal chance. Do you think that because you've 17 had no change with Prozac and because your doctor has told you 18 specifically in this case that this didn't have anything to do 19 with the Wesbecker case, that we, plaintiffs, would be at a 20 disadvantage in using you as a juror in this case? 21 JUROR NO. 146: Not really, probably. I think 22 what you have to do is hear the facts of everything going on 23 to be able to determine one thing or another. It's like 24 penicillin. It will cure me; it will kill somebody else. 25 I've got an uncle it will kill if he takes it. It does 152 1 wonders for me, so... 2 MR. SMITH: I understand that. But do you think 3 you can view your experience with Prozac in looking at this 4 evidence? Obviously, we all have to be products of our own 5 experience. 6 JUROR NO. 146: Right. 7 MR. SMITH: And do you think that will have an 8 influence on you? 9 JUROR NO. 146: I wouldn't think so. I would 10 think that I would have to hear all the facts and everything 11 in order to make a decision one way or the other, be it good 12 or bad. 13 MR. SMITH: In connection with Answer No. 6, you 14 said that you do not think that pharmaceutical companies know 15 all the risks involved with a product; is that right? 16 JUROR NO. 146: Yes. I think there's drugs and 17 stuff out there that nobody knows the answers to. 18 MR. SMITH: Well, do you think that a 19 manufacturer of pharmaceuticals has a duty to investigate risk 20 in connection with a product? 21 JUROR NO. 146: I'm sure they do, to the best of 22 their knowledge. 23 MR. SMITH: Do you have a preconceived idea that 24 they do adequately investigate the risk involved in their 25 products? 153 1 JUROR NO. 146: Well, we have the federal 2 government involved in all this, so I would presume that they 3 sort of look into all this stuff. 4 MR. SMITH: You are starting this case with the 5 presumption that pharmaceutical manufacturers look into the 6 risk involved with a product and that this is supported by the 7 FDA doing the same thing; is that right? 8 JUROR NO. 146: I would think that they do a 9 fairly decent job on this stuff, supposedly. 10 MR. SMITH: And you think they do an adequate 11 job? And that's a preconceived idea you have? 12 JUROR NO. 146: Right. 13 MR. SMITH: What if you were to hear evidence 14 that Prozac was approved by the FDA? Would that make you feel 15 that this product is safe in connection with the risk involved 16 with this product? 17 JUROR NO. 146: I think any product on the 18 market can do different things to different people. I'd have 19 to hear evidence and stuff to know, to be able to make that 20 kind of decision. 21 MR. SMITH: Do you think a pharmaceutical 22 manufacturer should advise doctors or the Food and Drug 23 Administration of risks they know of with a product? 24 JUROR NO. 146: Yes. I think they should. My 25 doctor said there was no risk involved. He convinced me. 154 1 That's the reason I took it. 2 MR. SMITH: You're convinced that Prozac doesn't 3 present any risk? 4 JUROR NO. 146: Not to me it doesn't. 5 MR. SMITH: Would you think that would hold to 6 everybody? 7 JUROR NO. 146: Conform to everybody? Oh, I'm 8 sure it wouldn't. I don't know. 9 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Stopher? 10 MR. STOPHER: No questions, Judge. 11 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Baker, I'm going to remind 12 you of my admonition about letting anybody communicate with 13 you on this case, and we'll stand in recess as far as you're 14 concerned until 1:00 tomorrow afternoon. Go back to the jury 15 pool. You don't have to come in till 1:00. Thank you very 16 much, sir. 17 MR. SMITH: We would move to strike Mr. Baker. 18 JUDGE POTTER: Can I ask you to wait outside 19 just one minute? We got too far ahead of ourselves. 20 What do you say, Mr. Stopher? This is his own 21 personal physician that specifically said to him, referring to 22 this case, that there's nothing -- no connection? 23 MR. STOPHER: Judge, he said the same things 24 that a person would have said that had not taken the drug. He 25 said that there's nothing about this experience that's going 155 1 to make him prejudge this case. That all he knows is that 2 it's working for him, but that he's got an open mind about it. 3 On all of these questions he always indicated complete 4 impartiality. This is a case in which this gentleman has had 5 an experience that he says, "Frankly, I can't tell any 6 difference." It hasn't eliminated his dizziness, as I 7 understand it, but at the same time it hasn't influenced him 8 to make up his mind on the drug one way or the other. He 9 never, ever indicated that he had a preconceived idea about 10 anything. 11 JUDGE POTTER: What you say is true about what 12 he said; however, I feel that a person who is taking the drug 13 and his doctor feels that he needs to comfort him about it 14 enough to describe it vis-a-vis this case, that person has had 15 a fixed idea in their mind for -- what did he say -- February 16 or something, six or eight months whom a person obviously 17 respects because it's his doctor. I think that gives him a 18 preconceived idea that the normal public doesn't have, so I'm 19 going to grant the motion to strike Mr. Baker. 20 No. 199. My Xerox is not too good. You're Mr. 21 Bonner? 22 JUROR NO. 199: Yes, sir. Would you have a 23 seat, Mr. Bonner. I'll remind you you're still under oath. 24 These gentlemen may have some questions for you. 25 MR. STOPHER: Mr. Bonner, my name is Ed Stopher. 156 1 I noticed on the questionnaire on No. 31 that you indicated 2 that you had majored in criminal law -- 3 JUROR NO. 199: Yes, sir. 4 MR. STOPHER: -- for two years. Have you had 5 any experience in connection with law enforcement or -- 6 JUROR NO. 199: No, sir. 7 MR. STOPHER: -- the use of criminal law? 8 JUROR NO. 199: I applied for a criminal -- I 9 mean, I can't think of it now, corrections officer, but I'm 10 still going through the process right now. 11 MR. STOPHER: Okay. There's going to be a great 12 deal of testimony in this case about the science of 13 criminology and the factors that relate to crimes, 14 particularly homicide. Have you had any particular training 15 with regard to that in connection with criminal law? 16 JUROR NO. 199: No, sir. 17 MR. STOPHER: Your criminal law was mainly on 18 the legal aspects as compared to -- 19 JUROR NO. 199: Right. 20 MR. STOPHER: -- the underlying criminal 21 behavior? 22 JUROR NO. 199: Right. 23 MR. STOPHER: You indicated here, sir, on No. 24 28, when it asked if you had ever been involved in a civil 25 lawsuit, and you indicated that you didn't know? 157 1 JUROR NO. 199: No. I haven't been in no 2 lawsuit but I was -- next month I'm going to be testifying for 3 a friend. 4 MR. STOPHER: Is that in connection with another 5 case of some sort? 6 JUROR NO. 199: Yes. 7 MR. STOPHER: What does that involve? 8 JUROR NO. 199: He got hurt playing football, 9 so, I mean, I'm testifying for him on that. 10 MR. STOPHER: Is it a suit against a -- 11 JUROR NO. 199: Board of Education. 12 MR. STOPHER: Board of Education? 13 JUROR NO. 199: Yes. 14 MR. STOPHER: Was he seriously injured in that? 15 JUROR NO. 199: Yes. 16 MR. STOPHER: Is he paralyzed? 17 JUROR NO. 199: No. I mean, it's not that bad. 18 Almost had to get amputated, but they saved it. 19 MR. STOPHER: It's a bad leg injury? 20 JUROR NO. 199: Yes. 21 MR. STOPHER: I take it that you weren't playing 22 with him? 23 JUROR NO. 199: Yes. I was on the team, too. 24 MR. STOPHER: You were on the team, also. And 25 is the allegation that it was unsafe supervision of the 158 1 football -- 2 JUROR NO. 199: Yes. 3 MR. STOPHER: Was it in practice or in a game, 4 sir? 5 JUROR NO. 199: In a game. 6 MR. STOPHER: In a game. Do you think the fact 7 that you're involved in the issue of safety when that safety 8 is under the control of someone else might make you a little 9 more suspicious of other situations in which safety is in the 10 hands of another party? 11 JUROR NO. 199: I don't think so. 12 MR. STOPHER: You think you can hear the 13 evidence and decide the case fairly without taking into 14 account the fact that your friend is making this claim and you 15 support him in that? 16 JUROR NO. 199: Yes. 17 MR. STOPHER: It's not an equipment-type case? 18 JUROR NO. 199: No. 19 MR. STOPHER: Okay. All right. And I take it, 20 sir, that you are not employed now? 21 JUROR NO. 199: No, not right now I'm not. 22 MR. STOPHER: Okay. You were last employed? 23 JUROR NO. 199: In 7-24. 24 MR. STOPHER: And what did you do, sir? 25 JUROR NO. 199: Auto detailing at Bill Collins 159 1 Ford. 2 MR. STOPHER: Okay. That's the one out -- 3 JUROR NO. 199: On Bardstown Road. 4 MR. STOPHER: Bardstown Road. Okay. All right, 5 sir. I think that's all I have, sir. 6 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Smith? 7 MR. SMITH: What other employment have you had, 8 Mr. Bonner? 9 JUROR NO. 199: I delivered pizza when I was in 10 college, just working at Kroger's, laborer jobs. 11 MR. SMITH: Did you go to any training camps to 12 try out for any pro ball teams? 13 JUROR NO. 199: No, sir. I wish I did. 14 MR. SMITH: Thank you, Mr. Bonner. 15 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Bonner, I'm going to remind 16 you of the admonition about not letting anybody communicate 17 with you on this case, and that includes the media. As far as 18 you're concerned, I'm going to stand in recess till 1:00 19 tomorrow afternoon. If you would just be over in the jury 20 pool at 1:00. 21 JUROR NO. 199: Okay. All right. 22 JUDGE POTTER: Thank you very much, sir. Ms. 23 Borah. 24 Would you have a seat, Ms. Borah, and I'll 25 remind you you're still under oath, ma'am. The attorneys may 160 1 wish to ask you a few questions. 2 MR. SMITH: Ms. Borah, you've indicated you have 3 an opinion concerning whether or not pharmaceutical companies 4 do an adequate or inadequate job in connection with advising 5 of the risk of their products? 6 JUROR NO. 25: I think they do a good job. 7 MR. SMITH: You said yes here, and I thought 8 that's probably what you meant to say, but you think it's 9 adequate? 10 JUROR NO. 25: Yes, sir. 11 MR. SMITH: You also say that the Food and Drug 12 Administration, in your judgment, does a good job in 13 connection with monitoring and protecting consumer health and 14 safety; is that right? 15 JUROR NO. 25: Yes, sir. 16 MR. SMITH: Do you have any first-hand knowledge 17 or any specific information on the Food and Drug 18 Administration, how they do their work? 19 JUROR NO. 25: No. Just what I read and hear. 20 MR. SMITH: What have you read or heard in 21 connection with the adequacy of the FDA? 22 JUROR NO. 25: Well, FDA, they won't allow 23 certain medicines, like overseas medicines coming in; they 24 don't allow that for so long and all that. 25 MR. SMITH: And anything else that you've heard 161 1 about the Food and Drug Administration? 2 JUROR NO. 25: Nothing. No. 3 MR. SMITH: Are you of the opinion that the Food 4 and Drug Administration tests pharmaceutical products? 5 JUROR NO. 25: Yes, I do. 6 MR. SMITH: Are you of the opinion that the Food 7 and Drug Administration tested Prozac? 8 JUROR NO. 25: Yes. 9 MR. SMITH: Would you be surprised to learn that 10 the FDA did not test Prozac in this case? 11 JUROR NO. 25: Yes, I would. 12 MR. SMITH: Would that change your opinion of 13 the Food and Drug Administration or FDA approval? 14 JUROR NO. 25: I don't think so. 15 MR. SMITH: Do you give Prozac in this case a 16 presumption of safety because it was approved by the FDA? 17 JUROR NO. 25: As far as I know, I'd say. 18 MR. SMITH: And do you think that because the 19 FDA has approved safety that -- Prozac as being safe that 20 probably it didn't have anything to do with this shooting on 21 September 14th, 1989? 22 JUROR NO. 25: Yes, I do. Because I have worked 23 at the drugstore and I know how much Prozac is prescribed and 24 what goes out. 25 MR. SMITH: And so you would be of the opinion 162 1 that Prozac is safe, that it's safe in this case, and it 2 didn't have anything to do with Mr. Wesbecker's actions? 3 JUROR NO. 25: That's right. 4 MR. SMITH: And have you held that opinion for 5 some time? 6 JUROR NO. 25: No, not really. I've just gone 7 by what other people that's taken it. 8 MR. SMITH: So you do have a judgment here in 9 this case that Prozac did not cause -- 10 JUROR NO. 25: I don't think it did; no, sir. 11 MR. SMITH: -- Mr. Wesbecker to do these acts? 12 JUROR NO. 25: No. I don't think so. 13 MR. SMITH: All right. Pass the Witness. 14 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Stopher? 15 MR. STOPHER: No questions, Your Honor. 16 JUDGE POTTER: Ms. Borah, I'm going to remind 17 you again of the admonition about not talking about this case 18 with anyone or letting anybody communicate with you, including 19 the newspapers. From your point of view, I'm going to stand 20 in recess until 1:00 tomorrow afternoon. If you will be over 21 in the assembly room at 1:00. Thank you, ma'am. 22 JUROR NO. 25: Thank you. 23 MR. SMITH: We move to strike Ms. Borah, Your 24 Honor, in that she already has a preconceived idea that Prozac 25 didn't have anything to do with Mr. Wesbecker's actions on 163 1 September 14th, 1989; that she presumes that the FDA approval 2 of this drug is conclusive on the issue of the drug's safety 3 and -- 4 MR. FREEMAN: She said presumptive, I think. 5 JUDGE POTTER: My memory of her testimony would 6 be that she did not say FDA was conclusive. 7 MR. SMITH: Well, she said her opinion was 8 conclusive on that, that Prozac had nothing to do with Mr. 9 Wesbecker's actions; that's the real basis for my opinion. 10 She has a preconceived idea as to how this case should come 11 out, Your Honor. 12 MR. STOPHER: Judge, she was never asked the 13 question would her ideas make it impossible for her to decide 14 the case based on the facts and on the law. We can get these 15 people boxed into a corner with cross-examination and get them 16 to say, well, you know, you do have some opinion about 17 something in this case, therefore, you're stricken for cause. 18 I viewed the process here of interviewing individual jurors to 19 allow us to expand on the questionnaire, but not to 20 cross-examine these people and get them into a box to where 21 they disqualify themselves without knowing what the rules 22 really are. But I don't think she ever indicated that in any 23 way she had her mind made up about the case. She's got some 24 ideas about the FDA. I'd be surprised if you didn't find any 25 adult that could read or write that didn't have some idea 164 1 about the FDA. 2 JUDGE POTTER: I'm going to deny the motion to 3 strike Ms. Borah. The use of it, I think a daughter-in-law is 4 far enough away to where I really haven't had to face the 5 issue yet of whether just using it will disqualify you. My 6 interpretation of her testimony was, as far as she knew, the 7 government was functioning the way it's supposed to function. 8 I think every juror would say the FDA is supposed to put out 9 drugs that are -- only let drugs get out that are safe; she 10 has not heard any evidence to the contrary. And just the fact 11 that she belives the FDA does an adequate job or a good job, I 12 don't think disqualifies her. 13 MR. SMITH: Maybe I need some guidance here. My 14 understanding is that she said she had a preconceived idea 15 that Prozac had nothing to do with Joseph Wesbecker's actions. 16 Maybe I misheard her or maybe there's a different standard in 17 Kentucky. Maybe I should have gone further with her in my 18 questioning, but I need some guidance. I thought once she 19 said that, it would be conclusive that she could not be a fair 20 and impartial juror. 21 And, frankly, I didn't even touch on the 22 daughter's relationship to Prozac, nor did I touch on the 23 issue of the pharmacy and her dispensing. She said that they 24 dispensed so much Prozac in the pharmacy that it must be safe. 25 But I didn't go to those issues and develop those issues 165 1 because I was of the judgment that her statement was that she 2 had a preconceived idea that this didn't contribute to 3 Wesbecker's actions. I thought we were looking for people 4 that had no preconceived idea. 5 JUDGE POTTER: I don't mean -- and maybe I need 6 to, you know, look up some cases. And I don't want to argue 7 with you, but I'm under the impression that just because a 8 juror has an opinion on a topic does not mean they're 9 automatically disqualified. I think -- to take it -- and I'm 10 not saying this is your case -- if you had a case where part 11 of proving your case was that water runs uphill, you'd get a 12 jury -- everybody would be excluded except people who really 13 strongly believed that we're crazy because everybody believes 14 water runs downhill. I'm not saying that's your case, but 15 you've taken something that 90 percent of the United States 16 believes that the government kind of functions okay, and I 17 don't see that -- the answer to that as a litmus paper test. 18 Somebody has some real strong feelings and something beyond 19 that that they couldn't put aside and listen to the evidence, 20 that might disqualify, but just the fact that they have an 21 opinion on something that's going to be at issue in this trial 22 I don't think disqualifies them. 23 MR. SMITH: Then if a juror came in and 24 expressed the opinion that he thought that Prozac was the 25 cause of Mr. Wesbecker's conduct, would that juror be 166 1 sufficient to serve? 2 JUDGE POTTER: Well, I guess if I'm going to be 3 consistent, unless it's something that his doctor has told him 4 and he's read a lot about it. If it's just, well, you know, I 5 kind of think he took it two weeks before and then it 6 happened, it probably does have something to do with it. If 7 I'm going to be consistent, I'd have to leave him on. 8 MS. ZETTLER: She didn't say, Your Honor -- at 9 least I didn't hear her say -- the reason she had her 10 preconceived notion was because of the FDA approval but on her 11 work in the pharmacy and the number of prescriptions that had 12 been filled at the pharmacy. 13 JUDGE POTTER: I may have gotten this lady 14 wrong. And when you get that thing typed up and show it to 15 me, I may change my mind. 16 MR. SMITH: Could we potentially have an 17 opportunity to discuss this with this witness a little 18 further? 19 JUDGE POTTER: We'll just take that up when we 20 get to it. 21 (OFF THE RECORD) 22 JUDGE POTTER: You're Ms. Burton? 23 JUROR NO. 141: Uh-huh. 24 MR. SMITH: May I remind you you're still under 25 oath, ma'am. Some of these attorneys may have a question for 167 1 you. Mr. Stopher. 2 MR. STOPHER: Ms. Burton, my name is Ed Stopher. 3 I noticed on the questionnaire about the FDA that you answered 4 that in some areas the FDA is doing a good job and in other 5 areas not so good. Can you tell me -- 6 JUROR NO. 141: The reason I answered it that 7 way because some of the information I've heard on TV about 8 some of the pharmacists making up the medication have made 9 errors and stuff, and that's just from the news media. 10 MR. STOPHER: In other words, some of the 11 pharmacists at the drugstores when they mix the compounds they 12 don't mix them correctly or give the wrong doses and that sort 13 of thing? 14 JUROR NO. 141: Yeah. And I saw that on TV. 15 That's where I got that information from. 16 MR. STOPHER: And that's the only information 17 that you have about that? 18 JUROR NO. 141: Yeah. 19 MR. STOPHER: I also noticed that in answer to 20 Question No. 23, I think it was about firearms or guns, you 21 indicated, "Yes, a gun, but I don't know the type." I'm not 22 sure I would, either, but is it your gun, ma'am? 23 JUROR NO. 141: No. It's my husband's, but I do 24 know what it is now because I asked him. It's a magnum .44. 25 I asked him that last night since I had to answer that one. 168 1 MR. STOPHER: Does he use that for hunting or 2 for self protection, or is it just something that he 3 inherited? 4 JUROR NO. 141: Every now and then he goes out 5 with a friend and they shoot out in the woods or the country. 6 He's got a friend that owns a farm and he goes out there 7 sometimes and shoots with a gun. 8 MR. STOPHER: Just target shooting? 9 JUROR NO. 141: Yeah. And that's just every now 10 and then. It's not a regular everyday thing. 11 MR. STOPHER: Okay. And if I -- you wrote in on 12 your occupation something here that is so small that I 13 couldn't really read it. It looks like to me that it says -- 14 it's City of Louisville? 15 JUROR NO. 141: City of Louisville Solid Waste 16 Management and Services. 17 MR. STOPHER: So you are an employee then of the 18 City? 19 JUROR NO. 141: Of Louisville. But our 20 department -- 21 MR. STOPHER: I apologize. I saw city and then 22 I saw solid waste and then I didn't connect up Louisville. I 23 understand. 24 Ms. Burton, you -- also your husband is 25 apparently a social worker? 169 1 JUROR NO. 141: Right. 2 MR. STOPHER: There will be some social workers 3 who will probably testify in this case. Do you know 4 colleagues of your husband? 5 JUROR NO. 141: A few. 6 MR. STOPHER: People with Seven Counties and 7 that group? 8 JUROR NO. 141: Seven Counties, I'm not too 9 sure. Basically, the people that works for the Cabinet of 10 Human Resources, which would be over in the L&N Building. 11 MR. STOPHER: The old L&N Building? 12 JUROR NO. 141: Uh-huh. On Broadway. 13 MR. STOPHER: Okay. I think those are all the 14 questions I have, Ms. Burton. 15 MR. SMITH: Hi, Ms. Burton. I'm Paul Smith. I 16 represent the plaintiffs in this case. When did your husband 17 receive his degree in sociology or psychology, or was it a 18 combination major? 19 JUROR NO. 141: I think it's a combination. 20 MR. SMITH: When and where did he receive that 21 degree? 22 JUROR NO. 141: University of Louisville. 23 MR. SMITH: Has it been some time? 24 JUROR NO. 141: Yeah. Back in, I think, the 25 '70s. I don't know the exact year. 170 1 MR. SMITH: And has he ever practiced either 2 psychology or sociology as a private practice? 3 JUROR NO. 141: Not in a private practice. He's 4 always just been a social worker. 5 MR. SMITH: And he works for the county -- 6 JUROR NO. 141: Cabinet of Human Resources. 7 MR. SMITH: Okay. I noticed, Ms. Burton, that 8 in answer to Question No. 6 about pharmaceutical companies 9 advising of risks in connection with their products, you said, 10 "I believe most are doing a good job in communicating about 11 the risk. It's usually written on your medicine." 12 JUROR NO. 141: And the reason why I was 13 answering it that way, because most of the time when I get a 14 prescription drug it usually has on there to take with food or 15 without, and that's from the standpoint that I was looking at 16 that they communicate pretty good. And if you go in and talk 17 to the pharmacist about the medication, he usually tells you 18 or gives you opinions about what you should or shouldn't do. 19 MR. SMITH: Have you ever talked to a pharmacist 20 about where he gets his information about a drug? 21 JUROR NO. 141: No. 22 MR. SMITH: Have you ever talked to a pharmacist 23 about where they get that information that they type on the 24 label of your medicines? 25 JUROR NO. 141: No. 171 1 MR. SMITH: What's your assumption as to where 2 they get that information? 3 JUROR NO. 141: I really hadn't thought about it 4 one way or the other. 5 MR. SMITH: Do you have an opinion, Ms. Burton, 6 in this case, in connection with whether or not Prozac had 7 anything to do with Mr. Wesbecker's actions on September 14th, 8 1989, in injuring my clients? 9 JUROR NO. 141: That, I don't know that much 10 about Prozac to really give a definite opinion. Only thing I 11 can go by is what I read in the newspaper. 12 MR. SMITH: Did you form any opinion by what you 13 read in the newspaper? 14 JUROR NO. 141: Well, it's been so long ago that 15 that happened that I really can't say that I formed one for or 16 against, either way. But I don't really know that much about 17 the medication to really justify that, yes, that actually 18 caused him to do that, what he did. 19 MR. SMITH: All right. Do you have any reason 20 to believe that you might not -- that you might not be a fair 21 and adequate juror in this case, Ms. Burton? 22 JUROR NO. 141: I don't know. I'm kind of 23 having mixed feelings. 24 MR. SMITH: I guess this is the time, with Your 25 Honor's permission, to advise us of that. 172 1 JUDGE POTTER: Go ahead, ma'am, if you feel 2 there's something that we ought to know about whether you can 3 sit on this case. 4 JUROR NO. 141: I don't know. I don't have any 5 pros or cons. Only thing that I was thinking about is the 6 length of time of being away from work. That would be about 7 it. 8 MR. SMITH: I'm talking about in connection with 9 facts involving this case. 10 JUROR NO. 141: Facts involved in the case, no, 11 I don't think I would. 12 JUDGE POTTER: Ms. Burton, I'm going to excuse 13 you. I'm going to remind you of the admonition about talking 14 to other people about the case or watching, seeing something 15 on TV or reading about it. And, as far as you're concerned, 16 I'm going to stand in recess till 1:00 tomorrow afternoon, if 17 you will be over in the jury assembly area where you started 18 out. 19 JUROR NO. 141: Okay. 1:00 tomorrow. 20 JUDGE POTTER: 1:00 tomorrow. 21 You're Ms. Brown? 22 JUROR NO. 108: Yes, sir. 23 JUDGE POTTER: How are you, ma'am? 24 JUROR NO. 108: Fine. 25 JUDGE POTTER: I'm going to remind you you're 173 1 still under oath, and these gentlemen may have some questions 2 for you. Okay? Mr. Smith. 3 MR. SMITH: Ms. Brown, my name is Paul Smith and 4 I represent the plaintiffs in this case, and I just had a 5 couple of questions about your questionnaire. In answer to 6 No. 6 concerning pharmaceutical companies advising of the risk 7 with their products, you say, "I think they do a good job in 8 warning us of the risk of their products." And my question to 9 you is: On what do you base that judgment? 10 JUROR NO. 108: Well, I just go by my personal 11 prescriptions and all, it usually has a little warning label 12 on it telling me it may cause drowsiness or, you know, that 13 type of thing. 14 MR. SMITH: Are you of the judgment that that 15 information was supplied to the pharmacist by the product 16 manufacturer or is that something that the doctor or 17 pharmacist does? 18 JUROR NO. 108: I really don't know. I just 19 know the label is always there. 20 MR. SMITH: All right. Let me see if there's 21 anything else. I've got too many notes here. I think that's 22 all I have, Ms. Brown. Thank you. 23 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Stopher. 24 MR. STOPHER: Ms. Brown, my name is Ed Stopher. 25 I had only one or two questions. On No. 9, the question was: 174 1 "Do you think that a prescription drug for treating depression 2 should be found 100-percent safe before being sold to the 3 public," and you answered yes? 4 JUROR NO. 108: Yes. 5 MR. STOPHER: Do you mean by that that there 6 should be no side effects? 7 JUROR NO. 108: Well, I think there should be 8 enough testing to know if it's safe or not before it's sold. 9 MR. STOPHER: Okay. In other words, it would be 10 safe if the side effects were reasonably identifiable and 11 included? 12 JUROR NO. 108: Yes. 13 MR. STOPHER: Okay. You didn't mean by that 14 that it should be free of all side effects no matter what you 15 did with it? 16 JUROR NO. 108: No, sir. I think different 17 medication may affect different people in different ways. I 18 mean, I'm allergic to penicillin and you may not be. 19 MR. STOPHER: That's a serious allergy. 20 JUROR NO. 108: Right. 21 MR. STOPHER: Ms. Brown, on your occupation you 22 listed that -- and I think it says Louisville Tile or File? 23 JUROR NO. 108: It's Tile. 24 MR. STOPHER: And you're involved with sales? 25 JUROR NO. 108: Sales. I sell Jacuzzi whirlpool 175 1 tubs. 2 MR. STOPHER: Sounds fun. I think everybody 3 wants to be on your mailing list. Thanks. That's all I have. 4 JUROR NO. 108: I'll sell them. 5 JUDGE POTTER: Ms. Brown, I'm going to remind 6 you about my admonition about letting anybody communicate with 7 you about this case; that also includes your family and the 8 newspaper and whatnot. And, as far as you're concerned, we're 9 in recess till 1:00 tomorrow afternoon, if you'll just be over 10 in the jury assembly area at 1:00. 11 JUROR NO. 108: Okay. 12 JUDGE POTTER: Thank you very much, ma'am. 13 Hi, Ms. Coffey, you want to take a seat. I'll 14 remind you you're still under oath. These gentlemen may have 15 some questions for you. 16 MR. STOPHER: Hi, Ms. Coffey. My name is Ed 17 Stopher. I wanted to ask you a couple of things about the 18 questionnaire that you filled out. There was a Question No. 9 19 that said that: "Do you think that a prescription drug for 20 treating depression should be found 100-percent safe before 21 being sold to the public," and you answered yes? 22 JUROR NO. 149: Yes. 23 MR. STOPHER: Does that mean that you would want 24 the drug to have absolutely no side effects? 25 JUROR NO. 149: Uh-huh. 176 1 MR. STOPHER: And that everybody should have a 2 perfect response to the drug all the time? 3 JUROR NO. 149: Yes. 4 MR. STOPHER: That nobody should ever have an 5 inadequate or different response than anybody else? 6 JUROR NO. 149: No. Hunh-uh. Should be... 7 MR. STOPHER: You don't believe that people 8 react differently to drugs at different times? 9 JUROR NO. 149: They might. I don't know. I'm 10 not a physician. 11 MR. STOPHER: Okay. Such as penicillin? 12 JUROR NO. 149: Yes. They do have allergic 13 reaction, yes. 14 MR. STOPHER: Do you think penicillin is 15 therefore unsafe? 16 JUROR NO. 149: For some people. 17 MR. STOPHER: For some people, but not unsafe 18 generally in the marketplace? 19 JUROR NO. 149: No. 20 MR. STOPHER: Ms. Coffey, you also mentioned on 21 Question No. 28 that you had been involved in a civil case as 22 a defendant. What was that about? 23 JUROR NO. 149: Car accident. 24 MR. STOPHER: Car accident? Were you the person 25 that was sued? 177 1 JUROR NO. 149: Yes. Uh-huh. 2 MR. FREEMAN: She was the defendant. 3 MR. STOPHER: You were the defendant; right? 4 JUROR NO. 149: Uh-huh. Yes, sir. 5 MR. STOPHER: Did that go to trial, Ms. Coffey? 6 JUROR NO. 149: No. It didn't go to trial. It 7 went to the courtroom. Well, I don't know. It went to the 8 courtroom in front of the judge and all that. That was it. 9 MR. STOPHER: Ms. Coffey, in connection with 10 this case there's an allegation that Mr. Wesbecker had a 11 reaction to Prozac and that it caused him to go on a shooting 12 spree at Standard Gravure. Do you have an opinion about that? 13 JUROR NO. 149: Yeah, I do. 14 MR. STOPHER: What is your opinion about that? 15 JUROR NO. 149: I think he was already gone 16 before he started taking medication. 17 MR. STOPHER: In connection with that opinion, 18 can you still listen to the evidence and decide the case based 19 on what you hear as evidence and under the instructions of the 20 Court? 21 JUROR NO. 149: I could, but I don't want to. 22 MR. STOPHER: You don't want to sit in this 23 case? 24 JUROR NO. 149: No. I don't want to. 25 MR. STOPHER: Why don't you want to sit? 178 1 JUROR NO. 149: Because it would take too long, 2 six to eight weeks. See, I've got children, 14, 9 and 10 3 years of age. 4 MR. STOPHER: I notice that on your -- the 5 little information sheet that you filled out earlier, do you 6 take care of those kids normally? 7 JUROR NO. 149: Yes, I do. I work first shift 8 and my husband works 3 to 11, and then they're home, like now, 9 alone. 10 MR. STOPHER: Uh-oh. 11 JUROR NO. 149: Yes. 12 MR. STOPHER: Is there anybody else that can 13 watch after your kids while you sit here? 14 JUROR NO. 149: Yes, they could, but I'd prefer 15 to be there. 16 MR. STOPHER: I understand. Okay. But it could 17 be, I guess, worked out? 18 JUROR NO. 149: Yeah. Yeah. 19 MR. STOPHER: Okay. All right. I think that's 20 all I have. 21 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Smith. 22 MR. SMITH: Ms. Coffey, this opinion that you've 23 expressed that Mr. Wesbecker was already gone before the 24 shooting and before he started taking the medication, I would 25 assume you've held that opinion for some time? 179 1 JUROR NO. 149: No -- no, but I just -- 2 MR. SMITH: When did you come to that opinion? 3 JUROR NO. 149: Last night. 4 MR. SMITH: Last night? 5 JUROR NO. 149: Uh-huh. Yeah, well... 6 MR. SMITH: And do you -- do you think that 7 would affect your judgment here as a juror here in this case 8 to render a fair and impartial verdict? 9 JUROR NO. 149: Well -- 10 MR. SMITH: That's what we've got to know. 11 JUROR NO. 149: Okay. Well, I do. I feel that 12 he was already -- he was gone, so I think, yeah, it would 13 affect my -- uh-huh, yes. 14 MR. SMITH: And you think that would influence 15 your verdict? 16 JUROR NO. 149: Yes. Uh-huh. 17 MR. SMITH: And that you would not start both 18 sides off at the same place? 19 JUROR NO. 149: Right. That's right. Uh-huh. 20 Yes. 21 MR. SMITH: You think you would be prejudiced? 22 JUROR NO. 149: Yes, I would. I would be 23 prejudiced. Yes. I think I would be. 24 MR. SMITH: And that that would influence your 25 verdict in this case? 180 1 JUROR NO. 149: Yes, it would. 2 MR. SMITH: That's all I have. 3 JUDGE POTTER: Ms. Coffey, I'm going to excuse 4 you till 1:00 tomorrow afternoon. Will you be over at the 5 jury pool assembly area where you started out? I also give 6 you the same admonition. Do not let anybody communicate with 7 you about this case and do not form any more opinions about 8 the case until it is finally submitted to you. Okay? 9 JUROR NO. 149: Okay. 10 JUDGE POTTER: Thank you. 11 (OFF THE RECORD) 12 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Do you have any motions, 13 Mr. Smith? 14 MR. SMITH: Yes. I move to strike Ms. Coffey 15 based on the fact that she said her prejudice -- 16 JUDGE POTTER: She halfway through this decided 17 she was going to get herself out of this one way or the other. 18 MR. STOPHER: I agree, Judge. 19 MR. SMITH: Her eyes appeared to me that she was 20 under the influence of something. 21 JUDGE POTTER: You're Ms. Davis-Spalding? 22 JUROR NO. 189: Right. 23 JUDGE POTTER: Ma'am, I remind you you're still 24 under oath. These gentlemen may have some questions for you. 25 Mr. Smith? 181 1 MR. SMITH: Ms. Spalding, my name is Paul Smith, 2 and I represent the plaintiffs in this case. 3 JUROR NO. 189: I'm glad to meet you. 4 MR. SMITH: Nice to meet you. As I understand 5 it -- they didn't give you much space to write in these juror 6 information sheets -- you're with the Louisville & Jefferson 7 County C.A.A.? 8 JUROR NO. 189: Yes. Community Action Agency. 9 MR. SMITH: What do they do? 10 JUROR NO. 189: We're a federally funded city/ 11 county government agency. Some of the things that we do, we 12 work for low-income persons. 13 MR. SMITH: And how long have you been in that 14 job? 15 JUROR NO. 189: Since 1971. 16 MR. SMITH: And your education is you have some 17 college? 18 JUROR NO. 189: Yes. 19 MR. SMITH: How much college? 20 JUROR NO. 189: To round it out, about two and a 21 half years, in different courses, public speaking and things 22 of that nature. 23 MR. SMITH: Do you have any -- did you take any 24 courses in psychology, psychiatry, sociology? 25 JUROR NO. 189: Sociology, psychology. 182 1 MR. SMITH: Do you think you have any more 2 specialized knowledge about psychological factors in this case 3 than anybody else? 4 JUROR NO. 189: No. No, I failed that course. 5 MR. STOPHER: It had to come out. 6 JUROR NO. 189: It was at JCC. Bam. 7 MR. SMITH: It says here that you're like an 8 Administrator III with this agency? 9 JUROR NO. 189: That's right. 10 MR. SMITH: What does that mean? 11 JUROR NO. 189: That means that I'm over special 12 programs, such as the summer lunch program that we feed young 13 people lunch during the summer; that runs from June to August. 14 I hire the staff and write the proposal, supervise the 15 complete operation of that. The other programs, I supervise 16 11 other staff persons that work throughout the city and the 17 county, such as Shively, Newburg, Park DuValle, Russell area, 18 Manley area. And we do things as far as commodities, garden 19 seeds, transportation for seniors, deliver commodities from 20 Rowan Street to our seniors, we have a lifeline program. So 21 my job is to supervise them, do the work when they're not 22 there and answer to the executive director. 23 MR. SMITH: Do you have any preconceived ideas 24 in this case as to how it should come out? 25 JUROR NO. 189: No, I don't. 183 1 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Stopher? 2 MR. STOPHER: Ms. Davis, my name is Ed Stopher. 3 I wanted to ask you about an answer that you gave to Question 4 No. 9, where you made the indication that -- the question was: 5 "Do you think that a prescription drug for treating depression 6 should be found 100-percent safe before being sold to the 7 public," and you answered yes? 8 JUROR NO. 189: I answered yes because I am a 9 glaucoma patient. I have been through, voluntary, some 10 studies on different eye drops for glaucoma. And before they 11 are -- well, when you would go in each week, regardless of 12 what you had left in the bottle, it had to be returned to the 13 doctor. So I do feel that any drug, such as even the eye 14 drops that I was taking, should be 100 percent before it's 15 released. 16 MR. STOPHER: You've participated in some 17 clinical trials then? 18 JUROR NO. 189: That's right. Clinical trials? 19 Tests for eye drops. 20 MR. STOPHER: Tests on the drops or on you? 21 JUROR NO. 189: On -- the drops were 22 administered to me by me. 23 MR. STOPHER: And was it part of a trial-type 24 process? 25 JUROR NO. 189: A study, yes, and that was 184 1 volunteer based. 2 MR. STOPHER: It was a volunteer thing? 3 JUROR NO. 189: That's right. 4 MR. STOPHER: So I take it that you feel that 5 those kind of tests should be done before a drug is marketed? 6 JUROR NO. 189: Yes. That's right. That's why 7 I answered yes. 8 MR. STOPHER: What about different people 9 reacting differently to a drug that is on the market at 10 different times? Do you have an opinion about that? 11 JUROR NO. 189: No. If the drug has been 12 tested, as I stated there, well, anything you take, it could 13 be an aspirin and you might have a different reaction, 14 depending on your body chemicals at that particular time. 15 MR. STOPHER: And you would not regard aspirin 16 then as being unsafe? 17 JUROR NO. 189: No. 18 MR. STOPHER: Okay. You also answered in 19 response to whether or not you had ever been in a lawsuit, and 20 you wrote down you don't know? I was curious about that 21 answer. 22 JUROR NO. 189: Okay. It's been so long. I was 23 a teenager then and I was hit by a car. 24 MR. STOPHER: So it was a car accident case a 25 long, long time ago? 185 1 JUROR NO. 189: Right. And Mom got the money 2 and I didn't, so... I was underage, you know. 3 MR. STOPHER: Well, she must have put it aside 4 for you for later on. 5 JUROR NO. 189: Sure she did. Right. Right. 6 MR. STOPHER: Ms. Davis, let me just ask you 7 about your husband. I don't mean to ask this for purposes of 8 being nosy, but you indicated that he is disabled. What is 9 the nature of his disability? 10 JUROR NO. 189: He has multiple sclerosis. 11 MR. STOPHER: And is he continually under a 12 doctor's care? 13 JUROR NO. 189: Yes. 14 MR. STOPHER: Does he take medications? 15 JUROR NO. 189: Yes, he does. 16 MR. STOPHER: Drugs in connection with that 17 disease? 18 JUROR NO. 189: Yes, he does. 19 MR. STOPHER: Has he had any bad experiencess 20 with medications in connection with his disease or his 21 treatment? 22 JUROR NO. 189: No, he hasn't. At one time I 23 thought he -- maybe I shouldn't ad lib, but I will. I thought 24 maybe because he did a lot of sleeping -- and I called and 25 called the doctor; I know that there's an ethic code, but I 186 1 need to know if he's really sick or if he's just lazy. And 2 the doctor said he's just lazy, and that was the answer to 3 that, but we haven't had any problems. 4 MR. STOPHER: Okay. Ms. Davis, do you know of 5 any reason why you couldn't sit in this case and decide it 6 fairly for both parties based on what the evidence is rather 7 than on what you think or think you may know about the people 8 or about the drug or about Mr. Wesbecker? 9 JUROR NO. 189: I think I could sit there very 10 fairly. I know nothing about the people or really Wesbecker. 11 MR. STOPHER: All right. All right. That's 12 all. Thank you, Judge. 13 MR. SMITH: Let me just ask one more question, 14 Your Honor. 15 Ms. Davis, were you paid to participate in the 16 clinical trial on the eye drops? 17 JUROR NO. 189: No. I got lunch and a movie 18 pass. 19 MR. SMITH: Do you know whether that trial was 20 being conducted by the FDA or by the manufacturer of the drug? 21 JUROR NO. 189: God, I really don't remember. I 22 did have to sign some papers, and it was with Doctor Koby. 23 Okay. That's out at DuPont Circle. 24 MR. SMITH: Do you know who the manufacturer of 25 that drug was? 187 1 JUROR NO. 189: To tell you the truth, no. 2 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Ms. Davis-Spalding, I'm 3 going to recess as far as you're concerned till 1:00 tomorrow 4 afternoon. If you'll be over in the jury pool room at 1:00. 5 Again I remind you do not talk to anybody about this case and 6 don't let anybody talk to you about the case. Don't form or 7 express opinions about it or talk with your other jurors. 8 Okay. Thank you, ma'am. You're excused. 9 I remind you you're still under oath. Some of 10 these attorneys may need to ask you a question or two. 11 MR. STOPHER: I'm Mr. Stopher. Glad to meet 12 you. I wanted to ask you about Question No. 9 and I just now 13 noticed that we jumped from Page 1 to Page 4 in this 14 questionnaire, there was no Page 2 and 3, but you answered 15 Question No. 9, which read: "Do you think that a prescription 16 drug for treating depression should be found 100-percent safe 17 before being sold to the public," and you answered yes. Could 18 you tell me what you really meant by that answer? 19 JUROR NO. 81: I mean that they should put -- I 20 mean, you know, that they should try it before they prescribe 21 it to anybody or put it on the market and see that it's okay 22 and see the contraindications of it. 23 MR. STOPHER: I'm not going to ask you to spell 24 that. In other words, that there could be side effects from 25 the drug, and that wouldn't necessarily make it unsafe? 188 1 JUROR NO. 81: Right. 2 MR. STOPHER: Okay. You also mentioned that -- 3 and I hate to bring this up. I think you understand what I'm 4 going to ask you about. 5 JUROR NO. 81: Yeah. 6 MR. STOPHER: Apparently there was a murder in 7 the family? 8 JUROR NO. 81: Uh-huh. 9 MR. STOPHER: If I understand correctly, and 10 maybe I'm misreading this, it says ex-mother-in-law? 11 JUROR NO. 81: It was my ex-mother-in-law. 12 MR. STOPHER: It would be your former husband's 13 mother? 14 JUROR NO. 81: Yes. 15 MR. STOPHER: And apparently she was -- 16 JUROR NO. 81: Her daughter in November of '90 17 was beat to death by her husband. 18 MR. STOPHER: Were you married to your 19 ex-husband at that time? 20 JUROR NO. 81: Well, he was my fiance. We 21 weren't married, but I called her my mother-in-law. 22 MR. STOPHER: Okay. I see. And apparently you 23 wrote down here it was situational depression? 24 JUROR NO. 81: She would -- every day after the 25 funeral she would go to the graveyard and just sit there at 189 1 the grave. She never wanted to leave her. And she was going 2 to -- she was being treated by a doctor anyway, I mean, just 3 for her asthma and whatever, but her doctor put her on the 4 Prozac. 5 MR. STOPHER: And when you said it was 6 situational depression, that was referring to your 7 mother-in-law and not to the ex-husband that had committed the 8 murder (sic)? 9 JUROR NO. 81: No. It was to the mother-in-law. 10 That was what her depression was, that situation, her 11 grieving. 12 MR. STOPHER: Okay. In connection with -- I 13 take it that you've never taken Prozac yourself? 14 JUROR NO. 81: No, sir. 15 MR. STOPHER: And your mother -- your 16 ex-mother-in-law took it that one time, if I understood? 17 JUROR NO. 81: She took it, but I explained on 18 there that I could not find out if she was still on it or not 19 because I'm not supposed to discuss this case, but she took it 20 and it really helped her. 21 MR. STOPHER: All right. That was in November 22 of 1990? 23 JUROR NO. 81: Of 1990, yes. 24 MR. STOPHER: All right. Has that experience so 25 influenced you that you don't think you could sit in this case 190 1 and decide it fairly based on what the evidence is in this 2 case as compared to what you know or your ex-mother-in-law 3 might know about Prozac? 4 JUROR NO. 81: I've never used Prozac but, for 5 her, it did help her. But, I mean, it's just little 6 information that I have about the medication. 7 MR. STOPHER: Do you still have an open mind on 8 the facts in this case and what the result ought to be? 9 JUROR NO. 81: What do you mean, an open mind? 10 MR. STOPHER: That is, that you can decide it 11 based on what the evidence is as compared to what you think 12 ought to happen already. 13 JUROR NO. 81: I think after I listen to 14 everything I could. 15 MR. STOPHER: And based on what you hear as 16 opposed to what you know now or think you know now? 17 JUROR NO. 81: Yes, sir. 18 MR. STOPHER: All right. I noticed that -- and 19 I may be misinterpreting this about your occupation. You work 20 at Number One Audubon Plaza and then I got a little -- 21 JUROR NO. 81: It's Audubon Regional Medical 22 Center; that used to be Humana Hospital Audubon. They used to 23 be Galen. We keep changing our name. But it's the hospital 24 on Poplar Level. 25 MR. STOPHER: All right. All right. Now, you 191 1 are an ECT or an emergency technician? 2 JUROR NO. 81: Yes, sir. 3 MR. STOPHER: In other words, you would 4 administer, if I understand, basically -- 5 JUROR NO. 81: No medicines. 6 MR. STOPHER: No medicines, but you would 7 administer first aid? 8 JUROR NO. 81: To patients in the emergency 9 room, limited. 10 MR. STOPHER: Emergency care? 11 JUROR NO. 81: Limited. Uh-huh. 12 MR. STOPHER: Okay. All right. 13 JUROR NO. 81: We assist the doctors, assist the 14 nurse. 15 MR. STOPHER: Okay. Let me just double-check 16 here just one more second, and I believe -- Ms. Douglas, if I 17 understand correctly, the murder did not involve a weapon; am 18 I right? 19 JUROR NO. 81: A baseball bat. 20 MR. STOPHER: And I take it that you don't own 21 any guns and you yourself have not been involved with any sort 22 of crimes of violence other than that one incident? 23 JUROR NO. 81: Correct. Well, what do you mean 24 crimes? 25 MR. STOPHER: I meant somebody being attacked or 192 1 beaten or murdered, as you answered? 2 JUROR NO. 81: No. No. 3 MR. STOPHER: All right. Okay. I appreciate 4 it. Sorry to have to ask you about that incident again, but I 5 think you can understand why. 6 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Smith? 7 MR. SMITH: It appears to me, Ms. Douglas, that 8 maybe you've had a little more experience with Prozac than the 9 ordinary person in that you've administered it at your work 10 and you've seen it in connection with your mother, your ex- 11 mother-in-law; is that right? 12 JUROR NO. 81: Uh-huh. I don't administer 13 drugs. I'm not a nurse. 14 MR. SMITH: But you've observed people getting 15 Prozac? 16 JUROR NO. 81: Yes. 17 MR. SMITH: Have you ever seen anybody have any 18 reaction to Prozac? 19 JUROR NO. 81: No, sir; I haven't. Now, when I 20 worked in the jail is where they gave it, and the nurse would 21 take the drug to the inmate's cell. 22 MR. SMITH: Yes, ma'am. Was it ever reported to 23 you that the Prozac was either benefiting these individuals or 24 causing them to act in any different way at all? 25 JUROR NO. 81: No. 193 1 MR. SMITH: All right. So that didn't form any 2 kind of lasting impression in your mind? 3 JUROR NO. 81: No, sir. 4 MR. SMITH: Do you have any judgment at this 5 time whether or not Prozac was involved in causing Mr. 6 Wesbecker's actions on September 14th, 1989? 7 JUROR NO. 81: No, I don't. 8 MR. SMITH: You hesitated. 9 JUROR NO. 81: I don't know what provoked him. 10 I really don't know. I can't say it was the medication. 11 MR. SMITH: Thank you, Ms. Douglas. 12 JUDGE POTTER: Okay, ma'am. I'm going to, as 13 far as you're concerned, take a recess till 1:00 tomorrow 14 afternoon. If you will be over in the jury pool area, the 15 assembly area where you went the first day at 1:00. 16 JUROR NO. 81: Don't show up until one? 17 JUDGE POTTER: And remember my admonition about 18 talking about the case or letting anybody else communicate 19 with you about it, including the newspaper and the TV? 20 JUROR NO. 81: I know I had to go home and drink 21 two beers and go to bed last night. I couldn't talk to 22 anybody. 23 (OFF THE RECORD) 24 JUDGE POTTER: How are you, Mr. Fitch? I remind 25 you you're still under oath, sir. These people may want to 194 1 ask you some questions, if you'll just answer them. 2 JUROR NO. 14: I won't charge them nothing 3 extra. 4 MR. SMITH: Mr. Fitch, I'm Paul Smith, and I 5 represent the plaintiffs in this case. I see that you are 6 retired, sir? 7 JUROR NO. 14: Yes. 8 MR. SMITH: And what did you do before you 9 retired? 10 JUROR NO. 14: I worked in retailing, sales, and 11 I worked at the furniture and home furnishings at 12 Kaufman-Strauss, and then I went to L. S. Ayres and then to 13 Stewart's, all in the same building. 14 MR. SMITH: And you worked there how many years? 15 JUROR NO. 14: Fifty-three years. 16 MR. SMITH: Is that right? 17 JUROR NO. 14: (Nods head affirmatively). 18 MR. SMITH: I see that your brother was a police 19 officer. 20 JUROR NO. 14: Yes. He was from Illinois, but 21 now he lives in Texas. 22 MR. SMITH: Is that right? 23 JUROR NO. 14: Yeah. 24 MR. SMITH: What part? 25 JUROR NO. 14: I don't really know. It's down 195 1 close to the Mexican border but he tells me the temperature 2 never gets any cooler than 70, never any warmer than 72, so I 3 know he's telling me a fib. 4 MR. SMITH: You won't hold that against me in 5 this case, will you? 6 JUROR NO. 14: He tells me he has tomatoes all 7 year around. 8 MR. SMITH: He may if he's down near Mexico. 9 JUROR NO. 14: He's close to Mexico. 10 MR. SMITH: That's all I have. 11 MR. STOPHER: Mr. Fitch, my name is Ed Stopher. 12 This trial is supposed to last a couple of months, sir. Is 13 that going to pose any problem for you coming in every day, 14 putting in a pretty full day every day from now until 15 Thanksgiving? 16 JUROR NO. 14: Not really. I have three dates 17 that I have already promised. I have one the 5th of October, 18 which is in the evening that's a -- go to school to work the 19 polls. Then I work at the polls on November the 8th. So 20 that's about the only thing that would -- might conflict. 21 MR. STOPHER: Okay. Mr. Fitch, there's going to 22 be a lot of very detailed statistics, a lot of information 23 about clinical trials and that sort of thing, a lot of 24 details. Is that going to bother you in any way, having to 25 listen to all of that? 196 1 JUROR NO. 14: I don't think it will bother me. 2 I don't think it will. I mean, really I don't know too much 3 about that type of trial and I've never been through one or 4 never... So I don't really think it would bother me. I've 5 enjoyed myself so far. 6 MR. STOPHER: Okay. Well, you're too kind. The 7 reason I was asking you is that you and my dad are about the 8 same age, and sometimes when I get too detailed with him he 9 gets real irritated. 10 JUROR NO. 14: Yeah. 11 MR. STOPHER: And I was wondering if you had a 12 problem in trying to concentrate for long periods of time on 13 tremendous amounts of information and be able to try to 14 concentrate on it for a long period of time? 15 JUROR NO. 14: Well, being in the sales end of 16 it, I don't really think I would have any problem because you 17 always had to talk to customers and you always had to work a 18 little bit ahead of them, so I don't think it would, but I 19 hope I can remember. 20 MR. STOPHER: All right, sir. You don't have 21 any problem, you don't think, in dealing with a lot of 22 information and trying to have any recall of that? 23 JUROR NO. 14: Well, I don't really think I 24 would. I belong to the Masonic Lodge and we put on degree 25 work and that's all memory work so... 197 1 MR. STOPHER: If you can remember that, you can 2 remember pretty well. I think you understand the reason for 3 my asking, sir. Apparently, you don't own any weapons, but 4 your brother did? 5 JUROR NO. 14: No. No. I don't own any 6 weapons, no. 7 MR. STOPHER: All right, sir. I think that's 8 all I have. I appreciate it, Mr. Fitch. 9 JUDGE POTTER: I'm going to recess as far as 10 you're concerned till 1:00 tomorrow afternoon. If you will 11 just be in the jury pool, the assembly area at 1:00 tomorrow 12 afternoon. And I give you the same admonition I've given you 13 before. Don't let anybody communicate with you about this 14 case, and that includes the TV and newspapers, or don't form 15 or express opinions or talk to any other jurors. 16 JUROR NO. 14: I will do that. 17 JUDGE POTTER: Thank you very much. 18 JUROR NO. 14: Thank you. Thank you very much. 19 JUDGE POTTER: That's ten people and it's taken 20 an hour and fifteen minutes. We've got thirty-three. We're 21 not going to get through them all today. Let's pull out 22 fifteen more. That will give us probably till 5:00 or 23 something like that, and then go ahead and send the rest of 24 them, let them go home and come back in in the morning. That 25 will take us up to twenty-five. So I count eleven, twelve, 198 1 thirteen... 2 MR. STOPHER: Terri Morrison would be the last 3 one? 4 JUDGE POTTER: That's the way I count. The ones 5 we would ask to leave and come back tomorrow would start with 6 Mr. Murphy and go on like that. Why don't we take a 15-minute 7 recess and we'll try to keep it to 15 minutes. 8 MS. ZETTLER: Judge, did we ever get a 9 questionnaire from Mr. Gregory? 10 JUDGE POTTER: Yes. I don't know where it came 11 from. 12 MS. ZETTLER: Is it Mr. or Barbara? We're 13 missing a Barbara Gregory. Did you ever get one? 14 SHERIFF CECIL: We got it this morning. 15 MS. ZETTLER: Can we get copies made? 16 MR. STOPHER: Is there any way to get a couple 17 of copies made? 18 MARSHA: I don't know if there is a machine. 19 MS. ZETTLER: On my list it's Barbara. 20 JUDGE POTTER: Barbara Gregory. 21 (RECESS) 22 JUDGE POTTER: How are you, Mr. Garrett? I want 23 to remind you you're still under oath, sir, and these 24 gentlemen may want to ask you some questions. 25 It probably is Mr. Smith. I think he started 199 1 originally. 2 JUDGE POTTER: And this is No. 11, so he ought 3 to have the honors. Go ahead, Mr. Smith. 4 MR. SMITH: Good afternoon, Mr. Garrett. How 5 are you today? As I understand it, in answer to 23, these .22 6 pistol and .22 rifle you haven't used? 7 JUROR NO. 175: No. They're not usable. 8 They're hand-me-downs. They're my dad's guns. 9 MR. SMITH: In the psychology class that you 10 took, did you take any courses on depression or anything of 11 that nature? 12 JUROR NO. 175: No. It was just a general 13 psychology course, part of the general ed program. 14 MR. SMITH: Do you have any opinion one way or 15 another, Mr. Garrett, concerning whether or not Prozac caused 16 Mr. Wesbecker's conduct on September 14th, 1989? 17 JUROR NO. 175: Not really one way or the other. 18 MR. SMITH: Thank you. 19 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Stopher? 20 MR. STOPHER: Mr. Garrett, you answered in 21 response to No. 29 that you had read about or have read about 22 Prozac in The Courier-Journal? 23 JUROR NO. 175: Uh-huh. 24 MR. STOPHER: Do you recall what you read, sir? 25 JUROR NO. 175: It was one of the articles they 200 1 had in -- I guess like a series or something. It was in the 2 Sunday paper, just one of the articles. Just reading the 3 Sunday paper I read it. 4 MR. STOPHER: Are you talking about this past 5 Sunday? 6 JUROR NO. 175: No. This was several years ago. 7 MR. STOPHER: Several years ago. Was it with 8 regard to this particular incident, sir? 9 JUROR NO. 175: I think it referenced it as like 10 a side story, I guess. 11 MR. STOPHER: Okay. Did that lead you to form 12 any opinions about Prozac? 13 JUROR NO. 175: Not really. I don't really know 14 that much about it. 15 MR. STOPHER: Do you have an opinion that Prozac 16 causes violence or homicidal behavior? 17 JUROR NO. 175: Really the only thing I know 18 about it is what I read in that one article. 19 MR. STOPHER: And did that lead you to believe 20 that it did or it didn't, or you just don't know one way or 21 the other? 22 JUROR NO. 175: Just don't know; yes, sir. 23 MR. STOPHER: In connection, sir, with the 24 psychology class that you took at JCC, was this an 25 undergraduate class? 201 1 JUROR NO. 175: Yeah. It was part of the 2 general course things. 3 MR. STOPHER: Okay. And have you used that 4 education at all? 5 JUROR NO. 175: Not really, just, you know, I 6 more or less forgot most of it, I guess. 7 MR. STOPHER: Okay. In other words, what I was 8 wondering is have you -- I notice that you're employed at 9 Whayne Supply Company, but I take it that you haven't used 10 your training in psychology as a social worker or an aide to a 11 psychologist or anything like that? 12 JUROR NO. 175: No. No. 13 MR. STOPHER: You don't claim any expertise in 14 those matters? 15 JUROR NO. 175: No. 16 MR. STOPHER: Finally, sir, you marked on the 17 questionnaire that, "Do you think that a prescription drug for 18 treating depression should be found 100-percent safe before 19 being sold to the public," and you answered yes? 20 JUROR NO. 175: Yes. 21 MR. STOPHER: Can you tell me what you meant by 22 that, sir? 23 JUROR NO. 175: I just believe the drug 24 companies should -- are big enough that they should do 25 research and be able to stand behind their product. 202 1 MR. STOPHER: And what about side effects? 2 JUROR NO. 175: I don't know how they research 3 side effects, but that should be taken into account. 4 MR. STOPHER: In other words, the fact that a 5 drug has a side effect, does that make that drug unsafe? 6 JUROR NO. 175: I'm not a doctor to tell you 7 that. 8 MR. STOPHER: Okay. You don't have an opinion 9 about that? 10 JUROR NO. 175: Just that drug companies, you 11 know, it should be safe. 12 MR. STOPHER: In the sense that it should be 13 free of all side effects or in the sense that it should be 14 safe for the majority of people? 15 JUROR NO. 175: Well, I don't know you could 16 probably make a drug completely 100-percent side effect. 17 MR. STOPHER: In other words, not side-effect 18 free? 19 JUROR NO. 175: Right. That's what I'm trying 20 to say. I'm nervous. 21 MR. STOPHER: That's all right, sir. So am I, 22 even after all these years. In other words, if I understand 23 your position, what you meant to say in answer to that 24 question was that the pharmaceutical company should test the 25 drug, but that you don't expect it to be absolutely free of 203 1 all side effects? 2 JUROR NO. 175: I think they should make it as 3 safe as they could possibly make it. 4 MR. STOPHER: And to the extent that it would 5 have side effects, that's acceptable, or not? 6 JUROR NO. 175: I guess you're always going to 7 have a side effect of some type. 8 MR. STOPHER: Does that make the pharmaceutical 9 unsafe, in your opinion, or not? 10 JUROR NO. 175: Well, I would think they would 11 inform the doctors that are prescribing it of the possible 12 side effects. 13 MR. STOPHER: Have you ever taken a prescription 14 medication at any time, sir? 15 JUROR NO. 175: Just, like, for colds and stuff 16 like that. 17 MR. STOPHER: Sure. You take like antibiotics 18 and that sort of thing? 19 JUROR NO. 175: Yeah. 20 MR. STOPHER: Have you ever studied to see if 21 they have any listed side effects? 22 JUROR NO. 175: Not really, no. 23 MR. STOPHER: You just do like I do and take 24 what the doctor gives you? 25 JUROR NO. 175: Yes, sir. 204 1 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Garrett, as far as you're 2 concerned, I'm going to take a recess till 1:00 tomorrow 3 afternoon, and if you will just go over to the jury assembly 4 area where you first went and be there at 1:00. You don't 5 have to come in earlier. 6 I'm going to give you the same admonition I've 7 given you before. Don't permit anybody to communicate with 8 you about this case, and that includes your family, you know, 9 just friends, whatever, including the newspaper and the TV, so 10 don't let them communicate with you by reading their articles 11 or watching them. Don't form or express opinions about the 12 case and don't talk to your other jurors about it. Okay. 13 You're excused until tomorrow, sir. 14 JUROR NO. 175: Thank you. 15 SHERIFF CECIL: Ms. Gregory is letting Mr. Heuer 16 go in front of her. He's No. 16. He has to catch a bus. 17 JUDGE POTTER: How are you, Mr. Heuer? Would 18 you have a seat, sir, and I'll remind you you're still under 19 oath. These gentlemen might want to ask you some questions. 20 Mr. Stopher? 21 MR. STOPHER: Mr. Heuer, my name is Ed Stopher. 22 I wanted to ask you about an answer that you gave, sir, to the 23 question about firearms. And is this a firearm that you own, 24 sir? 25 JUROR NO. 16: Yes, it is. 205 1 MR. SMITH: And do you use that firearm for 2 hunting or for self protection, or is it just something that 3 you just have? 4 JUROR NO. 16: It's for self protection. I 5 bought the gun about ten years ago. It's never been out of my 6 dresser. It's never been fired. 7 MR. STOPHER: Never been fired. I don't know 8 what they call that in the gun world but... You indicated, 9 sir, that -- is it you or your stepfather that has had some 10 police training? 11 JUROR NO. 16: My stepfather was a policeman, 12 police officer. 13 MR. STOPHER: I take it he's no longer alive or 14 he's retired? 15 JUROR NO. 16: No. He's retired several years 16 ago. He's retired. 17 MR. STOPHER: All right, sir. I take it from 18 what you've answered in here, sir, that you have no opinion as 19 to the cause for Joseph Wesbecker's shootings at Standard 20 Gravure on September 14th? 21 JUROR NO. 16: That's correct. I've only been 22 in Louisville for about four years and the first I had heard 23 of this was in Sunday's paper, so I didn't know anything prior 24 to that. 25 MR. STOPHER: Where did you come from, sir? 206 1 JUROR NO. 16: Indianapolis area. 2 MR. STOPHER: Okay. And, so, your just coming 3 here four years ago, that would have been about a year after 4 the incident occurred? 5 JUROR NO. 16: It was in June of '90. 6 MR. STOPHER: And this occurred in September of 7 '89. 8 JUROR NO. 16: Okay. 9 MR. STOPHER: So you were almost a year later. 10 JUROR NO. 16: Right. 11 MR. STOPHER: So you didn't -- I take it you 12 haven't read anything about this particular incident or Mr. 13 Wesbecker's history until just this past Sunday, did you say? 14 JUROR NO. 16: That's correct. 15 MR. STOPHER: All right. Based on that reading 16 last Sunday of the article or some portions of the articles, 17 did you form any opinions about the outcome of the case? 18 JUROR NO. 16: No, I did not. 19 MR. STOPHER: You mentioned here, sir, that you 20 have some college education? 21 JUROR NO. 16: Uh-huh. 22 MR. STOPHER: Would you mind telling us what you 23 have, what you studied in college? 24 JUROR NO. 16: Well, I'm a pilot and I went to 25 Columbus, Indiana, and Indianapolis at the IU/Purdue 207 1 extensions, and I've got an equivalent to a two-year degree in 2 general studies. 3 MR. STOPHER: I see. So it was kind of a 4 liberal-arts-type course? 5 JUROR NO. 16: Yes. Uh-huh. 6 MR. STOPHER: And you studied general topics, 7 not anything related to psychology or psychiatry? 8 JUROR NO. 16: That's correct. 9 MR. STOPHER: All right, sir. You are a pilot 10 here now, sir? 11 JUROR NO. 16: I work for the Federal Aviation 12 Administration. 13 MR. STOPHER: The FAA. And is that out at 14 Bowman Field? 15 JUROR NO. 16: Yes. Well, we're not right at 16 the airport. They moved from the airport about five years 17 ago. We're in the Kaden Tower, if you're familiar with that. 18 MR. STOPHER: Yeah, I am. A lot of changes at 19 Bowman Field these days. 20 JUROR NO. 16: Right. 21 MR. STOPHER: And you're an aviation safety 22 inspector, are you? 23 JUROR NO. 16: I'm an operations inspector. I'm 24 assigned to the Comair certificate. I give check rights, 25 pilot certification, surveillance. 208 1 MR. STOPHER: All right, sir. I think those are 2 all the questions I have, Mr. Heuer. Thank you. 3 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Smith? 4 MR. SMITH: When you were -- how long did you 5 live in Indianapolis, Mr. Heuer? 6 JUROR NO. 16: In the Indianapolis area all my 7 life except for one year, when I was younger, we lived in 8 Mississippi for a year. 9 MR. SMITH: Eli Lilly and Company is a 10 well-known concern in Indianapolis; correct? 11 JUROR NO. 16: Yes. I'm sure I knew Eli Lilly. 12 Uh-huh. 13 MR. SMITH: You drive in, you can see their 14 signs way up in the air. 15 JUROR NO. 16: They were known to the community. 16 They sponsored scholarships and various other things. You 17 read Eli Lilly in the paper. It was a well-known name. 18 MR. SMITH: Do you have an opinion concerning 19 the corporate citizenship and whether they're a good company 20 or a bad company? 21 JUROR NO. 16: I don't have anything negative 22 with Eli Lilly. They were well thought of in the Indianapolis 23 community. 24 MR. SMITH: Do you have good thoughts about Eli 25 Lilly and Company? Do you have any better general impression 209 1 of Eli Lilly and Company than the plaintiffs that I represent? 2 JUROR NO. 16: I don't have any better view of 3 Eli Lilly than any other major corporation in Indianapolis. 4 MR. SMITH: All right. In your work with the 5 FAA, give me a little more details on that, if you can, 6 briefly. I'm not familiar with the FAA process. 7 JUROR NO. 16: Okay. As an aviation safety 8 inspector I'm assigned to the Comair airline certificate. 9 Overall, basically what I do is try to make sure that flying 10 is safe for the general public on that airline. I make sure 11 that the personnel are trained properly. I assist in giving 12 them recurrent flight checks, make sure that they don't 13 violate any regulations as far as duty time, anything along 14 those lines. 15 MR. SMITH: Is there one particular airline that 16 you oversee or -- 17 JUROR NO. 16: I'm assigned to Comair Airlines. 18 MR. SMITH: Comair? 19 JUROR NO. 16: Uh-huh. It's a commuter airline 20 based out of Cincinnati and, also, they've got a base in 21 Orlando. 22 MR. SMITH: In this case, Mr. Heuer, there is 23 going to be a lot of evidence concerning the United States 24 Food and Drug Administration who serve in an overseeing 25 capacity, sort of like the FAA, except under different 210 1 regulations. 2 JUROR NO. 16: Right. Right. 3 MR. SMITH: I'm wondering if the fact that 4 you're an employee of the FAA would make you lean toward 5 findings or investigations made by the Food and Drug 6 Administration? 7 JUROR NO. 16: I honestly don't think so. I 8 mean, we're not associated with them other than that they are 9 a federal entity, as are several other federal entities. 10 MR. SMITH: Do you believe that because the Food 11 and Drug Administration has approved a product that it's 12 automatically 100-percent safe? 13 JUROR NO. 16: No. 14 MR. SMITH: Do you know whether or not the FDA 15 even tests pharmaceutical products themselves? 16 JUROR NO. 16: I have no knowledge of 17 pharmaceuticals or the testing of pharmaceuticals. 18 MR. SMITH: Do you have any criticism of the FDA 19 and how they oversee? 20 JUROR NO. 16: No criticism because I've got no 21 knowledge of how they operate. 22 MR. SMITH: Do you have any relatives -- since 23 you're from Indianapolis that work for Lilly or closely with 24 Eli Lilly in Indianapolis? 25 JUROR NO. 16: No. 211 1 MR. SMITH: Have you or any of your relatives 2 been the benefit of any of these Lilly scholarships that you 3 mentioned? 4 JUROR NO. 16: Never. No. 5 MR. SMITH: You know of any reason why you 6 couldn't be a fair and impartial juror in this case? 7 JUROR NO. 16: No. 8 MR. SMITH: Thank you, sir. 9 JUDGE POTTER: Okay, Mr. Heuer, from your point 10 of view I'm going to recess till 1:00 tomorrow afternoon, and 11 that means if you will be in the jury assembly area at 1:00; 12 you don't have to come in before that. As I mentioned to you 13 before, don't permit anybody to communicate with you about 14 this case, and that includes the media, by watching TV about 15 it, or reading in the newspaper about it. And, of course, 16 don't discuss it with your family or the other jurors, anybody 17 like that. Also do not form or express your opinions about 18 the case until it is finally submitted. You're excused until 19 1:00 tomorrow afternoon. Thank you very much. 20 Hi, you're Ms. Gregory. Okay. I remind you 21 you're still under oath, ma'am. These people would like to 22 ask you a few questions. Mr. Stopher? I'm sorry. It's okay. 23 Mr. Smith? 24 MR. SMITH: Ms. Gregory, bear with us a little 25 bit. Somehow we just got your questionnaire, so we need to 212 1 take a quick look at it. Can I just go through it with you a 2 little bit? 3 JUROR NO. 205: Sure. 4 MR. SMITH: It says in answer to Six that in 5 connection with the pharmaceutical industry advising the 6 public that at one time you didn't think the public had enough 7 information and that now you feel they're informing us more 8 about any risk involved; is that right? 9 JUROR NO. 205: Right. 10 MR. SMITH: What do you mean specifically about 11 what risks they're now advising of? 12 JUROR NO. 205: Well, before when I would pick 13 up a prescription at the drugstore you didn't get anything 14 unless your doctor explained what the medication was, what it 15 was for, any side effects, or if you would ask the pharmacist, 16 but now I know with Walgreen's where I get mine, they give me 17 a paper that has the name on it and it tells you what the 18 medication's for, the side effects, any risk involved, I mean, 19 just a lot of information that you maybe would find in a 20 medical book maybe where you didn't before. 21 MR. SMITH: Uh-huh. Do you know if that 22 information is being provided by the drug company, the 23 manufacturer of the drug or whether or not that's a service 24 that's being provided by the individual pharmacy itself? 25 JUROR NO. 205: Now, that, I really don't know. 213 1 Walgreen's just started that here a few months ago. But it 2 gives you an awful lot of information. 3 MR. SMITH: But you don't know where that 4 information comes from? 5 JUROR NO. 205: No, I really don't. 6 MR. SMITH: Now, as I understand it, both you 7 and your daughter have had experiences with depression; is 8 that right? 9 JUROR NO. 205: Yes. 10 MR. SMITH: And when did your depression begin 11 and end, if I might ask, Ms. Gregory? 12 JUROR NO. 205: Well, I started with severe 13 migraines, it will be 35 years this December. Okay. That's 14 when my depression more or less started because I couldn't -- 15 they couldn't find out why I was having them. They couldn't 16 do anything to help them. And at one point, well, they found 17 an aneurysm; that was clamped off. That was okay but they 18 didn't stop, and then this one doctor tried this Elavil and I 19 took that for a while, I don't know, a couple years I think, 20 but I started having nightmares and so I just had to quit. 21 And then I changed doctors and he changed my medication as far 22 as like Midrin to constrict the vessels to help, you know, 23 keep the pain from happening and, also, then like Fioricets 24 for the pain. And now the Imirex that's out, I can give 25 myself shots when I do have them that's not narcotic or habit 214 1 forming. 2 MR. SMITH: Do you take any antidepressant 3 medication at this time? 4 JUROR NO. 205: No. 5 MR. SMITH: Do you know if you've ever taken any 6 other than the Elavil? 7 JUROR NO. 205: I took -- he put me on Prozac 8 for about a month. 9 MR. SMITH: Oh, you were on Prozac, also? 10 JUROR NO. 205: He tried me on that for about a 11 month, but the only reaction I had was just the fact of just 12 sweating in my hair. You know, it just seemed like my head 13 stayed wet all the time. And, so, he did it for the 14 headaches. He was trying it for the headaches and my doctor 15 was -- 16 MR. SMITH: When you got that Prozac for that 17 one month, did you get some type of a slip from the pharmacy 18 explaining the side effects of Prozac? 19 JUROR NO. 205: Yes. 20 MR. SMITH: And did it describe the sweating and 21 the hair problems? 22 JUROR NO. 205: It said that that could occur. 23 It gave a lot of different side effects. It could have. 24 MR. SMITH: And did your doctor take you off the 25 Prozac because of that particular side effect? 215 1 JUROR NO. 205: Yes. Because I told him it was 2 so uncomfortable and it didn't seem like it made any 3 difference with my headaches. 4 MR. SMITH: What did the doctor tell you in 5 connection with the safety of Prozac, if anything? 6 JUROR NO. 205: He said it -- he thought it was 7 very safe. He had his own mother on it for two years with 8 migraine, and, so, she did real well and he thought it would 9 help me. 10 MR. SMITH: Is your daughter still being treated 11 for depression? 12 JUROR NO. 205: She's been on it three years. 13 MR. SMITH: And is she still being treated with 14 Prozac? 15 JUROR NO. 205: Yes. 16 MR. SMITH: Based on your experience, your 17 doctor's discussion about Prozac being a safe medication and 18 based on the fact that your daughter's been on Prozac for 19 three years, do you think that this would cause you to lean in 20 favor of thinking that Prozac didn't have anything to do with 21 Mr. Wesbecker's actions on September 14th, 1989? 22 JUROR NO. 205: No, because I know that 23 different people naturally they react differently to 24 medications, you know. Not everyone can take the same 25 medication. So as to whether that would affect Mr. 216 1 Wesbecker's actions or not, I mean, I can't say that it did or 2 it didn't. 3 MR. SMITH: Let's say you felt like it may have 4 affected his actions on September 14th, 1989. Would you have 5 any opinion on whether or not, based on your experience with 6 Prozac, Prozac was safe or unsafe in connection with Mr. 7 Wesbecker? 8 JUROR NO. 205: I would say it was safe. 9 MR. SMITH: In other words, would you translate 10 your experience with Prozac to an examination of the issue of 11 the safety of Prozac in connection with Mr. Wesbecker? 12 JUROR NO. 205: Well, if I understand what 13 you're asking me correctly, I just believe it's a safe 14 medicine. And the way I understood at that time he was taking 15 other medications and that, in my opinion, that possibly the 16 other medications with Prozac is what maybe triggered him or 17 something. 18 MR. SMITH: So let me see if I understand. 19 JUROR NO. 205: Maybe I'm not answering you 20 right because maybe I'm not understanding it right. 21 MR. SMITH: You're of the belief at this time 22 that Prozac is safe? 23 JUROR NO. 205: Yes. I think so. 24 MR. SMITH: And you're of the belief at this 25 time that Prozac was prescribed in connection with other 217 1 medications in connection with Mr. Wesbecker and that that, if 2 anything, caused his conduct on September 14th? 3 JUROR NO. 205: Either with other medications or 4 just his own -- I don't know what you call it, metabolism or 5 whatever, you know. 6 MR. SMITH: Or his illness? 7 JUROR NO. 205: No. I mean, like I couldn't 8 take Elavil, you know, the reaction I had with it. That 9 possibly maybe he had a reaction to Prozac, you know, that he 10 couldn't really take that. 11 MR. SMITH: See what I'm wondering about is 12 whether you would be a fair and impartial juror on this issue 13 because, understandably you've had favorable -- 14 JUROR NO. 205: Oh, I see what you mean. 15 MR. SMITH: -- treatment with Prozac because 16 your doctor has told you that he thinks it's safe. Would that 17 spill over into your verdict here? 18 JUROR NO. 205: Oh, no. I see what you mean. 19 MR. SMITH: Why wouldn't it spill over? I would 20 think it would. 21 JUROR NO. 205: Okay. I know it's been safe for 22 my daughter and it's safe for me, but we're the only two that 23 I know that have taken the Prozac personally. But I -- it's 24 just not enough -- I don't know enough about the whole case. 25 I can't, you know, I don't know how to put it but, I mean, I 218 1 can't form an opinion until I could hear more, is what I'm 2 saying. 3 MR. SMITH: Could you put your experience aside 4 in making your opinion? 5 JUROR NO. 205: Oh, definitely. Definitely. 6 That's what I mean. I would, you know, you'd have to hear 7 both sides. 8 MR. SMITH: Now, as I understand it, you also 9 were a neighbor of Mr. Wesbecker's? 10 JUROR NO. 205: Well, we -- 11 MR. SMITH: We may have talked to you about 12 this. 13 JUROR NO. 205: Yeah. In the same subdivision, 14 but our homes were quite a ways from each other. In fact, I 15 didn't even know the gentleman. Like I said, I had heard it 16 on the radio as I was coming back from the country, and when I 17 got into the subdivision I saw the police cars and the TV 18 crews, but I didn't associate the two. And I went on to my 19 house and my husband told me then that that was what it was. 20 MR. SMITH: I don't recall the names of the 21 witnesses, but couple of the neighbors' depositions were taken 22 in this case. Maybe Mr. Stopher could tell us. I believe you 23 earlier stated that that wouldn't have any effect on you? 24 JUROR NO. 205: No. And I talked to a couple of 25 neighbors, but I don't know their names because I didn't know 219 1 them. 2 MR. SMITH: Did they tell you anything about Mr. 3 Wesbecker's character or mental condition? 4 JUROR NO. 205: All they said was they just very 5 seldom ever saw him going to work, coming in to work or going 6 to the grocery store and back, something like that, he never 7 went out walking or jogging or sitting on his front porch, 8 things like that. 9 MR. SMITH: I'm sorry it took a little longer. 10 JUDGE POTTER: Anything else, Mr. Smith? Mr. 11 Stopher? 12 MR. STOPHER: No. No questions. 13 JUDGE POTTER: Ms. Gregory, I'm going to remind 14 you again of my admonition not to let anybody communicate to 15 you, don't talk to other jurors, that includes watching TV or 16 reading the newspaper about it. If you will -- I'm going to 17 excuse you till 1:00 tomorrow afternoon, if you will be over 18 in the jury pool at 1:00. 19 JUROR NO. 205: All right. 20 JUDGE POTTER: Thank you, ma'am. 21 MR. SMITH: I'm going to move to strike Ms. 22 Gregory based on the fact that her doctor has expressed an 23 opinion that the drug is safe. Regardless of what she said, I 24 just think that the general tenor of her demeanor and her 25 responses would indicate that she would have difficulty 220 1 putting this aside and that she would be an inappropriate 2 juror for this case. 3 JUDGE POTTER: What do you say, Mr. Stopher? 4 MR. STOPHER: Judge, I would think that tenor or 5 demeanor of a witness are the kind of things that call for 6 peremptory strikes and not strikes for cause. What she said 7 was that impressed me that she should be kept is that she 8 doesn't know enough about this case to begin to form an 9 opinion and that it would be unfair to judge this case based 10 on her experience or her daughter's experience. So if we go 11 outside of those answers, we're second-guessing what she said 12 and basing this on tenor and demeanor, which are subjective 13 things. 14 JUDGE POTTER: Well, I think I can look at the 15 witness's tenor and demeanor, but when I started this I 16 thought maybe if a close family member was taking Prozac that 17 might be grounds to take them off the panel, but after 18 listening to her, I'm going to deny the motion to strike her 19 for cause. 20 SHERIFF CECIL: Ms. Heck is letting Mr. Miller, 21 Juror No. 129 go before her because he needs to be elsewhere. 22 JUDGE POTTER: How are you, Mr. Miller? Would 23 you have a seat. 24 JUROR NO. 129: Sure. Thank you. 25 JUDGE POTTER: I'd remind you, sir, you're still 221 1 under oath. These gentlemen may like to ask you a question. 2 MR. STOPHER: Somehow I've got you way back here 3 in the back. I apologize. It took me a minute... 4 MR. FREEMAN: Get him out of order and he's 5 really in trouble. 6 MR. STOPHER: That's all it takes. You gave us 7 so much information, sir, that I'm hopefully not going to keep 8 you as long as it takes me to... You mentioned that you have 9 four years -- and it's partly cut off on here, sir -- at 10 Olivette Nazarene University; it's partially cut off from 11 here. It looks like it's Christian education. 12 JUROR NO. 129: Bachelor of Arts Degree in 13 Christian education, which I actually completed in three years 14 and stayed one additional year and fulfilled all the 15 requirements for elementary education, as well. 16 MR. STOPHER: And then if I understand 17 correctly, you spent two years at a school connected with the 18 the Salvation Army, if I'm reading this correctly? 19 JUROR NO. 129: Yes. Right. The school for 20 officers' training in Chicago. 21 MR. STOPHER: And you completed that? 22 JUROR NO. 129: Yes, sir. That was a two-year 23 program. 24 MR. STOPHER: And then you also had one year 25 part time at Kent State University in Ohio? 222 1 JUROR NO. 129: Yes. Right. 2 MR. STOPHER: What were you studying there, sir? 3 JUROR NO. 129: Well, when I took ACT tests for 4 college entrance exams I scored high enough that while I was a 5 senior in high school I was allowed to take evening courses at 6 Kent State while I was a senior in high school, so that's why 7 I was just part time. So I was just taking basic credits, 8 English and so forth. 9 MR. STOPHER: And then at the present time, if I 10 understand, you're self-employed as a minister or pastor? 11 JUROR NO. 129: Yes, sir. Yes. 12 MR. STOPHER: Where are you self-employed with 13 the -- 14 JUROR NO. 129: I'm at Calvary Church of the 15 Nazarene in Fern Creek, which is a suburb of Louisville. 16 MR. STOPHER: And forgive my being not as 17 religious probably or at least informed as I should be. 18 JUROR NO. 129: Well, the Nazarene church is a 19 denomination. Theologically, we would be in the neighborhood 20 with Methodist. Salvation Army also is the same theological 21 persuasion. 22 MR. STOPHER: Okay. Mr. Miller, you made the 23 statement on here that, "Any health-related company which 24 would knowingly market a product which has adverse effects 25 would be a company wanting to lose customers and go out of 223 1 business," exclamation point. 2 JUROR NO. 129: Right. 3 MR. STOPHER: Can you explain what you meant by 4 that, sir? 5 JUROR NO. 129: Sure. I don't think any 6 pharmaceutical company would knowingly market a product that 7 it knew had adverse effects. I think they would be cutting 8 their own throat to do such a thing as that. They're just 9 inviting bankruptcy. 10 MR. STOPHER: You then went on to say, sir, that 11 pharmaceutical companies are involved in their own best 12 interest; do you mean by that profit? 13 JUROR NO. 129: No. It would be in their own 14 best interest to market a product which would be healthy for 15 their consumers. I mean, it stands to reason that it wouldn't 16 exist as a company if they didn't. I don't know how much at 17 liberty I am to go beyond the specific point that's asked. 18 But I think the FDA and the pharmaceutical companies 19 themselves, neither ones are infallible, I should say, but 20 both of them I think do the best job that they can to protect 21 people. There would be no reason for them to do less than 22 that. 23 MR. STOPHER: Mr. Miller, you told us in your 24 answers that your mother is currently taking a mild 25 antidepressant. 224 1 JUROR NO. 129: Yes, sir. 2 MR. STOPHER: And that you seriously doubt that 3 it is Prozac? 4 JUROR NO. 129: Right. I'm sure it's nothing 5 that's -- with this being on the news she would have mentioned 6 it if -- she would have said, "Oh, that's what I'm taking," 7 and she's made no such comment to that effect. 8 MR. STOPHER: I take it that her experience with 9 depression or with an antidepressant has not made you form any 10 opinion about the safety of the antidepressants in general or 11 Prozac in particular? 12 JUROR NO. 129: Other than the fact that it's 13 helped her. After my father passed away, she had a real hard 14 time handling that, and so the doctor prescribed a mild 15 antidepressant to help her with that. 16 MR. STOPHER: Okay. You indicated that you have 17 no opinion about this case and what caused Mr. Wesbecker to do 18 what he did, but yet I think I understand you to say that 19 you've also read and suspected that even your mother had read 20 about this particular incident; am I right? 21 JUROR NO. 129: I don't subscribe to the paper 22 and I don't have a television, so I really am not very 23 familiar with most of the details of the case. I've heard of 24 it just in passing, but I've not discussed it with anyone, and 25 really don't have enough information to form an opinion. 225 1 MR. STOPHER: Okay. Do you have a belief, sir, 2 that people are not responsible for what they do on occasions? 3 JUROR NO. 129: Yes. The human body is 4 extremely complex, and I think there are biological factors 5 that can come into play that would, you know, that people 6 would act outside of what they would do if they were in their 7 own full conscious mind, if that's exactly the right way to 8 say that or not. But, yeah, I think there are times when 9 people would be capable of doing things that they were not 10 really aware of what they were doing or the implications of 11 it. 12 MR. STOPHER: Do you believe that there could be 13 psychological things that would cause someone to commit mass 14 murders outside of their control? 15 JUROR NO. 16: I think it would be possible. 16 MR. STOPHER: And do you have a belief that 17 medications or prescription medications can cause people to do 18 those kinds of things? 19 JUROR NO. 16: I would say it was possible; I 20 don't know whether it's very likely. Going back again, the 21 pharmaceutical companies and the FDA both, I think, although 22 they're not perfect, certainly do everything they can to 23 prevent that very sort of thing to happen. But it's such a 24 complicated issue, you know, one person or a whole group of 25 people that may go through a test with a particular medication 226 1 and no ill effects may show up in them, but people are 2 individuals and certain people who weren't in that test group, 3 they may have a totally different kind of reaction to 4 something that somebody else had or did not have in the test 5 group. 6 MR. STOPHER: Does that make the drug unsafe, in 7 your opinion, for the public? 8 JUROR NO. 16: I don't see how you could ever 9 possibly guarantee anything to be 100-percent safe for 10 everybody unless you test everybody, and obviously that's not 11 realistic. 12 MR. STOPHER: Mr. Miller, just one final 13 question, sir. Do you believe that people can commit or be 14 caused to commit murders or mass murders not as a result of 15 some biological reaction, so to speak, but as a result of 16 simply a violent personality or demeanor, character, whatever 17 you want to call it? 18 JUROR NO. 16: Yes. Absolutely. In fact, I 19 think our society tends to inculcate that more and more in 20 people. You got a problem with somebody, you solve it with a 21 gun. And I wish that wasn't true, but I... 22 MR. STOPHER: I take it that -- do you know any 23 reason, given the fact that you haven't read the newspapers 24 and television, any reason why you think you're influenced or 25 prejudiced or biased in this case and that you couldn't sit 227 1 and decide it fairly and impartially based on proof and the 2 evidence that you hear? 3 JUROR NO. 16: No. I don't think so. You can 4 tell from my handwriting, I tend to be a very logical, very 5 straightforward kind of person. 6 MR. STOPHER: More so than me, sir. 7 JUROR NO. 16: I see. And I would have never 8 made it with that kind of handwriting to be a doctor. 9 MR. STOPHER: But I take it the answer to my 10 question is you do feel you do have an open mind and can 11 decide it based on what you hear. 12 JUROR NO. 16: Yes, sir. 13 MR. STOPHER: Thank you sir. 14 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Smith? 15 MR. SMITH: Mr. Miller, I'm Paul Smith, and I 16 represent the plaintiffs in this case who brought this suit 17 alleging that Eli Lilly and Company, the manufacturer of 18 Prozac, that their conduct in making this drug and knowing the 19 risk about this drug, makes them responsible for Mr. 20 Wesbecker's actions on September 14th, 1989. 21 JUROR NO. 16: Yes, sir. 22 MR. SMITH: Does that sound logical to you? 23 JUROR NO. 16: Well, we go back again. I don't 24 think anybody's infallible. I think a company could have 25 accidentally had causes or effects to the medication that 228 1 weren't particularly things that they had planned or desired 2 the drug to do. I have to add, again, I think most companies 3 would try to sort out as much of that as they could, but 4 they're not infallible. It's such a complex sort of thing 5 dealing with the human body. I don't know how anybody could 6 come up with something that could be foolproof. 7 MR. SMITH: It sounds to me like by virtue of 8 the complexity of the things that you would have difficulty 9 finding a pharmaceutical company responsible for their 10 medication; is that right? 11 JUROR NO. 16: Well, I would tend to say that 12 they would probably have done their best to weed that out, but 13 I don't say that it's beyond the possibility that they could 14 have done something that for particular individuals maybe in 15 the test group it proved fine, but what about this individual 16 out here. Everybody is different even in our own biological 17 makeup and so forth. 18 MR. SMITH: It sounds like you have some 19 preconceived ideas about the responses of a pharmaceutical 20 manufacturer and that that is that they wouldn't put a product 21 on the market if it was -- unless it was safe because that 22 would be against their financial interest. 23 JUROR NO. 129: I think they would try to 24 prevent that from happening. I don't know that they would 25 succeed. 229 1 MR. SMITH: If you don't read a newspaper and 2 don't watch television, where do you get your information, 3 sir? 4 JUROR NO. 129: From the radio, National Public 5 Radio. All Things Considered is on each evening here from 6 five to six-thirty. That's where I get most of my news from. 7 MR. SMITH: Any other sources? Do you read 8 magazines, anything of that nature? 9 JUROR NO. 129: Not any kind of news magazines, 10 no. There is, you know, articles or magazines that relate to 11 my profession that I would read, such as the Herald of 12 Holiness and the Preacher magazine and that sort of thing, but 13 there's nothing in there that's a news sort of item. 14 MR. SMITH: Where do you get your opinion that 15 the FDA is doing a good job of protecting the American public? 16 JUROR NO. 129: Well, how many cases of this 17 sort of thing even ever come up, you know, where a company is 18 questioned as to whether its medication has serious side 19 effects? It would seem to me that the cases are so rare and 20 so few that, evidently, they must be doing a pretty good job 21 of guaranteeing -- I'm going off a little bit in the religious 22 end of it. I'm not too big on the abortion side of the issue, 23 very much pro life, so I do know that the French pill, UR-2 or 24 something or whatnot, that is an abortion-inducing pill or the 25 birth control pill, that the FDA hasn't let that in because it 230 1 hasn't been tested long enough. It's fine over in Europe but 2 we want to see results like maybe six years of testing. So it 3 sounds to me like they must be pretty carefully jump all the 4 hurdles that the pill has to jump before it's presented to the 5 public. 6 MR. SMITH: It sounds to me that you're of the 7 opinion that since you don't see much of these types of 8 lawsuits where a group of individuals such as this are 9 claiming that a drug caused a particular human reaction, that 10 you think it's unlikely that that drug caused that reaction or 11 that it's unlikely that the pharmaceutical manufacturer knew 12 of that reaction? 13 JUROR NO. 129: I would say that -- I would 14 think that it would be foolish for a company to do that sort 15 of thing, but I think it was also foolish for Exxon to be so 16 loose with their captains and so forth and the oil crash that 17 happened with -- I don't think the corporations are foolproof. 18 MR. SMITH: Would you hold Exxon responsible if 19 you were a juror in that case? 20 JUROR NO. 129: Well, I would have to say based 21 on the limited knowledge that I have, yes. But actually 22 sitting in on the jury, I really couldn't say until I had 23 heard all of the evidence in both directions. But they were 24 found guilty by a jury, so I would assume that they must have 25 been. 231 1 MR. SMITH: Well, do you know whether or not the 2 United States Food and Drug Administration actually tests 3 pharmaceutical manufacturing -- pharmaceutical products? 4 JUROR NO. 129: I can't say that it's an area of 5 expertise for me. 6 MR. SMITH: Are you assuming that they do? 7 JUROR NO. 129: I'm assuming that the Food and 8 Drug Administration must have something to do with approving 9 drugs. 10 MR. SMITH: What's your knowledge concerning 11 what their role is in approving drugs? 12 JUROR NO. 129: I would assume that they run 13 tests in laboratories, and they must have to have certain 14 research or something done, but I really don't know what the 15 mechanics of it are. 16 MR. SMITH: What if you learned that the Food 17 and Drug Administration did not test Prozac in their 18 laboratories? 19 JUROR NO. 129: I would say I was very surprised 20 because I thought it was something that they would do. 21 MR. SMITH: What if you learned that the Food 22 and Drug Administration relied exclusively on Eli Lilly in the 23 testing of this product and simply reviewed the data 24 generated? 25 JUROR NO. 129: I'd say I'm not sure that's a 232 1 good way of handling it. 2 MR. SMITH: What if I told you that Eli Lilly 3 and Company designed the clinical trials in this process and 4 that those clinical trials were reported by Lilly to the FDA? 5 Would that surprise you that that's the way the process 6 worked? 7 JUROR NO. 129: Yes, it is. It is a surprise to 8 me. Is that a hypothetical question or actually the way it's 9 done. 10 MR. SMITH: It's a fact, sir. 11 JUDGE POTTER: In this case it's a hypothetical 12 question. If you're selected to sit on the jury you'll hear 13 all the facts. 14 I'm going to excuse you till 1:00 tomorrow 15 afternoon. Please go to the jury pool area and someone will 16 hopefully come get you sooner than they did today. Don't let 17 anyone communicate with you about this case. And everyone so 18 far I've said don't watch TV or read the newspaper, but for 19 you I'll say turn the radio down. 20 JUROR NO. 129: I turned it off this morning. I 21 found a free place to park, too -- I-64. 22 JUDGE POTTER: Thank you very much, Mr. Miller. 23 Don't form or express opinions about it or of course talk to 24 other jurors. Report back at 1:00 tomorrow. 25 JUROR NO. 129: If I may ask, what is your name, 233 1 ma'am? I can't remember. 2 MS. ZETTLER: My name is Nancy Zettler. 3 JUROR NO. 129: Zettler. I remembered everyone 4 else's names, but I was thinking, now, it started with a Z. 5 Thank you. 6 MR. SMITH: I suggest that we both agree that 7 this man should be excused. 8 MR. STOPHER: No. I don't agree with that. 9 MR. SMITH: Move to strike Mr. Miller. 10 JUDGE POTTER: Why, Mr. Smith? He wandered this 11 way and that. Sometimes he sounded like he was good for Mr. 12 Stopher, sometimes for you, but he did -- he answered every 13 question in a precise, like-his-handwriting way. What did he 14 say that you think -- 15 MR. SMITH: I think he's got an unreasonable 16 view of the world and, as such, his opinions are subject to 17 being moved with each party who's speaking; therefore, he 18 could not be a good juror. 19 JUDGE POTTER: And you get the last closing 20 argument, so that ought to be to your advantage. These people 21 are obviously going to wander close to saying something, but 22 it's common sense for peopleto say you wouldn't expect a 23 company to put out something that's bad, and you're going 24 to -- 25 MS. ZETTLER: The man is one can short of a six 234 1 pack, Judge. 2 JUDGE POTTER: Well, I'm not going to -- I'm 3 going to deny the motion for cause. 4 Are you Ms. Heck? I'll remind you you're still 5 under oath. These people may want to ask you a few questions. 6 MR. SMITH: If you'll give us a second here, Ms. 7 Heck. Is it Peck or Heck? 8 JUROR NO. 11: Heck, H-E-C-K. There's a Mr. 9 Peck here. 10 JUDGE POTTER: No. 11. Okay. Mr. Smith? 11 MR. SMITH: Ms. Heck, we have a few questions 12 for you. As I understand it, you work for Accordia of 13 Louisville. 14 JUROR NO. 11: Yes. 15 MR. SMITH: What is that? 16 JUROR NO. 11: It's an insurance brokerage firm. 17 MR. SMITH: We're still looking for your 18 questionnaire. As I understand it -- I made some notes last 19 night, it was getting late -- there was a family history of 20 psychiatric conditions? 21 JUROR NO. 11: There was -- my sister, who is 22 now about 50 some-odd years old, when she was 13 she had a 23 nervous breakdown and was committed to -- I don't know, it was 24 at Baptist Hospital over there on Barret Avenue, the 25 psychiatric ward. She was committed there for a little while. 235 1 One other thing, too, I did neglect to put down 2 there and I forgot about. My father also had some shock 3 treatment there at Baptist. It's been many, many years ago. 4 MR. SMITH: And you say you had a co-worker or 5 have a co-worker who is on Prozac? 6 JUROR NO. 11: Well, that was probably around 7 two years ago when I knew Mary Houston, and I don't know if 8 she's still on it or not. She was on it about a year and a 9 half, two years ago, that I know of. 10 MR. SMITH: Is Mary Houston a friend of yours? 11 JUROR NO. 11: Well, I worked with her. 12 MR. SMITH: Did she report to you -- 13 JUROR NO. 11: No. No. 14 MR. SMITH: -- how Prozac worked with her, 15 whether it helped, didn't help, had bad effect, good effect? 16 JUROR NO. 11: She never said. I knew she was 17 on it from a couple people that worked there, and she -- I 18 think she had mentioned to me that she was on Prozac, but she 19 really didn't -- you know, it was like no effect to her. 20 MR. SMITH: Do you have any opinion concerning 21 whether or not Prozac had played any part in Mr. Wesbecker's 22 actions on September 14th, 1989? 23 JUROR NO. 11: No. I have no opinion on that. 24 MR. SMITH: Do you know of any reason why you 25 couldn't be a fair and impartial juror in this case, Ms. Heck? 236 1 JUROR NO. 11: Not that I know of. 2 MR. SMITH: Thank you. 3 MR. STOPHER: Ms. Heck, I don't want to pry into 4 your business any more than you want to have that done to you, 5 but I think you understand the reason why. On Question 13 you 6 were asked: "Are you or any member of your family or anyone 7 close to you currently being treated for depression or any 8 other psychiatric disorder," and your answer was, "No. 9 Treatment discontinued in November 1993." Who does that refer 10 to? 11 JUROR NO. 11: That goes back to when my 12 daughter, my oldest daughter who is 24, she has a child who is 13 almost 15 months old. She was living with me up until two or 14 three weeks ago, something like that. But back a year or 15 whatever, a year ago, when the baby was first born there was a 16 lot of conflict in our home and she left, and the baby was 17 maybe a week or two old. And I was very concerned and worried 18 about him and got real depressed when she left and had -- I 19 had some treatment then and they had me on an antidepressant. 20 MR. STOPHER: All right. So the treatment that 21 was discontinued was the treatment of you and not of your 22 daughter? 23 JUROR NO. 11: Right. Right. It was treatment 24 of me. 25 MR. STOPHER: Okay. And was that treatment 237 1 satisfactory for you? 2 JUROR NO. 11: Right. Uh-huh. 3 MR. STOPHER: I take it it was with another 4 antidepressant and not with Prozac? 5 JUROR NO. 11: I really don't remember. If you 6 ever gave me some names, I could probably say yes, that was 7 it, but I don't remember what it was. 8 MR. STOPHER: I don't think we want to go 9 through the list. 10 JUROR NO. 11: It's probably lengthy. 11 MR. STOPHER: I think if I understand, though, 12 correctly, that was the only time that you've had a problem 13 with depression? 14 JUROR NO. 11: Right. Uh-huh. 15 MR. STOPHER: Okay. I take it that your 16 daughter is back home now and that this conflict has resolved 17 itself? 18 JUROR NO. 11: No. Right. The conflict has 19 resolved. The baby's 15 months old, but this happened when 20 the baby was a week or two old. So everything is all worked 21 out and she's out on her own now and everything is smooth. 22 MR. STOPHER: You made the mention of a 23 co-worker at Blue Cross being on Prozac. Did that co-worker 24 have a good or bad experience or do you know? 25 JUROR NO. 11: Like I said, I knew she was on it 238 1 but she didn't seem to have any effects from it that I knew 2 of. 3 MR. STOPHER: And if I understand correctly, 4 you're employed at Blue Cross/Blue Shield -- Accordia, which 5 is similar to Blue Cross/Blue Shield? 6 JUROR NO. 11: Right. We sell Blue Cross/Blue 7 Shield and we also -- it's a brokerage is what it is. 8 Accordia of Louisville is a brokerage. And I don't do 9 anything as far as handling coordination of benefits or 10 anything like that. I'm an administrative assistant in the 11 marketing department. 12 MR. STOPHER: You wrote that down here and I 13 just missed it. 14 JUROR NO. 11: That's fine. 15 JUDGE POTTER: Ms. Heck, I'm going to excuse you 16 till 1:00 tomorrow afternoon. Would you come back to the jury 17 pool area, the assembly hall at 1:00? I'll give you the same 18 admonition I've given you before. Don't let anybody 19 communicate or talk with you about this case, including other 20 jurors family members, TV announcers or somebody on the radio, 21 and also do not form or express opinions about it until it's 22 finally submitted to you. 23 JUROR NO. 11: If another juror says something 24 to us, what is your response to that juror? 25 JUDGE POTTER: You mean over in the jury pool 239 1 area? 2 JUROR NO. 11: Yes. 3 JUDGE POTTER: You just say, "I'm on the case." 4 JUROR NO. 11: I mean, they're with me, they're 5 on this jury. 6 JUDGE POTTER: You can talk about baseball, the 7 weather, whatever you want. But if another juror says, well, 8 do you think this or something about this case, you let me 9 know. I mean, if anybody tries to communicate with you about 10 this case, report it to me, and that would include other 11 jurors. Okay? 12 JUROR NO. 11: I mean, I haven't been -- no one 13 has said, given me their opinion of it or anything. There's 14 this one lady that she just... "They told me not to say 15 anything to anybody," but then she went on talking. 16 JUDGE POTTER: Do you remember which juror that 17 was? 18 JUROR NO. 11: It was Barbara Gentry? It's a G. 19 MR. SMITH: Gregory? 20 JUROR NO. 11: I mean, she really didn't -- I 21 just felt like I don't want to be rude. 22 JUDGE POTTER: Well, you just kind of have to be 23 rude. 24 JUROR NO. 11: I hate to be rude and say, hey, 25 we're not supposed to talk about this. 240 1 JUDGE POTTER: And if she does that, you tell 2 her and you report it to me. 3 MR. SMITH: Did she say something to you about 4 it? 5 JUROR NO. 11: "We're not supposed to say 6 anything; we're supposed to just keep quiet," and I'm, like, 7 okay. 8 JUDGE POTTER: And then what went on? 9 JUROR NO. 11: She just kind of like, she said, 10 "Well, they're asking questions about, you know, what opinions 11 are and if I think it would influence me and things like 12 that." 13 MR. SMITH: Did she tell you what her opinion 14 was? 15 JUROR NO. 11: No. No. 16 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. 17 JUROR NO. 11: But it was just -- it scares me 18 when people -- because I'm turning off the TV. The TV -- the 19 news comes on, I'm leaving, you know. 20 JUDGE POTTER: And you did the proper thing in 21 reporting that to me. Did you notice her talking with other 22 jurors? 23 JUROR NO. 11: She was talking rather loudly 24 when I came on out of the room. 25 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Thank you very much, 241 1 ma'am. 2 JUROR NO. 11: Thank you. 3 MR. SMITH: I renew my request to strike Ms. 4 Gregory. This is the lady, remember, whose doctor -- 5 JUDGE POTTER: Yeah, the next door neighbor and 6 everybody else. Well, remind me at 1:00 and we'll get Ms. 7 Gregory in here and talk to her, because she's been excused 8 till tomorrow at 1:00. 9 MS. ZETTLER: But, Judge, she may -- 10 JUDGE POTTER: She's gone for the day. 11 MS. ZETTLER: But they're going to spend some 12 time together before. 13 JUDGE POTTER: I will try and alert my sheriff 14 to stick close to Ms. Gregory. Remind me to do that tomorrow 15 and have the sheriff stick close. 16 MR. SMITH: It causes the plaintiffs extreme 17 concern. We are extremely concerned about the quality of Ms. 18 Gregory as a witness, and now to learn that she's talking in a 19 loud manner to other jurors and is talking about what is being 20 discussed in here when she was specifically advised by the 21 Court not to do so, we move to strike Ms. Gregory. 22 JUDGE POTTER: Well, let me ask Mr. Stopher, do 23 you have any objections to striking Ms. Gregory? 24 MR. STOPHER: Judge, I think it's premature at 25 this time. I think she said all she said was, "They're asking 242 1 about my opinion," and she didn't give her opinion. So I 2 think that the Court can cure it. 3 JUDGE POTTER: I don't know if I can cure it. 4 MR. SMITH: I submit Mr. Stopher is only taking 5 that position because he likes the opinion Ms. Gregory is 6 expressing. 7 JUDGE POTTER: At this point I think it would be 8 inappropriate to strike Ms. Gregory until we call her back and 9 ask her and find out what she has to say about it. As a 10 matter of fact, we'll get her over here as quickly as we can. 11 I'll alert my sheriff. And I share your concern, but I don't 12 think I can at this point strike her for cause because another 13 juror said what she said. 14 MR. SMITH: I don't want to argue. With all due 15 respect, my concern was did she -- that she should have been 16 struck, in all due respect, and now she's expressing opinions 17 with the panel and may pollute the panel. I just want to make 18 it clear, and I hope I'm not perceived as arguing with the 19 Court. 20 JUDGE POTTER: No. That's fine. 21 Higgs, No. 133. 22 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Higgs, I remind you you're 23 still under oath. These people here may have some questions 24 they want to ask you. Okay. 25 MR. STOPHER: Is it me? I'm Ed Stopher. I 243 1 wanted to ask you a couple of questions about the 2 questionnaire that you filled out, sir. 3 According to my reading of this, either you or 4 somebody that you're real close to owns an AK-47. 5 JUROR NO. 133: I do. 6 MR. STOPHER: You do. 7 JUROR NO. 133: Yes. 8 MR. STOPHER: And there are some other weapons 9 listed, I think, is it SKS? Is that a form of an AK-47? 10 JUROR NO. 133: That's Chinese made, SKS. The 11 Russians produced the AK-47, I believe. 12 MR. STOPHER: A Colt AK-15? 13 JUROR NO. 133: It's similar to an M-16, but you 14 know all the assault rifles were coming into the market, and a 15 few years back Colt wanted to get a little piece of that 16 action, and so they come up with their own assault rifle, 17 which is really a civilianized M-16; it's an AR-15 without the 18 rock and roll on it. 19 MR. STOPHER: And then it says that I guess it's 20 you or maybe it's someone else owns over 40 handguns and 21 shotguns? 22 JUROR NO. 133: Yes, sir. I do myself. 23 MR. STOPHER: Okay. Do you own these weapons as 24 a hunter? 25 JUROR NO. 133: As a hunter, collector, as a 244 1 sportsman, a shooter. I shoot as a -- as a hobby, you know. 2 MR. STOPHER: Do you do that in competition 3 or... 4 JUROR NO. 133: I have shot -- I have shot 5 long-range competition, yes, with my AR-15. The AR-15 is a 6 sporter, and I have shot long range, but I've never had that 7 good of a knack for it, and I just enjoy handgun shooting. 8 And I use my shotgun for hunting squirrels, doves, things ofof 9 that that nature. 10 MR. STOPHER: Where would you fire the AK-47 in 11 this area? 12 JUROR NO. 133: Plenty of fields. I go out to 13 Blevins Gap whenever I'm going to shoot. The gentleman out 14 there that owns the property out there is a good friend of my 15 father's, and he's got like 130 acres out there, and we shoot 16 up against a ravine. Like, his property comes back away from 17 the road and he's got like five miles of road frontage, and we 18 shoot right into that ravine. You can get about a 1600-yard 19 shot off. 20 MR. STOPHER: Do you go to Knob Creek Gun Range? 21 JUROR NO. 133: No. I very seldom ever go up 22 there. It's usually too crowded and way too loud. 23 MR. STOPHER: You also mentioned, sir, that you 24 thought that prescription drugs should be 100-percent safe. 25 Can you tell me what you meant by that? 245 1 JUROR NO. 133: Well, you know, I have a child, 2 you know, and if my child is taking a prescription drug I 3 would like to feel that the companies are going to test that 4 as much as possible, you know. But, you know, I just -- but 5 other than any reason than that, you know, I just -- I just 6 feel that they should take all means to test a drug or a new 7 thing, you know, as they possibly could. 8 MR. STOPHER: Okay. All right. You recognize 9 that someone could have a bad reaction to a drug? 10 JUROR NO. 133: Well, yeah. I understand that 11 because, you know, I've noticed -- I've been around people 12 that's had different reactions to different chemicals, you 13 know, because I've been in the service and I've seen people 14 react differently to different things. 15 MR. STOPHER: Have you been in combat, sir? 16 JUROR NO. 133: No, not actual. 17 MR. STOPHER: Have you been sent overseas in 18 connection with your tour of duty in the service? 19 JUROR NO. 133: No. 20 MR. STOPHER: Are you in the reserves now, sir? 21 JUROR NO. 133: No. No. I'm completely 22 detached. 23 MR. STOPHER: And about how long ago were you 24 in? 25 JUROR NO. 133: Approximately three years, 246 1 something like that. I was in for a short while. 2 MR. STOPHER: And was that in the army? 3 JUROR NO. 133: Marine Corps. 4 MR. STOPHER: Marine Corps. Do you have or have 5 you ever purchased full metal jacket ammunition for your 6 AK-47? 7 JUROR NO. 133: No. 8 MR. STOPHER: Would you use that kind of 9 ammunition? 10 JUROR NO. 133: Are you talking about neoprene 11 tipped? 12 MR. STOPHER: I'm talking about a Chinese-made 13 round that has a full metal jacket projectile. 14 JUROR NO. 133: Okay. I'm not real sure. You 15 know, I'm not real sure about what you mean. There's a lot of 16 different rounds. 17 MR. STOPHER: There are. And I wish I could 18 describe it for you more carefully. 19 JUROR NO. 133: Really the only round that I 20 know right now that is illegal is I think the... 21 JUDGE POTTER: Teflon? 22 JUROR NO. 133: Teflon-coated rounds are 23 illegal. 24 MR. STOPHER: No. This is the opposite. 25 JUROR NO. 133: I believe I have at one time or 247 1 another. 2 MR. STOPHER: That's ammunition that, as I 3 understand it, is only used by the military in warfare. 4 JUROR NO. 133: No. I'm pretty sure. 5 Everything that I purchased, I purchased at legal gun stores, 6 so if that's been full metal jacket, I'm sure I have. 7 MR. STOPHER: Okay. I take it, then, that if 8 Joseph Wesbecker was involved in aggregating, compiling a 9 stockpile of guns, an arsenal, that you would not find that 10 purchasing activity to be in any way indicative of an intent 11 to commit homicide? 12 JUROR NO. 133: Absolutely not. You know, I 13 know why I have them, and I know I feel that everybody has the 14 right to have them. And I'd be perfectly honest with you, a 15 lot of the reasons and a lot of the weapons I have today is 16 because I guess a lot of the reason is because somebody's 17 trying to tell me I can't have them, and so I'll get them 18 before they tell me I can't have them, and I'll have them and 19 that will be that. 20 MR. STOPHER: Right. Do you have an opinion, 21 sir, as to whether or not a person who has a history of mental 22 illness should be allowed to purchase an AK-47? 23 JUROR NO. 133: Absolutely not. I mean -- 24 MR. STOPHER: And if a person filled out the 25 form, I forget what it's called, a 749 or -- you know what I 248 1 mean, the form that you fill out when you buy a firearm, there 2 are a series of questions on there. Have you ever filled out 3 one of those forms? 4 JUROR NO. 133: Quite a few. 5 MR. STOPHER: And there is a section on there 6 that deals with mental illness; correct? 7 JUROR NO. 133: Yes. 8 MR. STOPHER: What about if the purchaser lies 9 or doesn't tell the truth on that? 10 JUROR NO. 133: Well, I don't think that that's 11 a good idea. I mean, I wouldn't like for that to happen if I 12 had a choice for it not to happen, but I believe that we're 13 coming up with -- the government's coming up with a little 14 better programs. I'm not altogether against a five-day 15 waiting period, not any kind of waiting period. The only 16 think I'm against is somebody telling me I can't have 17 something. 18 MR. STOPHER: I understand. If I understand 19 correctly at the present time, you told us that you work as a 20 driver and you do some over-the-road trips from time to time? 21 JUROR NO. 133: Yes. I have -- right now I'm on 22 the Chicago bid. Like, if I was at work when I start at 8:00 23 Monday night and I'll go in at 8:00, I'll go to Chicago, hook 24 and load and come back. I turn five a week. 25 MR. STOPHER: One final question, sir. In this 249 1 case, you're going to hear a great deal of evidence about 2 Joseph Wesbecker and about mental illness, about the 3 acquisition of assault weapons of various types and 4 ammunition. Do you have an opinion as to whether or not that 5 sort of activity is related to Prozac or not related to 6 Prozac, is related to mental illness or not related to mental 7 illness? Do you have opinions on those convoluted issues and 8 complex questions? 9 JUROR NO. 133: Well, actually, no, because, 10 see, I know nothing of this case. I didn't even -- see, I'm I 11 guess what you might say a perfect juror, if there is a 12 perfect juror, because my life involves an 80,000-pound 13 vehicle, and I mainly try to stay focused on that. 14 MR. STOPHER: Behind the wheel and on the road 15 ahead? 16 JUROR NO. 133: That's right. And I never hear 17 any news. I didn't know about this case. I don't read the 18 paper or watch the news. 19 MR. STOPHER: So I take it you don't know of any 20 reason why you can't sit and decide this case fairly, based on 21 the evidence that you hear? 22 JUROR NO. 133: I would not hold it against him 23 whether or not because of the weapons, no. 24 MR. STOPHER: That's all I have, sir. Thank 25 you. 250 1 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Smith? 2 MR. SMITH: Mr. Stopher has taken his time and 3 my time. 4 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Higgs, I'm going to excuse 5 you, and you do not have to come back until 1:00 tomorrow. 6 And if you will be at the jury pool room over there at 1:00 7 tomorrow. I'm giving you the same admonition. Don't let 8 anybody communicate with you or talk to you about any topic 9 connected with this trial. Don't discuss it with anybody else 10 including other jurors. 11 JUROR NO. 133: I broke a table in my house last 12 night turning off the news, my little footstool table. My 13 wife's going to kill me. I was tripping across everything 14 trying to get over there. 15 JUDGE POTTER: Thank you very much, sir, We'll 16 see you back here at 1:00 tomorrow. 17 Mr. Hollifield. 18 Mr. Hollifield, I'm going to remind you, sir, 19 that you're still under oath and these gentlemen may want to 20 ask you a question or two, and I think it's Mr. Smith's turn. 21 MR. SMITH: Let me find you on my list, Mr. 22 Hollifield. 23 JUROR NO. 224: I'm 224. 24 MR. SMITH: Yeah. But they're not in that 25 order. 251 1 Mr. Hollifield, I can't help but noticing that 2 you have a limp. Can I ask you -- be so bold as to ask you 3 what the nature of your limp is? 4 JUROR NO. 224: I had polio when I was a 5 youngster in 1945. 6 MR. SMITH: Several of my clients are in 7 wheelchairs and on canes, and I was just wondering if that had 8 been a result of an accident or -- 9 JUROR NO. 224: No. It was polio back before 10 the vaccine and serum. 11 MR. SMITH: What kind of degree did you get from 12 Georgetown College? 13 JUROR NO. 224: Bachelor of Arts. 14 MR. SMITH: And you are currently working as 15 what? 16 JUROR NO. 224: I'm with the Automobile Club, 17 and I work in the marketing department. 18 MR. SMITH: What specifically do you do, sir? 19 JUROR NO. 224: I take care of all direct mail 20 that we do, other marketing things. We have sales 21 representatives, supervise any type of sales that we have. 22 MR. SMITH: I believe you know John Stein's 23 sister; is that right? 24 JUROR NO. 224: Yes. Yes. 25 MR. SMITH: Anything about that relationship 252 1 that you think would affect your judgment in this case? 2 JUROR NO. 224: I don't think so; no, sir. 3 MR. SMITH: That's all I have, Your Honor. 4 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Stopher? 5 MR. STOPHER: Mr. Hollifield, I take it that you 6 like Emma Stein? 7 JUROR NO. 224: I have no reason not to like 8 her. 9 MR. STOPHER: And you know that she's from a big 10 family? 11 JUROR NO. 224: No, I didn't know that. 12 MR. STOPHER: I think I understood you to say 13 the other day that you have met John Stein? 14 JUROR NO. 224: I shook hands with John Stein, 15 Sr., at a Sales and Marketing Executives meeting. I met him 16 at a function. 17 MR. STOPHER: And are you aware that his son and 18 Emma's brother was shot in the head by Mr. Wesbecker? 19 JUROR NO. 224: I was not until about three or 20 four days ago, someone told me that that was -- she has never 21 discussed it and somebody just -- that's how I knew that I 22 knew somebody in the group yesterday. 23 MR. STOPHER: Who was it three or four days ago 24 that told you about this? 25 JUROR NO. 224: Emma's supervisor, I believe, 253 1 Mike Shannon. 2 MR. STOPHER: How did that come about? 3 JUROR NO. 224: I told him that I would probably 4 be hard to get hold of this week because I was on jury duty, 5 and he said, "Maybe you'll be on that Prozac jury." And I 6 said, "Well, I don't know. I just have to report." And he 7 said, "Well, you do know that Emma's brother was shot in the 8 occurrence," and I said, "No, I didn't know that." That was 9 the end of the conversation. 10 MR. STOPHER: He didn't tell you anything about 11 any of the other -- 12 JUROR NO. 224: No. 13 MR. STOPHER: -- family issues and sympathy 14 issues involved with regard to him? 15 JUROR NO. 224: No. Just simply that Emma's 16 brother was shot when this happened. 17 MR. STOPHER: If you find out, sir, that he was 18 very severely and tragically injured as a result of that 19 gunshot wound to the head and has a tough road ahead of him 20 the rest of his life, is it going to make it difficult for you 21 to decide the case against him in the event that that should 22 be the way that it should otherwise be decided? 23 JUROR NO. 224: No, sir, not if the evidence 24 would be there. I have no feeling either way at this point. 25 MR. STOPHER: Obviously you would agree with me, 254 1 sir, that he deserves a lot of sympathy and a lot of concern 2 and a lot of support? 3 JUROR NO. 224: Uh-huh. Yes, sir. 4 MR. STOPHER: And the fact that he deserves 5 that, you don't think that's going to influence you? 6 JUROR NO. 224: No, sir. I don't think so. 7 MR. STOPHER: You think you could meet his 8 sister at work and get along even if you should decide against 9 him? 10 JUROR NO. 224: Yes, sir. Emma and I do not 11 have a close relationship. I know who she is, but it's not a 12 real close relationship. 13 MR. STOPHER: But close or not, sir, sometimes 14 these things are difficult, particularly when someone is so 15 tragically hurt. But it's not going to influence you or 16 bother you? 17 JUROR NO. 224: No, sir. 18 MR. STOPHER: Those are all the questions I 19 have, Judge. 20 MR. FREEMAN: Thank you. 21 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Hollifield, I'm going to 22 excuse you till 1:00 tomorrow afternoon. You do not have to 23 be down here until 1:00. And would you go to the jury 24 assembly area over in -- 25 JUROR NO. 224: The pool room? 255 1 JUDGE POTTER: -- the pool room, yes, in the 2 other building. Also, I'm going to give you the same 3 admonition I've given you each time. Do not permit anybody to 4 talk with you or communicate with you about this case, and 5 that includes family and friends at the newspaper or TV. And 6 also do not form or express opinions about it and do not 7 discuss it with the other jurors. For you, sir, you can stand 8 in recess until 1:00 tomorrow afternoon. Thank you, sir. 9 (PROCEEDINGS CONCLUDED THIS DATE AT 5:40 P.M.) 10 * * * 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 256 1 STATE OF KENTUCKY )( )( Sct. 2 COUNTY OF JEFFERSON )( 3 I, JULIA K. McBRIDE, Notary Public, State of 4 Kentucky at Large, hereby certify that the foregoing 5 Transcript of the Proceedings was taken at the time and place 6 stated in the caption; that the appearances were as set forth 7 in the caption; that said proceeding was taken down by me in 8 stenographic notes and thereafter reduced under my supervision 9 to the foregoing typewritten pages and that said typewritten 10 transcript is a true, accurate and complete record of my 11 stenographic notes so taken. 12 I further certify that I am not related by blood 13 or marriage to any of the parties hereto and that I have no 14 interest in the outcome of captioned case. 15 My commission as Notary Public expires December 16 21, 1996. 17 Given under my hand this the__________day of 18 ______________________, 1994, at Louisville, Kentucky. 19 20 21 22 23 _____________________________ 24 NOTARY PUBLIC 25