1 1 NO. 90-CI-06033 JEFFERSON CIRCUIT COURT DIVISION ONE 2 3 4 JOYCE FENTRESS, et al PLAINTIFFS 5 6 VS TRANSCRIPT_OF_THE_PROCEEDINGS __________ __ ___ ___________ 7 8 9 SHEA COMMUNICATIONS, et al DEFENDANTS 10 11 *** 12 13 14 WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 5, 1994 15 VOLUME VIII 16 17 * * * 18 19 20 _____________________________________________________________ 21 REPORTER: JULIA K. McBRIDE Coulter, Shay, McBride & Rice 22 1221 Starks Building 455 South Fourth Avenue 23 Louisville, Kentucky 40202 (502) 582-1627 24 FAX: (502) 587-6299 25 2 1 I_N_D_E_X _ _ _ _ _ 2 Bench Discussion......................................... 4 3 WITNESS: JOSEPH_BALL _______ ______ ____ 4 Examination by Mr. Smith................................. 7 Examination by Mr. Stopher............................... 40 5 Further Examination by Mr. Smith......................... 49 6 WITNESS: MICHAEL_P._CAMPBELL _______ _______ __ ________ 7 Examination by Mr. Smith................................. 52 Examination by Mr. Stopher............................... 94 8 WITNESS: PAUL_GNADINGER _______ ____ _________ 9 Examination by Mr. Smith.................................114 10 Examination by Mr. Stopher...............................129 11 WITNESS: GORDON_C._SCHERER _______ ______ __ _______ 12 Examination by Mr. Smith.................................138 Examination by Mr. Stopher...............................166 13 WITNESS: NANCY_MONTGOMERY_BRYANT _______ _____ __________ ______ 14 Examination by Mr. Smith.................................185 15 Examination by Mr. Stopher...............................224 Further Examination by Mr. Smith.........................233 16 Colloquy.................................................235 17 Reporter's Certificate...................................239 18 19 * * * 20 21 22 23 24 25 3 1 2 A_P_P_E_A_R_A_N_C_E_S _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ 3 4 FOR THE PLAINTIFFS: 5 PAUL L. SMITH Suite 745 6 Campbell Center II 8150 North Central Expressway 7 Dallas, Texas 75206 8 NANCY ZETTLER 1405 West Norwell Lane 9 Schaumburg, Illinois 60193 10 FOR THE DEFENDANT: 11 EDWARD H. STOPHER 12 Boehl, Stopher & Graves 2300 Providian Center 13 Louisville, Kentucky 40202 14 JOE C. FREEMAN, JR. LAWRENCE J. MYERS 15 Freeman & Hawkins 4000 One Peachtree Center 16 303 Peachtree Street, N.E. Atlanta, Georgia 30308 17 18 ALSO PRESENT: 19 DR. W. LEIGH THOMPSON 20 21 22 23 24 25 4 1 The Transcript of the Proceedings, taken before 2 The Honorable John Potter in the Multipurpose Courtroom, Old 3 Jail Office Building, Louisville, Kentucky, commencing on 4 Wednesday, October 5, 1994, at approximately 9:05 A.M., said 5 proceedings occurred as follows: 6 7 * * * 8 9 (BENCH DISCUSSION) 10 JUDGE POTTER: The issue of when a person is 11 impeaching a witness with a prior inconsistent statement, that 12 came up yesterday about how it was to be done or what the 13 parameters were on how it could be done. Mr. Smith, you used 14 a nice phrase and I couldn't hear it the second time, and the 15 rule of whatever -- what did you say, completeness? 16 MR. SMITH: Optional completeness. Rule in 17 Texas. 18 MR. FREEMAN: It's not recognized anywhere else 19 in the whole world. 20 JUDGE POTTER: Let me do this. Okay. It came 21 up twice. The -- and hopefully it won't come up again because 22 I do this -- Mr. Stopher, and just to protect yourself, you 23 need to maybe not pick and choose so much. I don't know that 24 we have a statement for it in Kentucky, but my ruling would be 25 in the future that if a person skips questions, you know, you 5 1 take 41, 42, 45, 47, and read them as if they were a series, I 2 think that is objectionable and I would stop it at that point 3 in open court, make the person go back and put it together 4 because I think that mischaracterizes what the prior testimony 5 would be; however, I don't think a person -- and I talked to 6 another judge on this last night and there's some debate 7 whether the person has the right to make you as part of your 8 initial thing include stuff you don't plan to come in. As 9 long as he reads 41 completely and the answer completely, Mr. 10 Smith, it's just up to you to bring in 42 when you redirect. 11 But I don't think you can take 41, 45 and 49, and read them 12 like they were a series because I think that misstates, you 13 know, what the person said. Obviously, it's probably not good 14 trial tactics to just pick 47, if he's going to come back and 15 read 48 on his redirect to rehabilitate the person, but that's 16 what my rulings would be, and I don't know if I'd call it 17 optional completeness, but I always like nice terms. Did you 18 make that up or there is such a thing? 19 MR. SMITH: I think there is such a thing. 20 Don't ever ask me if I made something up again, Your Honor. I 21 could perjure myself to the Court. 22 JUDGE POTTER: On the prior inconsistent 23 statements, as long as he reads question and answer 24 completely, I don't think you can object yourself at that 25 time. If he, you know, skips in my mind and in effect 6 1 mischaracterizes what the person said, then I think you do 2 have a right to step in. And in all candor, when you finally 3 did step in it was long after that first series so that's 4 maybe why I wasn't as -- didn't rule that way that day. 5 MR. SMITH: I think in all candor, probably Mr. 6 Stopher did not skip a question. I think he read completely 7 the question and answer. When I got back and saw it, it 8 appeared to me initially that he had omitted part of an answer 9 and I don't think he was -- in looking back over it, I 10 certainly think he didn't intentionally didn't read a complete 11 answer, and I think in looking back over the record he did in 12 fact read the entire answer. 13 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Okay. Thank you-all. 14 (BENCH DISCUSSION CONCLUDED) 15 JUDGE POTTER: Good morning, ladies and 16 gentlemen. Ms. Davis, did you have any problem observing the 17 admonition about newspapers and TV and talking to people about 18 this case? 19 MS. DAVIS-SPALDING: No, Your Honor. 20 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Smith, do you want to call 21 your next witness? 22 MR. SMITH: Yes, Your Honor. At this time we 23 would call Officer Joseph Ball. 24 JUDGE POTTER: Sir, would you step down here and 25 raise your right hand, please. 7 1 JOSEPH BALL, after first being duly sworn, was 2 examined and testified as follows: 3 4 JUDGE POTTER: Would you have a seat in the 5 witness box, keep your voice up loud, spell your first and 6 last names and then state it for the jury, please. 7 OFFICER BALL: My name is Joseph A. Ball, Jr. 8 J-O-S-E-P-H; A, period; B-A-L-L; J-R, period. 9 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Answer Mr. Smith's 10 questions. 11 12 EXAMINATION ___________ 13 14 BY_MR._SMITH: __ ___ ______ 15 Q. How old a man are you, Officer Ball? 16 A. Fifty-one. 17 Q. And do you live in Louisville, Texas -- 18 Louisville, Kentucky? 19 A. Yes, sir; I do. 20 Q. Have you ever heard of Lewisville, Texas? 21 A. Yes, sir; I have. 22 Q. Have you lived in Louisville, Kentucky, all your 23 life, sir? 24 A. Yes, sir. 25 Q. When did you graduate from high school? 8 1 A. '61. 2 Q. What do you do for a living, sir? 3 A. I'm a Louisville police officer. 4 Q. How long have you been a Louisville police 5 officer? 6 A. Thirty years. 7 Q. Would you tell the jury what your work 8 experience has been since you graduated from high school? 9 A. Well, I came out of high school and I went into 10 the Louisville Fire Department, where I stayed three years, 11 and transferred over to the Louisville Police Department in 12 '64. 13 Q. How old were you when you transferred to the 14 Louisville Police Department? 15 A. I had just turned 21. 16 Q. Did you have to be 21 to be a Louisville police 17 officer at that time? 18 A. Yes, sir. 19 Q. But you didn't have to be 21 to be a fire 20 officer? 21 A. No, sir. 22 Q. Officer Ball, did you know Joseph Wesbecker 23 before September 14th, 1989? 24 A. Yes, sir; I did. 25 Q. When did you first meet Joseph T. Wesbecker? 9 1 A. It was back about when I was in the sixth grade. 2 Q. Did you-all live in the same neighborhood? 3 A. Yes, sir. We were about five blocks apart. 4 Q. Are you -- would you and Mr. Wesbecker have been 5 the same age? 6 A. Possibly. 7 Q. Close? 8 A. Close. 9 Q. How did you first meet Joe Wesbecker? 10 A. We played on a basketball team together down at 11 St. George. 12 Q. What is St. George? 13 A. St. George is a Catholic church and it was a 14 school at the same time down at 18th and Standard. 15 Q. Did you go to St. George? 16 A. No, sir. I went to Sacred Heart's. 17 Q. Did Mr. Wesbecker go to St. George? 18 A. Yes, sir. 19 Q. Tell us what kind of association you had with 20 Joe Wesbecker early on when you were in the sixth grade. 21 A. Well, it was, you know, like any -- any kid's 22 recreation. We messed around, stayed out and played pinball 23 machines and just different things, talked, sit around, go to 24 different restaurants. 25 Q. What kind of boy was Joseph Wesbecker? 10 1 A. He was a -- like I said, he was like a Fonzie to 2 us. He was one of the -- one of the tougher guys in our 3 neighborhood. 4 Q. You mean tougher because he was meaner or 5 because he was bigger? 6 A. No. Because he was bigger. We were all quite 7 small at the time and for some reason Joey grew, had big arms 8 on him, and we kind of looked up to him. 9 Q. Did he pick on anybody back then? 10 A. No, sir; he never did. 11 Q. What kind of guy -- what kind of disposition did 12 he have then as a child? 13 A. He was very quiet and he had real thick glasses 14 that he was so -- he had this thing about the glasses. He 15 just -- they were Coke-bottle-like-type glasses and he was 16 really embarrassed about them and so -- but he made it up by 17 the way he dressed, you know. 18 Q. How did he dress? 19 A. Well, he would wear his blue jeans real low and 20 rolled his pants legs up, what the style was at the time. 21 Q. That was the late '50s, early '60s? 22 A. Yes. Something like that. And at the time he 23 didn't smoke, that I knew of, but he always carried a pack of 24 cigarettes in his T-shirt -- sleeve of his T-shirt. I think 25 that was the style at the time. 11 1 Q. Did you do that, too? 2 A. No, sir; I didn't. My arms were too small. 3 Q. How long did you run with Joe Wesbecker there 4 initially from the sixth grade? 5 A. Oh, we messed around and did different things 6 until high school. 7 Q. Did you ever see Joe Wesbecker get in a fight 8 from the sixth grade to high school? 9 A. One time; yes, sir. 10 Q. Tell the jury about that. 11 A. I guess I was the cause of it. This one fellow 12 had been picking on me for a long time, for about three 13 months, and I told Joey about it and Joey went over and 14 punched him, and the guy never bothered me anymore. 15 Q. How many times did -- you called him Joey? 16 A. Uh-huh. 17 Q. How many times did Joey punch him? 18 A. One time. 19 Q. And then what happened? 20 A. Then they became friends. 21 Q. Was Joey the type of guy that would hold a 22 grudge? 23 A. Not at the time, no. 24 Q. Did Joey have friends or was he a loner then? 25 A. Joey had friends. He had me, and he was a 12 1 pretty well-liked guy. 2 Q. Did you ever hear -- you told us about the one 3 punch incident. Was there any other occasions back then where 4 Joey was getting in fights or getting in trouble? 5 A. If you would talk to him, you would think that 6 he was the heavyweight champion of the world, but he never -- 7 he never really got in a fight, but he'll tell you that he 8 would beat up so-and-so last night, and this would be sort of 9 a brag on his part to bring up his machoism. 10 Q. Would you find out whether or not he had 11 actually been in a fight? 12 A. Well, he never had no scars to show that he did 13 and that was just his way -- I think that was his way of 14 beating the glasses thing. He was so embarrassed about the 15 glasses. 16 Q. How long was Joey bigger than the rest of you? 17 A. Till about our sophomore year. 18 Q. Then did you go to the same high school that 19 Joey went to? 20 A. No, sir. He went to Flaget and I went to St. X. 21 Q. Did you see him from time to time? 22 A. Just from time to time; right. We kind of 23 lost -- you know, you gain new friends when you leave for high 24 school, you know, going to two different areas, but every time 25 we saw him he would always yell at you and come over and talk, 13 1 and we always had, you know, really been cordial. 2 Q. Did you hear about Joe Wesbecker getting in any 3 fights in high school or being a juvenile delinquent or 4 running around and, as we used to say, raising hell? 5 A. If you would listen to Joey he would tell you 6 that he was a hell-raiser. You would think that he was a 7 hell-raiser, but he really wasn't. He would give you the 8 shirt off his back. He was -- like I say, he was one of the 9 Fonzies of that day. He could talk the talk but couldn't walk 10 the walk. 11 Q. Did you like him? 12 A. Did I like him? 13 Q. Yes. 14 A. Yes, sir. I still do. 15 Q. Do you know of anybody that was Joey Wesbecker's 16 enemy? 17 A. Who didn't like him in high school? Not that I 18 know of. 19 Q. Did you play sports in high school? 20 A. Yes, sir; I did. 21 Q. Did he play sports in high school? 22 A. I think he played one or two years at Flaget, 23 football. 24 Q. Was he any good? 25 A. No. 14 1 Q. Were you any good? 2 A. I grew to be. 3 Q. After you graduated from high school, when was 4 the next time that you saw Joe Wesbecker? 5 A. Well, we used to go by Fawcett-Dearing; it was 6 down at 11th and Broadway before they went out of business and 7 they would put books in the dumpster and, you know, and we'd 8 ride by in our squad car and get into the dumpster and get the 9 books so we wouldn't have to buy them. And one day I ran into 10 Joey sitting on the dock and he was eating his dinner and it 11 was in the summertime, and that was the first time I had saw 12 him for years. And we started talking and every two or three 13 days I'd come by; sometimes I'd come by five times. If I'd 14 come by at that time I'd always pull over and talk to him. 15 Q. What are we talking about timewise, Officer 16 Ball? 17 A. How long? 18 Q. Would this have been early '70s, late '60s? 19 A. I think it would probably be -- probably maybe 20 the late '60s. I don't know when Fawcett-Dearing closed. It 21 was -- it would have to be probably the late '60s, early '70s. 22 Q. What was Fawcett-Dearing? 23 A. It was a printing company. 24 Q. At that time were you a patrol officer in a car 25 or were you a foot officer? 15 1 A. I was in a patrol car. That was my beat. 2 Q. And where was it located? 3 A. I was riding 205, and that was -- that covered I 4 think from Sixth Street to Eighteenth and from Broadway to Oak 5 Street. 6 Q. And where was Fawcett-Dearing at that time? 7 A. It was at 11th and Broadway. 8 Q. And how did you happen to notice Joey then? 9 A. It wasn't hard to spot, I'd just ride by and 10 looked and saw him. 11 Q. And did you stop? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Why did you stop? 14 A. Because I wanted to say something to him. I 15 hadn't seen him in so long. 16 Q. And tell the jury about that conversation that 17 you had with him. 18 A. Well, I don't know what the first conversation 19 was. You know, we just talked and I asked him, you know, how 20 things was going and how long he's been there, and we just 21 talked, you know, in between each other. 22 Q. Did he tell you at that time or did you know at 23 that time whether or not he had married or anything of that 24 nature? 25 A. I think that he told me later that he was 16 1 married, because I know I wasn't married and I just, you know, 2 I thought if I wasn't, nobody else was, either. 3 Q. What was your understanding of what Mr. 4 Wesbecker's job was? Was he a fly-boy or an apprentice or had 5 he gotten his pressman's card at that time? 6 A. I understand he was a pretty good pressman, from 7 what I understood. He was a hard worker. 8 Q. I'm talking about when you first saw him at 9 Fawcett-Dearing, what was your knowledge about what his status 10 was? 11 A. Oh, I had no idea. I had no idea. I don't 12 think I ever asked him. 13 Q. Do you know whether he liked that job? Did he 14 ever indicate whether he liked the job at Fawcett-Dearing? 15 A. I think he did. 16 Q. How often would you see him during that period 17 of time that you were an automobile patrol officer and he was 18 working at Fawcett-Dearing? 19 A. Well, it all depended on how often I would ride 20 up 11th Street. Maybe three or four times a week, sometimes. 21 Q. And would you stop and talk to him every time or 22 would you sometimes just wave? 23 A. Sometimes I would, or if I was on a run or 24 something I would just "Hey, Joey" and holler and wave and go 25 on. But most of the time I would stop for a little while and 17 1 just sit there. 2 Q. Did you ever visit with him socially in his home 3 or go out for a beer or dinner or anything like that with him 4 while he was at Fawcett-Dearing? 5 A. No, sir; I never did. 6 Q. What was the next you heard of him? How many 7 years -- well, let's back up. 8 How many years was it that you would see him 9 frequently at the Fawcett-Dearing plant? 10 A. I guess two or three years, and then they 11 closed. I think they went to Fawcett-Haynes and then they 12 laid everybody off, and I believe that's when he left to go to 13 Standard Gravure. 14 Q. When is the next you heard of him? 15 A. My brother Charlie come home and told me a 16 friend of mine was working with him down at Standard Gravure, 17 and I asked him who it was and he said it was Joey Wesbecker. 18 He said, "He acts like a pretty nice guy." I said, "He is a 19 nice guy." 20 Q. Your brother's name is Charles Ball? 21 A. Uh-huh. 22 Q. And he was working at Standard Gravure? 23 A. Yes, sir. He worked there. 24 Q. Can you give us some idea when that would have 25 been that you were first made aware by your brother that Mr. 18 1 Wesbecker was now employed at Standard Gravure? 2 A. Maybe 10, 12 years ago. 3 Q. So we're talking about mid '80s, '84, '83? 4 A. Something like that. 5 Q. When did you next see him? 6 A. He started -- I was off sick for about nine 7 months and when I come back, I asked for an assignment on 8 Fourth Street and they put me on Fourth Street down by Theater 9 Square. 10 Q. Were you still a patrol officer or were you on 11 foot? 12 A. I'm on foot patrol but still a patrol officer. 13 One day I looked up and there was Joey coming down the street. 14 And even though he had been working he was -- still tried his 15 best to, you know, be neat and have his hair combed. He 16 didn't like his wiry hair, either, so he always had to press 17 it down or something. But I can remember him coming down the 18 street and he had one of those red work rags hanging out of 19 his pocket. He'd come down and we'd talk for a little while. 20 It was during his lunch hour. 21 Q. Was this the first time you had seen him in a 22 period of time? 23 A. In a period of time, yes. Uh-huh. 24 Q. Can you give the jury any idea how long it had 25 been? 19 1 A. Time is so hard. I guess five, six -- five, six 2 years. 3 Q. Okay. What did you-all do? 4 A. We stood around and talked, and he told me he 5 was married again. See, I never knew he was married the first 6 time. He told me he was married again and he talked about his 7 sons a little bit. 8 Q. What did he tell you about his sons? 9 A. He didn't -- gosh. I know he thought a lot of 10 them, but I just can't remember exactly what he said. But I 11 know he thought a lot of them and he said he was real happy 12 with his wife and all that. 13 Q. Was it your impression that this -- that he had 14 divorced and remarried and was happy with his second wife? 15 A. I didn't come to no conclusions like that. See, 16 I really didn't know he was married the first time. 17 Q. Had you gotten married by then? 18 A. Yeah. I did. I got -- I was married for four 19 years, yes. 20 Q. Did Mr. Wesbecker make any complaints about his 21 wife when you saw him? 22 A. No, sir; he didn't. 23 Q. Did he make any complaints about life in 24 general? 25 A. No, he didn't. He seemed at peace. He seemed 20 1 to like what he was doing and he said he was putting in a lot 2 of hours. 3 Q. Did he like that or was he complaining about 4 that? 5 A. Well, I think he liked it because of the money. 6 He was making more money than he ever made in his life and he 7 was working all the overtime he wanted. 8 Q. Was he bragging about the money he was making? 9 A. No, sir. He never -- no, he didn't. 10 Q. Was Joe Wesbecker the type of guy that bragged? 11 A. No, sir. Wait. He would -- how am I going to 12 say this. He was the type of guy that would maybe tell a 13 story, not a lie, but a story, you know, like, "I did this" 14 and you know he really didn't do it but you go along with him. 15 And I don't think he ever meant any harm by doing this and it 16 never did do any harm, just -- and you'd say oh, okay and that 17 would be the drop of that subject. 18 Q. But as far as bragging about money -- 19 A. No, sir; I never heard that. 20 Q. -- did you ever hear any talk about any success 21 he had in the stock market or anything of that nature? 22 A. No, sir; I didn't. 23 Q. When you first talked to him when you first 24 learned he was at Standard Gravure, did he make any complaints 25 at all about his job at Standard Gravure? 21 1 A. No, not for the longest -- not for a couple 2 years. 3 Q. All right. Any changes in him from the last 4 time you had seen him and from the Joey that had taken up for 5 you in the sixth grade? 6 A. He got smaller and I got bigger. No. It was 7 still -- I guess Joey would have always been a kid at heart 8 because I don't think he was ever going to grow up. He was 9 just a big bear -- big, old honey bear. He just -- I mean, I 10 thought he was very soft and... 11 Q. Did you ever hear him called the Pillsbury 12 Doughboy? 13 A. No. But at the end he began to look like it, he 14 was -- started gaining some weight in his stomach. 15 Q. Would that be a good description of him? 16 A. Yes, sir; it would have been. 17 Q. After you got as big as Joe Wesbecker got and 18 probably bigger, did you ever have any fear of Joe Wesbecker? 19 A. I never had any fear of him. 20 Q. Did you even have any fear of Joe Wesbecker when 21 he had the big arms and he was bigger than anybody in the 22 sixth grade? 23 A. No, I don't think I -- no, because he never, 24 never showed me no animosity or anything that would make me 25 scared of him. 22 1 Q. Did he ever show any animosity toward anybody? 2 A. Mike Richards when he punched him in the jaw 3 that night, the one that was picking on me, but then after 4 that was over they were friends. They both got kicked out of 5 the club that night and the next day -- they both went to 6 Flaget, so, they were friends afterwards. 7 Q. All right. Tell the jury about how often after 8 you re-met with Joe Wesbecker was it that you would meet him 9 again while he was working at Standard Gravure. 10 A. Well, about two or three times a week he would 11 walk down during his lunch period. 12 Q. Were you in an area where you had to remain 13 within, say, a block or a two-block radius? 14 A. I would always stay in the Theater Square area 15 during lunchtime so that the people would feel like there was 16 a little protection there in case something happened. 17 Q. And would he seek you out on those two or three 18 times a week? 19 A. Yes. Sometimes he would. He would come up and 20 we'd just talk about anything or, you know, everything in 21 general. 22 Q. Can you recall any things in specifically that 23 you-all talked about: taxes, complaints, wives, children, 24 girlfriends? 25 A. Well, about six months before he was laid off or 23 1 put off on sick he come up to me, he was kind of depressed 2 then. He was -- he was worried about being laid off. 3 Q. All right. So at that time are we in '88, '87? 4 A. Time is really bad on this. 5 Q. Can you relate it to September 14th, 1989, 6 Officer Ball? 7 A. This was probably maybe a year and a half or two 8 years before. And he was depressed. He wasn't mad. He was 9 just a little depressed about losing his job again, you know, 10 since he had already lost one job he was going to lose this 11 one here. 12 Q. Did he tell you what the problem was about 13 losing his job? 14 A. No, sir; he didn't. 15 Q. Did he give you any reasons as to why he thought 16 he would lose his job? 17 A. No, he didn't. I understood -- wait. Let me -- 18 what I'm thinking is that he had heard it was going to be a 19 mass layoff or they were going to close the plant or something 20 like that when the rumor was started and that's what he 21 thought he was going out as, and I didn't know that he went 22 out sick, but I thought he was laid off. 23 Q. Up until that time, approximately a year or a 24 year and a half before September 14th, 1989, had you ever seen 25 Joseph Wesbecker depressed? 24 1 A. No, sir. 2 Q. Had you ever seen him agitated or aggravated or 3 upset about anything? 4 A. I can't say that I did. 5 Q. And you were seeing him two or three times a 6 week? 7 A. Yes, sir. 8 Q. How long would the conversations last on 9 those -- during those periods I guess from the early '80s up 10 until '87 or '88? 11 A. They would probably last maybe 15 minutes 12 because I believe he was probably doing his exercise, walking 13 all the way around. 14 Q. Was as he walking at a brisk pace or did he have 15 on jogging shorts? 16 A. Well, he would come around Broadway and when he 17 would leave he'd go down Fourth Street and turn on Chestnut, 18 so I was just thinking maybe he was getting a little exercise. 19 Q. But he would stop and talk to you? 20 A. Yes. Always. No matter, always he would holler 21 at me or something like that or if I was busy, you know, I'd 22 wave to him. 23 Q. Would this go on during all times of the year? 24 I mean, what if it was real cold? 25 A. In the wintertime I kind of stayed low, but in 25 1 the summertime when I'm out all the time I saw him all the 2 time. 3 Q. Do you remember anything else a year to a year 4 and a half before this incident that Mr. Wesbecker told you 5 about any problems at the job or did he explain his depression 6 in any other fashion to you? 7 A. No. He never explained nothing to me. But the 8 only thing that I can tell you that I really observed that I 9 really didn't understand was he came down on Fourth Street 10 that one day and he showed me a clip. It was a clip from an 11 M1 rifle. It was a banana clip, banana clip, I mean, it was 12 like this and it would hold more shells than a regular clip. 13 Q. Was it illegal to possess an item such as this, 14 Officer Ball? 15 A. No, sir; it isn't. No, sir. 16 Q. Was it illegal to possess the weapon that that 17 clip would have fit? 18 A. No, sir. 19 Q. Give us some details of what was said or what 20 you recall about that incident where he -- where was the clip? 21 Was he holding it in his hand? 22 A. Well, the clip was in his back pocket. I said, 23 "What is that." He said, "It's a clip." And I said, "What 24 caliber is it," and he showed me and it was the M1, the small 25 carbine. And I thought nothing of it; being it was an empty 26 1 clip I thought maybe he was cleaning it or something. So, I 2 mean, he put it back in his pocket and we went on talking a 3 little bit and nothing was ever said about it again. 4 Q. Did you think that this was -- that he had been 5 out -- did you ask him about shooting the gun or whether he 6 was collecting guns or anything of that nature? 7 A. No, sir; I didn't. 8 Q. Were you alarmed when you saw Joseph Wesbecker 9 with that clip? 10 A. No, not -- no, not really. It's odd that people 11 would carry a clip around but it wasn't -- didn't alarm me. 12 Q. Let me ask you this, Officer Ball: Has your 13 profession required you to come in contact with people who are 14 threats to the public safety? 15 A. Very much. 16 Q. How many arrests would you say you've made in 17 the Louisville Police Department involving individuals who 18 were a threat to either you as a police officer or members of 19 the City of Louisville? 20 A. Thousands. 21 Q. And have you been able to observe the behavior 22 of those thousands of people as a police officer? 23 A. Yes, sir. 24 Q. And handle those thousands of people, I guess? 25 A. Pretty good; yes, sir. 27 1 Q. Up to September 14th, Officer Ball, did Joseph 2 Wesbecker ever display any of those qualities or traits or 3 signs that you saw in those thousands of people that you came 4 into contact with who were violent? 5 A. None that I ever -- none that I know of myself. 6 Q. Did you ever observe anything about Joseph 7 Wesbecker up to September 14th, 1989, that would make you 8 think he was a threat to the people of this city? 9 A. No, sir; I didn't. 10 Q. When did you next see Joseph Wesbecker after 11 this clip incident? 12 A. On the basement of the floor of Standard 13 Gravure. 14 Q. Were you on duty on September 14th, 1989, 15 Officer Ball? 16 A. Yes, sir. Yes, sir; I was. 17 Q. Where were you stationed at that time? 18 A. I was over on Fourth Street. 19 Q. And Fourth Street and what? 20 A. I was at the -- in front of Theater -- at 21 Theater Square in front of the Kentucky Theater. 22 Q. Did you get a call on this shooting? 23 A. A call came out that there was a man with a gun. 24 Q. I was going to say what was the call. 25 A. A man with a gun. 28 1 Q. Did it give the location of the man with a gun? 2 A. At The Courier-Journal. 3 Q. At The Courier-Journal? 4 A. Uh-huh. 5 Q. What did you do, sir? 6 A. I didn't do nothing at the time but when they 7 said -- they come back on and said the man -- or there was two 8 men and they were firing weapons, I decided I better get on 9 over there. 10 Q. How did you get there? 11 A. I run. 12 Q. Did you trot or did you run at a dead run? 13 A. I ran at a dead run. 14 Q. Why, sir? 15 A. Well, I knew there was a lot of people there. 16 Q. Where did you run to? 17 A. I run to the back of Standard Gravure. 18 Q. How long did it take you to run from where you 19 were located to the back of Standard Gravure? 20 A. Fifteen, twenty seconds. 21 Q. Did you have anybody with you when you got the 22 call? 23 A. No, sir. I was by myself. 24 Q. By the time -- I believe you said the call was 25 that there was a man with a gun at The Courier-Journal? 29 1 A. Right. 2 Q. By the time you got to Standard Gravure, had you 3 gotten any more details over the radio? 4 A. I was trying to listen and run at the same time, 5 and it came out that there was some casualties of people, that 6 people had been shot, some people had been shot. 7 Q. And did they identify not at The Courier-Journal 8 but at Standard Gravure? 9 A. I'm not sure. I can't say. I don't remember. 10 Q. But by the time you got there was it apparent to 11 you that the problem was at Standard Gravure as opposed to The 12 Courier-Journal? 13 A. Well, by the time we got there we did -- I mean, 14 by the time I got there we knew that it was at Standard 15 Gravure. 16 Q. Officer Ball, what I'd like to do is talk with 17 you about what you did there, sir. And I'd like to take it in 18 chronological order for you. I know it's going to be tough. 19 If you need a break or anything of that nature, we'll be glad 20 to stop for you. All right? 21 When you got to the Standard Gravure facility, 22 were there any other police elements or officers on the scene? 23 A. Yes, sir. I don't know how many there was. I 24 think I was either the fourth or fifth, maybe the sixth. 25 Q. And what location did you arrive at, sir? 30 1 A. I went to the back of Standard Gravure by the 2 docks. 3 Q. In a situation like that, what was, from a 4 police standpoint, the problem that you were presented with? 5 A. We had no idea where he was. Also, it came out 6 that there was two people firing, and we had just -- just 7 knowing that you didn't know what was going to happen, you had 8 no idea what, you know, what was actually going on. 9 Q. All right. Did you have to get permission from 10 a supervisor or from a sergeant or something to enter the 11 premises or was there any game plan at that time set out as to 12 what the conduct of yourself and the other officers on the 13 scene was to be? 14 A. No. There was no -- no. There was no plan at 15 the time. We didn't have time to plan. You just had to do 16 what you do. 17 Q. All right, sir. What did you do? 18 A. Well, I got -- when I got there, I took up a 19 position outside, and I heard Officer Tom Strong, who had 20 somehow got up on the third floor, and said, "We've got to get 21 some of these people out of here because they're going to die. 22 I think we've got to get them out of here." 23 Q. Who said that, sir? 24 A. Officer Tom Strong. 25 Q. Did he identify himself as to where he was? 31 1 A. He said he was on the third floor. 2 Q. Did he identify himself as to whether or not he 3 was in the office part of the third floor or in the bindery -- 4 middle bindery area of the third floor? 5 A. He just said the third floor. 6 Q. Okay. And what was it he said? 7 A. He said, "We've got to get these people out of 8 here, some of them are shot pretty bad." And the EMS people 9 couldn't get to them because they had no protection or 10 nothing. And I understand why they couldn't go. 11 Q. What did you do, sir? 12 A. I asked Officer Mauch, I said, "Come on and go 13 with me, let's go in." 14 Q. Who is Officer Mauch? 15 A. David Mauch. He's now retired. 16 Q. Had he run over there with you or did you just 17 meet up with him? 18 A. I met up with him. 19 Q. Was he an automobile patrol officer or was he 20 another foot patrol officer? 21 A. No, sir. He was from another district. And I 22 said, "Dave, we've got to do something." So there was an 23 ambulance sitting there running and nothing was -- nobody was 24 around it, so I said, "Let's take an ambulance and go up and 25 get this person." And we got the ambulance -- I mean, we got 32 1 the stretcher out of the ambulance, and as we were -- oh, I'm 2 sorry. As we were taking it up, I thought to myself, "This is 3 not a good day to die," but I knew I was going to die that 4 day. I said an Act of Contrition and a Hail Mary, and we went 5 and we took the stretcher on up the elevator to the third 6 floor. 7 Q. Did you hear gunshots? 8 A. Yes, sir; there were still gunshots going off. 9 Q. Where did you enter the building? 10 A. We entered from the elevator at the back of the 11 third floor. It seemed like it was as long as a football 12 field or three times as long as a football field. We had to 13 almost belly crawl because we couldn't get the stretcher up. 14 We didn't know how to break the stretcher up. 15 Q. How did you get up the elevator and how did you 16 get directions to get to where -- 17 A. Someone from the factory, one of them that I 18 think Joey was supposed to get, I don't know what -- I can't 19 remember what his name is, took us up. And we told him to 20 hold the elevator, we're going to hope to come right back. So 21 we -- like I said, we went up there and tried to find the 22 first one who was hurt the worst. 23 Q. Did you have your gun drawn as you went up that 24 elevator? 25 A. No, sir. I don't -- it wouldn't have did no 33 1 good if we would have had our guns drawn. 2 Q. Why? 3 A. He had so much fire power that it wouldn't have 4 did -- with the little six-shooters we had, couldn't have did 5 nothing, and besides that, I wasn't worried about shooting 6 anybody, I just wanted to get somebody out. 7 Q. Did you take the elevator up to the third floor? 8 A. Yes, sir; I did. 9 Q. What did you see when you got off the elevator, 10 sir? 11 A. Like I said, it looked like about a hundred 12 yards. Way down at the end down there we were like belly 13 crawling carrying the stretcher. I hollered at Tom, I said, 14 "Tom, which is the worst one," and he pointed over to one over 15 on this side. We had one dead here and one shot over here and 16 another one that was shot over here, shot in the head. 17 Q. Was the man that was shot in the head near the 18 elevator where it opened? 19 A. No, sir. He was towards the metal doors at the 20 end where the -- the elevator was way back here. The metal 21 doors were way up front and that's where he -- Joey had come 22 through one time and shot those three people. I can't... 23 Q. As you opened the elevator doors there on the 24 third floor, could you still hear gunshots? 25 A. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. We knew -- we just knew at 34 1 any time that door was going to open up and just blow us away, 2 but it didn't. 3 Q. What did you do for the man with the head 4 injury? 5 A. Well, we took Tom Strong's shirt off of him and 6 kind of wrapped his head and tried to stop the bleeding but, 7 you know, on head wounds you just can't stop the bleeding. 8 It's so terrible. I can remember looking down at my hands and 9 seeing stuff I didn't want to see. 10 Q. What? 11 A. I saw part of some brains. And -- but he was 12 still alive and I said, "Well, let's get him out of here." So 13 we kind of belly crawled out and pushed and pulled the 14 stretcher. We got him down on the elevator, then we didn't 15 find nobody that could drive the ambulance. So I said, 16 "Officer Mauch," I said -- I'm sorry, I have forgot Mauch's 17 first name -- I said, "Would you hold his head back here and 18 I'll attempt to drive." And so I got in -- I got in the front 19 of it and I didn't know how to turn the lights on. So we just 20 turned everything on, and they had Broadway blocked but nobody 21 had told us, and we bucked traffic. We were going up Chestnut 22 Street and we rode on sidewalks and everything. We knew this 23 was -- I mean, this was very seriously hurt. And we got him 24 there and took him -- the doctors were waiting for us, and we 25 took him in and took him off our stretcher and... 35 1 Q. Did you learn who that individual was, Officer 2 Ball? 3 A. I'm sorry, sir? 4 Q. Did you learn who that individual was? 5 A. Yes, sir; I did. 6 Q. Who was it? 7 A. John Stein. John Stein. 8 Q. Okay. What happened at the hospital? 9 A. Well, the first thing, we pulled in, some 10 Rent-a-Policeman, I believe you call them, come up and told me 11 I pulled in the wrong way. I said, "Yeah, you better get me 12 some doctors," and the doctors came out and we got John inside 13 and they went to work on him immediately. John was also shot 14 in the stomach, but we didn't know he was shot in the stomach. 15 That was very trying. We cleaned the stretcher off. 16 Q. Do you need to take a break -- are you able to 17 go ahead, Officer Ball, or do you need to take a break? 18 A. I'm okay. We cleaned the -- kind of cleaned the 19 stretcher off. And it was -- it had -- it was really messed 20 up, and cleaned it the best we could and grabbed a couple more 21 sheets and got back in the ambulance and took it back down to 22 Standard Gravure to make sure, you know, if we had to bring 23 somebody else back. 24 Q. So what did you -- what did you do when you got 25 back? 36 1 A. When we got back, they put us on a search -- 2 search of the building, looking for either more victims or 3 people that were, you know, hiding or something in that place. 4 Q. By the time you got back, did you have any word 5 concerning whether or not Joseph Wesbecker had been caught and 6 whether or not there had been a conclusion to the -- 7 A. Okay. This is something I omitted. I'm sorry. 8 When we got on -- after we got up on the -- on the elevator, 9 word came that they had found the man who was doing the 10 shooting dead in the basement. And at that time it felt like 11 someone had taken three or four hundred pounds off your back, 12 just, you knew then that you were going to be safe. But, I 13 don't know, we got so much -- so worried about John's 14 condition there, it just, you know, it just didn't ring -- we 15 just knew that we had to get him out of there and get him some 16 help somehow. And we did. We got him down there and the 17 doctors did a wonderful thing. And, like I said, we went back 18 down and we were searching. 19 Q. Where did you search? 20 A. Well, they sent me down -- I don't know if it 21 was the printing room or the paint room -- there was a lot of 22 paint in the place, so I guess it might have been the paint 23 room or something. We found three bodies down there. One of 24 them was still holding onto the lever of one of the presses, 25 and they found another one and he was still alive, and EMS 37 1 worked on him. And I don't know if he was -- if he lived or 2 not. And the last one was -- the last one I found was the 3 gentleman that was in the paper laying on the -- laying on the 4 steps. I could see that he had no idea what happened to him. 5 I can see just plain as day his little -- he had a little red 6 and white Tupperware meal box, where he would carry his 7 sandwiches and stuff like that. It was such a -- I don't 8 know -- such a waste. 9 Q. Did you go on up the stairs into the press area 10 where the break room was, Officer Ball? 11 A. Sir, I guess I did. I don't know exactly where 12 the break room was. 13 Q. Well, did you go to a room where there were a 14 number of fatalities and injuries and where there was water? 15 A. Everywhere I went -- oh, going from the break 16 room like to the other room -- dressing room, he had shot all 17 the fire things, fire sprinklers and there was so much blood 18 that it looked like a river. It looked like a river of blood. 19 It was not a very pleasant sight. And here you're walking 20 through it and, you know, but something that you had to do. 21 I remember, you know, after everything died 22 down, I had on a pair of shoes -- chuckle boots they call 23 them, they come up to your ankle -- I took them off and they 24 were -- I refused to put them back on. I took my socks off 25 and my feet were completely blood soaked. So I remember going 38 1 back to headquarters later on that evening barefooted, I would 2 never put the stuff back on. But... It was just -- it was 3 unbelievable. 4 Q. Did you see your friend Joseph Wesbecker there, 5 Officer Ball? 6 A. Yes, sir; I did. 7 Q. Where did you see him? 8 A. Lying facedown in a pool of blood. 9 Q. Did you recognize him? 10 A. Yes, sir. 11 Q. What was your thoughts as you saw Joseph 12 Wesbecker lying there? 13 A. I was so mad that he wasn't man enough to face 14 up to what he had done or get help. I wanted -- I wanted to 15 kick him and stomp him, I wanted to just do anything I could. 16 But, you know, you just -- you just don't -- just everything 17 went through your head. I just figured I probably could have 18 helped him if he would have talked to me or something like 19 that. You know, I thought maybe I failed or something to that 20 effect. But, God, it made me so mad that he did what he did, 21 you know, with all this -- all these people and all these 22 families that he tore up, and not only the people in the 23 Standard Gravure, but the people that are involved in the 24 police department. Some of them will never be the same again. 25 Q. Will you ever be the same again, sir? 39 1 A. No, sir; I won't. 2 Q. Did you take any more injured people or remove 3 any more bodies? 4 A. I helped carry some of the -- after the -- they 5 got on with the investigation, I helped carry a lot of them 6 out to the hearse. 7 Q. Did -- how long did you remain there at the 8 scene? 9 A. I don't know what time I got there. I can't 10 remember the time, but I guess I left about 4:30. 11 Q. So you were there from 9:30 to 4:30 -- or 8:30 12 to 4:30? 13 A. Whatever time we got over there. I don't know 14 what time. 15 Q. Have you ever heard of fluoxetine hydrochloride, 16 Officer Ball? 17 A. Sir? 18 Q. Have you ever heard of fluoxetine hydrochloride? 19 A. No, sir. 20 Q. Have you ever heard of Prozac? 21 MR. STOPHER: Your Honor, may we approach the 22 bench? 23 JUDGE POTTER: Let me just ask, Mr. Smith, what 24 possible relevance could it have whether he's ever heard of it 25 or not? 40 1 MR. SMITH: I want to know if he's had any 2 experience with this. 3 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. I'm going to sustain the 4 objection. 5 Q. Did you learn the names of any other of the 6 people that you took out of the premises there, Officer Ball? 7 A. People that were dead? 8 Q. Or alive and injured, that you actually 9 physically helped? 10 A. At the time, I didn't know anybody's name. 11 There was no -- you know, there was no names. We didn't know 12 anybody's names. 13 Q. Thank you, Officer Ball. 14 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Stopher? 15 16 EXAMINATION ___________ 17 18 BY_MR._STOPHER: __ ___ ________ 19 Q. Officer Ball, I won't be very long, sir, but in 20 the meantime would you like a drink of water? 21 A. No, sir; I'm fine. 22 Q. Are you all right, sir? 23 A. Thank you. 24 Q. Officer, let me go back for just a moment, if I 25 might. If I understand correctly, you have -- or I think I 41 1 understood you to say you have a brother named Charles or 2 Charlie Ball? 3 A. Yes, sir. 4 Q. Am I right about that? 5 A. Yes, sir. 6 Q. And I thought I understood you to say that it 7 was your brother Charles or Charlie Ball that worked at 8 Standard Gravure? 9 A. Yes, sir. 10 Q. Was he a pressman? 11 A. Charlie was a -- when he was there he was a 12 paper handler, I think. 13 Q. Do you have any recollection, sir, about how 14 long he worked at Standard Gravure? 15 A. Ten years. 16 Q. And do you recall approximately when that 17 ten-year period was? 18 A. No, sir. 19 Q. All right. You don't know if it was in the '70s 20 or the '80s? 21 A. Oh, it had -- '70s or -- probably '80s. 22 Q. Okay. And if I understand correctly, sir, at 23 sometime in the '80s, I think you said, you came back from six 24 months of leave to go back on duty; am I right? 25 A. Nine months, sir. 42 1 Q. Nine months. About when was that, sir? 2 A. That was from -- it was '86, I believe it was 3 '86. 4 Q. So that I am clear in my timing on this, sir, 5 you were off leave -- off on disability or medical leave? 6 A. Medical leave; yes, sir. 7 Q. For about nine months? 8 A. Yes, sir. 9 Q. And you came back on the force on active duty in 10 about 1986? 11 A. Yes, sir. 12 Q. All right. And then if I understand correctly, 13 sir, from 1986 until at least the day of these shootings at 14 Standard Gravure, you were on the beat at Fourth Street; am I 15 correct? 16 A. Yes, sir; I was. 17 Q. And I assume, sir, that you were on foot most of 18 the time; am I right about that? 19 A. Most of the time; yes, sir. 20 Q. And you would walk a beat in that general Fourth 21 Street area? 22 A. Yes, sir. 23 Q. Officer, what time of the day would you do that 24 work, sir? 25 A. My hours are 7:30 to 3:30. 43 1 Q. 7:30 A.M. to 3:30 P.M.? 2 A. Yes, sir. 3 Q. All right. Now, if I understand correctly, when 4 Joseph Wesbecker was working at Standard Gravure and you were 5 walking that beat on Fourth Street after 1986, from time to 6 time he would be on his lunch hour and he would run into you 7 on Fourth Street; am I right? 8 A. Yes, sir, he would. Yes, sir. 9 Q. Now, sir, that might occur I think you said as 10 often as two or three times a week? 11 A. Yes, sir. 12 Q. And those conversations might last 5 to perhaps 13 15 minutes? 14 A. Yes, sir. 15 Q. And it would just be the two of you? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. In those conversations, sir, did he confide in 18 you about problems that he was having? 19 A. No, sir. He never did. The only time I ever 20 saw Joey with a changed disposition was, like I said, was 21 about six months before I guess he thought he was going to be 22 laid off. 23 Q. All right, sir. Let me put that one aside for 24 just a moment, and I'm going to come back to it in a minute 25 and get you to explain what you recall about that, but before 44 1 that time, sir, did he ever tell you what was on his mind and 2 what was going on in his life in any detail? 3 A. No, sir. I believe Joey was the type person 4 that had the macho image that, you know, he wouldn't confide 5 in nobody and he would try to work it out hisself. 6 Q. Now, sir, if I recall correctly, on one of those 7 occasions you saw a banana clip in his possession; am I 8 correct about that? 9 A. That's correct, sir. 10 Q. He had been working at Standard Gravure? 11 A. Yes, sir. 12 Q. And he was out walking during a lunch break or 13 perhaps after a shift? 14 A. It was -- well, I'm not saying he's having 15 lunch, but he was walking during a lunch-period time. 16 Q. Was he wearing a uniform, sir? 17 A. Yes, sir. 18 Q. And was that a coverall-type uniform? 19 A. Yes. It was -- I mean, it was a regular uniform 20 that he would wear all the time. Now, I can't remember if it 21 was a coverall, blue jeans or what it was. 22 Q. All right, sir. In other words, it was his 23 regular work clothes? 24 A. Yes, sir. 25 Q. And when you first saw the clip or noticed the 45 1 clip, was it in his hands? 2 A. No. It was in his pocket. 3 Q. Was it in a front pocket or in a back pocket? 4 A. Back pocket. 5 Q. And about how long is a banana clip, sir? 6 A. About that long, I would say. 7 Q. And you're indicating, what, eight, nine inches? 8 A. About nine inches. 9 Q. And was it actually sticking out of his back 10 pocket? 11 A. Yes. Yes, sir. 12 Q. You could see part of the banana clip coming out 13 of the top of the back pocket? 14 A. Uh-huh. Yes, sir. 15 Q. When you say banana clip, sir, are we talking 16 about a clip that is straight or a clip that is curved like a 17 banana? 18 A. It's curved like a banana. 19 Q. Did you ask him what it was, sir? 20 A. I guess -- I guess I probably -- probably I did. 21 I probably asked him what it was. 22 Q. And what did he say? 23 A. He says it's just -- "It's a gun clip." I 24 said -- you know, I thought he was just bringing it out to 25 clean it or something because it had no bullets in it. 46 1 Q. Did he pull it out of his back pocket? 2 A. Yeah. He just brought it out. 3 Q. Did he show it to you? 4 A. Uh-huh. 5 Q. Did you actually hold it? 6 A. No, sir. 7 Q. Did you notice that it was empty or did you 8 just -- 9 A. It was empty; yes, sir. 10 Q. You saw that it was empty? 11 A. Yes, sir. 12 Q. Now, I thought I understood you to say that it 13 was a banana clip for an M1 carbine? 14 A. Yes, sir. 15 Q. How did you determine that, sir? 16 A. Well, that's what he told me it was, and I have 17 an M1 carbine and I know what the banana clip... 18 Q. And Mr. Wesbecker told you that it was a banana 19 clip for an M1 carbine and it looked like that to you; am I 20 right about that? 21 A. Yes, sir. 22 Q. Did you ask him what he was doing with the clip 23 at work? 24 A. No, sir. 25 Q. Did he say? 47 1 A. No, sir. 2 Q. Did you ask him where the weapon was? 3 A. No, sir. 4 Q. Had you known him as a young man to be 5 interested in guns or hunting? 6 A. No, sir. 7 Q. Did you tell him that he should put the clip 8 away or do something with it? 9 A. No. After he showed it to me, he went ahead and 10 put it back in his pocket. 11 Q. Put it back in his pocket and went back to work? 12 A. Yeah. We talked a little bit and he went on 13 back to work. 14 Q. Okay. Now, sir, if I understand correctly, the 15 last time you saw him before his death you saw him on Fourth 16 Street; am I correct about that? 17 A. Yes, sir. 18 Q. And if I understand correctly, he was still 19 working at Standard Gravure; correct? 20 A. These times are getting me mixed up. I believe 21 he -- yeah, I guess he was. Yes, sir. 22 Q. All right. You saw him again with his work 23 clothes on and you were walking the beat? 24 A. Yes, sir. 25 Q. On that last occasion that you saw him, sir, did 48 1 you notice anything different about him? 2 A. Well, he was very depressed. He was under the 3 impression that there was going to be a big layoff at Standard 4 Gravure and he thought he was going to be one of them. 5 Q. Did he tell you any problems that he had with 6 depression or manic depression or mental illness at that time? 7 A. No, sir. I took it on my own to say that he was 8 depressed because, you know, he wasn't hisself. He was kind 9 of moping and he might -- you know, if that's depression 10 that's how I, you know... 11 Q. He looked different? 12 A. Yes, sir. 13 Q. He mentioned to you that he was concerned about 14 a mass layoff and, I guess from what you're saying, that he 15 was concerned that it might include him? 16 A. Uh-huh. 17 Q. Is that yes? 18 A. Yes, sir. 19 Q. Did he mention anything about whether he thought 20 that was fair or unfair? 21 A. He didn't say, sir. 22 Q. Did he mention Mike Shea? 23 A. No, sir. 24 Q. Now, sir, if I understand correctly, on the day 25 of the shootings, you heard several radio communications 49 1 either on your way or in responding to the first call; am I 2 correct about that? 3 A. Yes, sir. 4 Q. And on the third or fourth call, sir, did you 5 hear a call describing the gunman or one of the gunmen? 6 A. Yes, sir; I did. 7 Q. And what did you hear? 8 A. There was a redheaded man, thick glasses, and he 9 had on a brown coat and I think it was a green or brown pants 10 on. 11 Q. Did you reach any conclusion at that time, sir? 12 A. Yes, I did. 13 Q. And what was that? 14 A. The first thing that come to my mind, I said, 15 "It's Joey." I don't know what made me think that or for what 16 reason, it just hit me as him. 17 Q. Thank you, sir. 18 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Smith? 19 20 FURTHER_EXAMINATION _______ ___________ 21 22 BY_MR._SMITH: __ ___ ______ 23 Q. Did you know anybody at Standard Gravure that 24 fit the description of thick glasses and red hair other than 25 Joe Wesbecker? 50 1 A. No, sir. That was the only one. 2 Q. Did Joe Wesbecker ever do or say anything in 3 the -- I guess it was 43 years that you knew him that would 4 have indicated based on that description or based on his 5 personality or based on his demeanor or based on anything that 6 he had done, that that man inside those premises committing 7 this slaughter was Joseph T. Wesbecker? 8 A. No, sir. I wouldn't have thought it in a 9 million years. 10 Q. That's all I have. 11 JUDGE POTTER: Thank you very much, Officer. 12 You may step down. You're excused, sir. 13 Mr. Smith, you want to call your next witness. 14 MR. SMITH: I'm sorry, Your Honor. We call Mike 15 Campbell. 16 MR. STOPHER: May we approach the bench, Your 17 Honor? 18 19 MICHAEL CAMPBELL, after first being duly sworn, 20 was examined and testified as follows: 21 22 JUDGE POTTER: Would you have a seat, sir, and 23 just wait a minute. 24 (BENCH DISCUSSION) 25 MR. STOPHER: Your Honor, we move to exclude Mr. 51 1 Campbell and any other of the plaintiffs from testifying on 2 the ground that it violates the statute regarding the order of 3 proof. 4 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Stopher, read your rules of 5 evidence; they did away with that one. 6 MR. STOPHER: Well, sir, I think the statute is 7 still in effect. 8 JUDGE POTTER: Well, I'm under the impression 9 that -- you're winning one, Mr. Smith, without even knowing 10 what it is. Okay. I'm under the impression that when they 11 passed the Kentucky Rules of Evidence they did away with 12 making you put your plaintiffs on first. 13 MR. STOPHER: Well, I disagree. The statute is 14 still on the books and as far as I know, it's -- 15 JUDGE POTTER: But I am right. Didn't they pass 16 the Kentucky Rules of Evidence that says you don't have to do 17 that anymore? 18 MR. STOPHER: Judge, the Kentucky rules of 19 evidence say, if I recall correctly, that it's a matter of 20 discretion, but we take the position that the statute applies 21 over the rules of evidence. 22 JUDGE POTTER: Let's see. Well, it's one I've 23 had come up before, and I don't know whether I've actually 24 been to seminars and heard that was changed or if it was 25 changed, but I'm under the impression that it was changed, so 52 1 I'm going to overrule the objection. 2 (BENCH DISCUSSION CONCLUDED) 3 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Mr. Campbell, I'll remind 4 you you're under oath and if you would keep your voice up and 5 state your name loud and clear for the members of the jury. 6 MR. CAMPBELL: My name is Michael P. Campbell. 7 8 EXAMINATION ___________ 9 10 BY_MR._SMITH: __ ___ _____ 11 Q. How old of a man are you, Mr. Campbell? 12 A. I am 56. 13 Q. And where do you live? 14 A. 2909 South Third Street in Louisville, Kentucky. 15 Q. How long have you lived in Louisville? 16 A. All my life. 17 Q. Do you have a family, sir? 18 A. Yes, I do. 19 Q. Are members of your family here today? 20 A. Yes. My wife and two daughters. 21 Q. And what are their names and ages? 22 A. My wife is Elizabeth and she's 54; my daughter 23 Georgia is 32; my daughter Gina is 23. 24 Q. Are you currently employed, sir? 25 A. No, sir. 53 1 Q. Why not? 2 A. I'm on temporary total disability. 3 Q. Why? 4 A. Because of the injuries I sustained during the 5 shooting. 6 Q. Where were you when the shooting occurred? 7 A. I was in the break area in Area One. 8 Q. When did you start working at Standard Gravure? 9 A. In 1969, I believe it was. 10 Q. And did you work there continuously? 11 A. Yes, I did. 12 Q. For the 20 years until 1989? 13 A. Yes, I did. 14 Q. It seems to me, in mentioning pressmen and 15 employees from Standard Gravure, that they all go back into 16 the '60s, some, Mr. Gorman even into the '50s. Was there a 17 lot of long-term employees at that plant? 18 A. Yes, sir. I think at the time of the shooting 19 most everyone there had at least 25 years' service. I started 20 myself in 1959 in The Courier-Journal and it was a company 21 that had a lot of nepotism, family company. There were 22 several people from the same family working in different 23 departments, sometime in the same department. 24 Q. How many Ganotes was there? 25 A. I think there was, like they say, seven and a 54 1 half. There were seven Ganotes and one cousin at one time in 2 the pressroom. 3 Q. All of those would have been relatives of Bill 4 Ganote, who was killed on September 14th? 5 A. Yes. At one time Al Ganote, his father, and Red 6 Ganote were there, and I think each had two sons and one 7 cousin, one nephew. 8 Q. When you went from The Courier-Journal after ten 9 years' service to Standard Gravure, was this just sort of a 10 lateral change? 11 A. They were -- you know, all these were part of 12 the Bingham companies and you had to quit one company and go 13 to work for the next company, but it was an equal pay and 14 equal status. 15 Q. Why did you change? 16 A. Mostly because of the hours. Working conditions 17 were a little better. You had a choice of three shifts as 18 opposed to two shifts on The Courier side that one shift 19 started at eight o'clock in the evening and went till four in 20 the morning. And rotogravure I had a better chance of getting 21 a night shift that I could do something with my family. 22 Q. Did you get your seniority as far as retirement 23 benefits or anything of that nature that ten years that you 24 built up at Standard -- at The Courier-Journal before you went 25 to Standard Gravure? 55 1 A. No. I think at the time you had to give up all 2 your benefits and start over again. 3 Q. Over that 20-year period of time, what different 4 jobs did you have at Standard Gravure, Mr. Campbell? 5 A. There really are three categories of jobs -- 6 actually there are two, man in charge, first man and second 7 man. I started out initially as an ink man. I would work on 8 the reel from time to time. While I had had experience on the 9 folder in the newspaper, there were different folders in 10 Standard Gravure and I was pretty far down the line in 11 seniority, so I didn't have a chance initially to work on the 12 folder. Primarily, I worked as an ink man and occasionally a 13 reel man. 14 A. And then did you move up after a period of time? 15 A. Yes. After I got some experience. I worked -- 16 after a year or so I got a chance to work as a third man on 17 the folder, a person who trains to work the folder. On 18 occasions when people on doubles went home, I would fill in 19 for them and that was sort of an apprenticeship on the folder. 20 Q. And did you become proficient in working on the 21 folder? 22 A. After a good deal of time, yes; I suppose after 23 a year or so. 24 Q. Okay. So would it be accurate to say that you 25 operated the folder on a somewhat regular basis from 19 -- say 56 1 '70 to 1989? 2 A. Probably a little later than '70, let's say '72 3 or so. 4 Q. Was operating the folder a position of any 5 prestige or dissension among you pressmen there? 6 A. I think most everybody thought it was the 7 ultimate position as a worker. It was something everybody 8 sought. It was the recognition that you were -- you needed to 9 be proficient in your trade. All the jobs were important. 10 All the jobs had a certain status to them, but that was the 11 most important job, I would say. 12 Q. Why was it the most important? 13 A. Because it showed that you had the most 14 proficiency. You had learned up to that point the ultimate. 15 You had learned finally the last thing that you needed to 16 know. It was the last position in your learning process. 17 Q. Can you kind of give us a paragraph course on 18 how these presses worked, what they were and what the 19 different functions were on the presses? Can that be done? 20 A. I'll try. The -- it was a continuous-fed web 21 press. It was a four-color process, yellow, red, blue and key 22 or black on one end, and the sheet turned over and was printed 23 on the other side the same way. It then went into a set of 24 angle bars which turned all the papers into the proper 25 positions to position them into the folder. The folder 57 1 grabbed the paper by means of rollers and pins and so forth, 2 turned it until it folded and cut into a single book coming 3 out. And it did this at a rate in the early days of thirty, 4 thirty-five thousand per hour, and in the later days sixty to 5 sixty-five, sixty-eight. This was a continuous four-color 6 process, rotogravure process. There were actually three jobs, 7 a reel man, who operated the reel, fed the paper into it, made 8 up -- 9 Q. What is the reel? 10 A. The reel is the holder for the newsprint or the 11 print that you use. 12 Q. Does it start off at one end and you come out 13 with the books at the other end? 14 A. It actually starts in the basement area because 15 the presses are so large, but it starts in the basement area 16 and is fed up through the floor. It goes into the unit and 17 through the folder. The actual spools that the rolls are fed 18 into will hold two in Area One and three rolls in Area Two, 19 and you make them up in a way that have little Vs cut out on 20 them and glue on them, and they call it continuous web fed 21 because this roll gets spinning and then it is pasted onto the 22 outgoing roll on speed, so it's a continuous operation. You 23 don't slow down or stop for spacers. 24 Q. So you don't have to actually stop and put on 25 another roll of paper? 58 1 A. No, sir. It's all done mechanically. 2 Q. Then what happens after the paper starts down as 3 it goes up and down the press? 4 A. Comes out of the floor and goes into each unit 5 and it is printed. Let's say we have a horse on the front 6 page. Each color has the image of the horse in the tone that 7 it needs to make the horse look like a horse in the end. So 8 as it goes through, it prints the yellow and then overlays 9 with a red and then a blue and then a black on one side. Then 10 it turns over on the top of the press, goes down and starts in 11 the other four units and prints on the other side. 12 Q. I thought a horse was generally brown; how do 13 you only have the four colors? Does this mix colors to get a 14 brown hue? 15 A. No, sir. The tones are etched into the 16 cylinder, the depth of the tone -- I mean, the depth of the 17 etch controls the color. In other words, a darker color would 18 have to have a lot more ink; a lighter color, somewhat less. 19 Q. So you could, with that four-color and etching 20 process, end up with a picture of a horse that would appear 21 like a brown horse? 22 A. Yes, sir. 23 Q. All right. Go ahead. 24 A. So this process, you know, requires a reel man, 25 requires a certain amount of expertise in taking care to load 59 1 the roll correctly and make it up correctly. The other job is 2 an ink man. His job is to make sure that the inks are the 3 correct viscosity. They have to be a certain viscosity or 4 thickness in order to maintain the colors. Sometimes the 5 colors will fade, sometimes they will get too bright and you 6 have to add naphtha or solvents to control the color of it. 7 Now, the ink man's job is to maintain those reservoirs with 8 ink and to maintain a correct viscosity. He also helps in 9 other aspects of the press in the make-readies and so forth. 10 The folder man's job is the first man in charge. 11 His job is to oversee the crew, to maintain the press, other 12 than breakdowns, and assign crews and to set up the job in the 13 first place, so that it is -- all the things come together in 14 the folder at the same time in the same place in the way it's 15 supposed to be. And then from that point on he has to get all 16 the colors and all of the register, in other words, the 17 overlays of print together to make sure that they form a book, 18 and then he has to get it up to speed for production and he 19 maintains production. He maintains the crew and he has 20 deadlines and he has responsibilities. 21 Q. Now, you mentioned a folder man, an ink man and 22 a reel man. Does that mean that one of these presses that's 23 150 yards long, three stories tall is just going to be 24 operated by three individuals? 25 A. There is another man, the second man in charge, 60 1 who assists the man in charge. 2 Q. Was there ever a time where the presses were 3 operated by more than four individuals? 4 A. Yes, sir. In the early '60s and '70s, the 5 complement of men was according to how many units you had. In 6 other words, if you had a normal run -- and I'm using Area Two 7 as an example -- if you had a normal run of eight units, you 8 had an ink man for each two units. 9 Q. What is a unit? 10 A. A unit of color. 11 Q. Okay. I'm sorry. I interrupted you. 12 A. Yes. And you have one man for each two units. 13 If you ran a double folder, you got an extra third MIC to help 14 out on the folder. If you had a double delivery folder, books 15 were coming out on both sides of the press. There were other 16 men added for an imprinter, which put ad prices or ad names or 17 cities on these particular books. And then there was 18 another -- an advertising card that went on what they called 19 Add A Card. You got a man for that. Any of the extra things, 20 you added a person to the crew. So it could run as high as 21 10, 11, 12 people. 22 Q. But, generally, let's say in 1988, how many 23 people were operating presses -- a particular press at 24 Standard Gravure? 25 A. An average of four people. 61 1 Q. After the magazine is folded and printed or 2 printed and folded, what happens to the magazine? 3 A. It runs on a continuous conveyer system that is 4 attached to the press. As the press lays the book down on the 5 conveyer, it's taken upstairs to the bindery area where they 6 stack the books on a pallet and bind them to send them out to 7 the customer or the different cities that we run. 8 Q. And, again, generally what were these books? 9 A. In the beginning they were mostly Sunday 10 supplements, rotogravure books in the Sunday papers. They 11 were books put out by the newspaper that could be fashions or 12 advertising, something about the city or the area. In the 13 later days, we got into -- most of the Sunday supplements were 14 dropped because of costs. They became too expensive to run, 15 so we got into commercial advertising, supplements for the 16 paper. Most of our stuff was done for newspapers. 17 Q. Would this always then be newsprint-type paper 18 that you were producing? 19 A. Yes, sir. Some of -- in a rotogravure process 20 we printed on some very slick paper, also. Some very -- a lot 21 better paper than a newspaper would be. Commercial papers 22 normally were a lot much better paper, but they were all cut 23 and sized to the newspaper we were printing them for. 24 Q. Did you know Joseph Wesbecker? 25 A. Yes, I did. 62 1 Q. When did you first meet Joseph Wesbecker? 2 A. I assume around within a few weeks of when he 3 came to Standard Gravure, around 1971 or '70, I believe. 4 Q. And at that time you had been at the Standard 5 Gravure operation for two or three years? 6 A. Yes, sir. 7 Q. Do you recall working with Mr. Wesbecker the 8 first occasion you met Mr. Wesbecker? 9 A. I don't recall the specific time, you know, that 10 I first started working with him, but my recollection of it is 11 that I worked with him probably on a lot of crews in the early 12 days because we were on the bottom of the list and we would be 13 on the same shift and most likely assigned to a lot of the 14 same crews. 15 Q. Do you recall the first time you met him? 16 A. Not in particular, no. 17 Q. What's the first thing you recall about Joseph 18 Wesbecker? 19 A. That he was a cutup; that he was the kind of guy 20 who always had a -- playing practical jokes, laughing. Seemed 21 to keep the crews in a good mood, kind of guy who would, you 22 know, kind of enjoyed life, enjoyed his job and enjoyed life. 23 Q. Did you see him socially? 24 A. No, sir. 25 Q. Why not? 63 1 A. I didn't see many people that I worked with 2 socially. 3 Q. What else? What type of worker was he? 4 A. He was a very capable worker in these early 5 days. Of course, he was doing the same jobs that I was doing, 6 ink man, reel man. 7 Q. Was he not familiar with the folder operation at 8 first like you? 9 A. You know, the folders are like -- the job is 10 like driving a car. If you can drive a car you can drive a 11 Lamborghini, but there's going to be a lot of differences 12 between the car that you normally drive and a Lamborghini, but 13 you're going to have to learn to do a lot of things 14 differently. But a folder is a folder is a folder, but there 15 are a lot of subtleties. So while he might have known and had 16 experience on a press, he might have to learn these particular 17 ones. 18 Q. Did you-all work on the same shifts? 19 A. Initially, I'm sure we worked on a lot of the 20 same shifts together because on the bottom of the list, least 21 seniority, you take what's left. I was on the five-to-one 22 occasionally, but my choice was one-to-nine. But I worked a 23 lot of shifts on the five-to-one, so I'm sure I worked with 24 him a lot. 25 Q. Do you remember anything else in particular with 64 1 Mr. Wesbecker, what kind of worker was he in connection 2 with -- did he have complaints, was he making a lot of 3 grievances, did he seem generally upset with his job? 4 A. Not in the early days, no. He was a good, 5 capable worker and he was eager to learn the folder. He was 6 eager to get into the reel jobs and he had no real complaints 7 from the beginning. 8 Q. When the Binghams sold out to Mr. Shea, was 9 there a change in the attitude in the pressroom? 10 A. Actually, the biggest changes in the pressroom 11 started long before then. 12 Q. All right. Tell the jury about that. 13 A. Starting in the '70s, late '70s and early '80s, 14 we ran through a few contracts -- we negotiated a few 15 contracts that dropped our manning. We weren't in a very good 16 position at that time. People were closing papers and 17 shutting down magazines, so we had a lot of manpower they 18 wanted to get rid of. 19 Q. So there was layoffs before Mr. Shea came; is 20 that what you're saying? 21 A. Yes. There was a buyout before Mr. Shea came 22 under the Binghams. 23 Q. What do you mean, a buyout? 24 A. They wanted to get rid of 33 people. I think it 25 was 33 people. They had cut the manning to the point that we 65 1 had a lot more people than we had work for. Rather than a 2 hardship case, just a plain layoff, they decided that a 3 buyout, anybody could take their job and leave; in other 4 words, just walk away from it. They offered them I think a 5 year's pay to just walk away. Some people who were close to 6 retirement, it was a good deal. Some people who were younger, 7 maybe wanted to get into something else, could take the money 8 and maybe invest it. 9 Q. Did everybody take advantage of the buyout? 10 A. They barely made the 33. Initially, I think 11 they had 20 or so easily, but the last 13 were very hard to 12 come by. 13 Q. Out of how many pressmen there? 14 A. At the time I think they had 180, maybe, 160, 15 180. 16 Q. So only 30 -- only 20 initially took advantage 17 of this buyout? 18 A. Yes, sir. 19 Q. Why was that? What was the judgment? 20 A. Well, you know, a year's salary is great if you 21 have something to do, if you want to invest in something. But 22 it was a very good job and made very good money. It was an 23 interesting place to work and usually in a situation like 24 that, you're there for life and nobody really wanted to leave. 25 It was a great place to work. 66 1 Q. You say there was this manpower reduction. Was 2 there salary reductions or freezes that occurred before Mr. 3 Shea took over? 4 A. Yes, sir. In I think the early '80s, I'm not 5 sure, '81, '82, most of our pressmen or a lot of our pressmen 6 when they travel on vacations, they always stop in at the 7 other newspapers and so forth, say hello, maybe some have 8 friends. One of our pressmen was going through Tennessee and 9 stopped in to see somebody and he noticed a printing plant 10 outside of town. And he asked the guy who owned the printing 11 plant, and they said they didn't know but they could find out 12 for him. So he found out it was Standard Gravure. 13 Q. Now, when was -- this was when the Binghams 14 owned Standard Gravure? 15 A. Yes, sir. This is when the Binghams owned it. 16 Q. Okay. Go ahead. And when he came back, you 17 know, he said, "They're building a plant in Tennessee." So 18 the union leaders confronted the Binghams and they denied it. 19 So after a lot of searching and record searching and so forth, 20 we found out they did indeed own it. 21 So we asked them about it, what was it all 22 about, and they said, "Well, they were just going to 23 supplement our plant, that we had a full complement of 24 printing presses and they needed some extra press time, so 25 they were just going to supplement our plant." And we asked 67 1 them why didn't we have a chance to work there or why didn't 2 we know about it, and they said, "Well, it was just a simple 3 operation." So some of our people noticed that they had also 4 had foundations poured to increase the place by two to three 5 times. 6 Q. The place in Tennessee or the place here in 7 Louisville? 8 A. The place in Tennessee. 9 Q. So we asked them about that and they said they 10 had no idea of building, just simply that they had this place 11 and so forth. So what really happened of course was we found 12 out that they were planning on building a plant and moving 13 there. 14 Q. The Binghams? 15 A. The Binghams. So we went into negotiations over 16 this. They agreed that if we took a five-year moratorium on 17 raises and took a few other concessions, that they would not 18 build any more plant -- they would not put any more presses in 19 and that they would upgrade the plant for the first time since 20 the 1950s. And in order to pay for this we had to agree to a 21 five-year, no-raise moratorium. We had profit sharing, if 22 there was any, based on a formula I can't remember, and so, 23 for this, we had to agree to no raises for five years. 24 Q. And so was that agreed to? 25 A. Very reluctantly but, yes. It was a matter of a 68 1 hatchet over your head and you had to agree to it or you would 2 be without a job. 3 Q. And when was that? 4 A. I think the early '80s. 5 Q. Well, okay. Was that moratorium still in effect 6 when Mr. Shea took over Standard Gravure? 7 A. Yes, sir. I think it had two years to go. 8 Q. Did Mr. Shea offer to lift that moratorium? 9 A. No, sir. 10 Q. Was he requested to by the union? 11 A. I'm sure we requested some sort of relief from 12 it, but Mr. Shea said that, you know, that we would abide by 13 the contract. 14 Q. And it was a valid contract? 15 A. Yes, sir; it was. He said he had to live with 16 it so we had to live with it. 17 Q. Were there any other changes or alterations made 18 under the Shea regime? 19 A. At one time in the -- I think under the 20 moratorium or shortly after the moratorium, they asked for a 21 cut in the -- in the proof press. The proof press is an extra 22 crew that proofs the cylinders to make sure that they're 23 etched correctly, and any changes that have to be made, they 24 make them before they go to press. And they asked for a 25 reduction in the proof press and finally the union agreed to 69 1 it. And when Mr. Shea came in he asked for another reduction 2 of the proof press. That's the only thing I can remember. 3 Q. Was that agreed to? 4 A. It was eventually agreed to, yes. 5 Q. Well, when Mr. Shea came and took over, were 6 there any more layoffs before September '89? There was the 7 fire in November '88. Tell the jury about that. Because did 8 that affect the work force? 9 A. Yes. Very definitely. The fire occurred on the 10 five-to-one shift in Area Two. The five third line, they 11 called it, had a web break and they were rewebbing the press, 12 taking the sheet back through the press, and when they put the 13 impression rollers down it started up a spark of electricity, 14 jumped off of the roller -- and the ink and solvents that we 15 use are highly flammable -- and caught fire. This is not an 16 unusual occurrence. It could be several times a year. But 17 when the fire hit the paper, naturally everybody scrambled and 18 hit the fire alarms and left the building. 19 We had a CO2 that would completely rob the air, 20 completely take the oxygen out of the air within 30 seconds, 21 so it was a very powerful system. And everybody scrambled 22 outside and the fire was fine, you know, it was put out and 23 they came back in. And in cleaning up -- and, of course, 24 firemen were called and they went into the building and 25 checked to see that the fire was out. And they were getting 70 1 ready to start back up and somebody said, "We better check the 2 drying ovens overhead to make sure nothing is on fire over 3 there." You couldn't see them from the floor, you had to go 4 in the second area. 5 In the process of somebody leaving, somebody 6 bailed out over the top of a drive shaft and hit an ink pump 7 lever, which pumped 55 gallons of ink onto the floor on the 8 off side of the press where the reservoirs are. So it was 9 lying on the floor, 55 gallons of ink. And when they checked 10 the ovens to see if they had any small fires there, somebody 11 saw a smoldering fire, and one of the firemen took a CO2 hand 12 extinguisher and hit the flames and it dropped the flames down 13 on top of the ink, and when it hit the ink it exploded and it 14 burned and it raged. And they tried to put it out. 15 Well, the doors are opened after a fire to vent 16 the CO2. Nobody had closed the doors. So the attempt to put 17 this fire out failed completely because when they opened the 18 lever for the CO2 to come in it went straight out the door. 19 So panic ensued after that. Firemen put more water on it. 20 The sprinklers started coming on. Water got down to the level 21 that it rolled in the basement area, which is not fireproof, 22 and after it built up enough it exploded. It completely 23 ruined the building, completely burned all the presses up, not 24 literally to the ground, but it charred them all and made them 25 inoperable. And at that point, then we shut half of our work 71 1 force down. 2 Q. Were you laid off? 3 A. No. I had enough seniority that I wouldn't be 4 affected. 5 Q. And this was November 1988 when this occurred? 6 A. I think that's the correct date. 7 Q. And Mr. Wesbecker was already out on long-term 8 disability, as far as you know, at that time? 9 A. I believe so, yes. 10 Q. Tell me -- let's go back to Mr. Wesbecker. 11 You've described in the early '70s and early '80s. Did you 12 ever notice any change in Mr. Wesbecker? 13 A. He was fairly even-tempered most of the time. 14 He was working under the same conditions everybody else was. 15 He was working a lot of overtime. He seemed to change in 16 the -- it seemed to me late '70s. He got a little more 17 irritated than normal. You have to understand that when you 18 work overtime -- let's say if you have six men on the crew, at 19 the end of the shift they try to let anybody who's on a double 20 who's working overtime go early by two hours. Sometimes there 21 are two men on the crew and you can only let one go home 22 early. 23 Now, one of the problems on the folder and one 24 of the problems everybody had on the folder is if you were a 25 folder man and you were working a double, they couldn't always 72 1 let you go; you had to stay there on the folder. Somebody had 2 to relieve you, and if there wasn't anybody qualified to 3 relieve you, then you didn't get a break. It happened to all 4 of us. Everybody had to stay sometimes -- everybody had to 5 flip sometimes to get out, a coin flip, you know, usually left 6 early. 7 So he was working a lot of overtime at the time 8 and I attributed it to the fact that if you worked -- the more 9 you worked the less chance you have of getting out, you know, 10 your odds are going against you. And at the time he was 11 fighting to get off the folder or said he didn't want to work 12 the folder because of the stress, but -- and I also heard that 13 he was going through a divorce. So those kind of forces I 14 guess caused him to be a little irritable, but I didn't notice 15 anything other than everybody else was going through. 16 Q. Were you still working with him on a 17 semi-frequent basis? 18 A. I believe at that time I was on day work, 19 nine-to-five shift, and he came in at 5:00. So I wouldn't 20 have worked with him unless I worked over or he came in early. 21 Q. Was this stress that he was complaining about, 22 did he complain that it was miserable for him or anything of 23 that nature? 24 A. I never really heard him -- I never really sat 25 down with him and talked to him about it. It was just a 73 1 matter of everybody had problems in those days and he was one 2 of the people that was having problems and one of the people 3 that was, you know, had a lot of irritation because of the 4 amount of work. But I never really did sit down and discuss 5 this with him. But I noticed at the time he was one of the 6 people having problems like all of us were. 7 Q. Mr. Campbell, in any of the times that you were 8 working there with Mr. Wesbecker or had any association with 9 Mr. Wesbecker, do you know of any instances where Mr. 10 Wesbecker was put on the folder purposely to increase his 11 stress level or anything? 12 A. No, sir. If I could explain something, the 13 person on the folder is responsible for the -- for the 14 production of that press. Lost production is lost money. The 15 foreman who assigns the person to that press has to have 16 enough confidence in him to run the press to keep production 17 up. He's not going to put somebody on the folder that is 18 going to fail or somebody on the folder who does not want to 19 work there who may fail on purpose, because it would be his 20 responsibility. Time is money and money, you know, is what we 21 all work for. So the foreman wouldn't purposely put anybody 22 in a position where he would fail or he would -- because he 23 didn't know it or whatever, because he was ultimately 24 responsible for this. Whatever -- if he failed, then the 25 foreman was ultimately responsible for that. So to put 74 1 somebody on there to punish them would have been just like, 2 you know, shooting himself in the foot because it's not 3 something he would do. 4 Q. So it would be counterproductive to put an 5 individual on the press that didn't want to be on the press? 6 A. Yes, sir. 7 Q. And were there generally people there that could 8 operate the press that were willing to operate the press? 9 A. There were a certain core of people that they 10 used to operate the presses. There was also a secondary bunch 11 who could work the folder in their absence, vacations and so 12 forth. And then you probably got down to the point where you 13 had a lot of people who just didn't have that kind of 14 experience on the folder; they could operate the folder but 15 just didn't have that kind of experience on there, so you had 16 to make a decision based on your best people. Sometimes you 17 had to pull a second man off of a crew and put him over as man 18 in charge on another crew to even the crews out and to have 19 enough manpower that knew what they were doing to operate the 20 press, because the idea behind it was, of course, production. 21 Q. Did you ever do any foreman work? Were you ever 22 a supervisor at all? 23 A. Yes, sir. I worked I think in 19 -- late 1986, 24 '87 and '88 as acting foreman on the nine-to-five shift. 25 There were two of us that worked in the office when the 75 1 foremen would be off on holidays or vacations or maybe they 2 were needed someplace else. 3 Q. Did you ever assign -- did you know Joseph 4 Wesbecker didn't want to be on the folder? 5 A. I knew he did not want to work the folder at 6 times, yes. Yes. 7 Q. Did you ever assign Joseph Wesbecker to work the 8 folder when he didn't want to work the folder? 9 A. Yes, sir. I assigned him one time in early '88. 10 Q. Tell the jury about that. 11 A. I was working as a foreman on the nine-to-five 12 shift, and for some reason or another Wesbecker was working 13 the day-work shift that day. I'm not sure if he was on it all 14 week or just for that particular day. So when I went to make 15 the list out, I had to use the best men that I could, and he 16 was one of the best men available so I assigned him to a crew. 17 We put a list on the door so that when the men come in they 18 can see it from the outside. And one of the pressmen came in 19 that morning and pulled the list down and brought it in to me 20 and says, "Wesbecker doesn't work the folder anymore." And I 21 said I didn't know that. I had seen him work it many times. 22 Q. In the past? 23 A. Please? 24 Q. You had seen him work it many times in the past? 25 A. Many times in the past. I didn't have any 76 1 current record of working with him. 2 Q. Go ahead. I'm sorry. 3 A. So I said, "If he doesn't work it, then I'll 4 take him off." So I scratched him off and put him on the inks 5 and put somebody else up there. The person I put up wasn't as 6 good, but if this is the case, then I would replace him with 7 somebody that I could. And the list was put back up and Mr. 8 Wesbecker never saw it. 9 Q. So that was the instance where you had assigned 10 him to the folder not knowing that he preferred not to work 11 the folder, but then when it was made known to you that he 12 didn't, you took him off the folder? 13 A. I think at this time the person -- and I believe 14 it was Charlie Miller told me that they don't work him anymore 15 unless they have to, if you could find somebody else. And I 16 said, "I didn't know that," so I changed it. 17 Q. Did you make any complaints about having to do 18 that? 19 A. Did I make any complaints? 20 Q. Yes. 21 A. No. If they -- they, by that I mean I'm 22 assuming the company said not to put him on there, then I'd 23 have to do what I had to do to find somebody else. 24 Q. Did you have any other dealings with Mr. 25 Wesbecker during this, let's say, 1985-to-1988 period? 77 1 A. I had very little contact with him during that 2 time because I was on daywork and he stayed on the five-to-one 3 shift. 4 Q. Were you aware that Mr. Wesbecker was off on 5 long-term disability at some point? 6 A. At some point I was aware that he was not there 7 anymore, that he was off. 8 Q. What was your understanding as to the nature of 9 his disability and why he was off? 10 A. I didn't have any, you know, information. I 11 assumed that he was off because of whatever medical reason 12 that he had to be off. I only heard that they said Joseph 13 Wesbecker went to Our Lady of Peace Hospital, which is a 14 mental hospital, so I assumed it had something to do with 15 mental problems. 16 Q. But as far as you were concerned, his disability 17 was related to a mental illness as opposed to a heart attack 18 or a stroke or something of that nature? 19 A. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. 20 MR. SMITH: Your Honor, I'm fixing to change 21 subjects. Do you want me to continue with my direct? 22 JUDGE POTTER: I was hoping to get the break 23 between you and Mr. Stopher. How much have you got left? 24 MR. SMITH: Well, Mr. Campbell was shot. 25 JUDGE POTTER: I tell you what. Ladies and 78 1 gentlemen, we'll take our morning break at this time. As I 2 mentioned to you-all before, do not permit anybody to discuss 3 this case with you. Do not discuss it among yourselves and do 4 not form or express any opinions about it. We'll stand in 5 recess for 15 minutes. 6 (RECESS) 7 SHERIFF CECIL: The jury is now entering. All 8 jurors are present. 9 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Please be seated. 10 Mr. Campbell, I'll remind you you're still under 11 oath. 12 Mr. Smith? 13 MR. SMITH: What shift were you working on 14 September 14th, 1989, Mr. Campbell? 15 A. I was on the nine-to-five shift. 16 Q. And what time did you arrive at work that 17 morning? 18 A. My wife and I rode together and she had to be at 19 work at 8:30, so I'm sure she got there -- it was across the 20 street so we probably got to her place 25 after, so I got to 21 work about 8:30. 22 Q. Tell the jury what you did there that morning 23 before you got into the break room. 24 A. I went to the locker room in Area Two, locker 25 room that we still had open, changed clothes and went to the 79 1 break area. And after I checked the door to see where I was 2 working, I went to the break area, which was next door, sat 3 down with a cup of coffee and started reading the newspaper. 4 Q. Were you one of the workers who would take 5 clothes with you to work and then change before you left? 6 A. Yes, sir. 7 Q. Would you normally take a shower at work? 8 A. Yes, sir. Took a shower, yes. 9 Q. Did you carry a gym bag or anything of that 10 nature? 11 A. Yeah, I had a gym bag. 12 Q. Was that common to see pressmen carrying bags of 13 that nature? 14 A. I'd say, you know, 75 percent of them carried a 15 bag of some sort to and from work. 16 Q. Because they were going to have to change 17 clothes? 18 A. Change clothes. A lot of them carried their 19 lunches in it and so forth. 20 Q. Did you-all have some commercial laundry that 21 would pick up your dirty clothes and clean them or did you 22 have to take them home? 23 A. You could rent uniforms. At this particular 24 time I wasn't, but you could rent them. And they brought them 25 in, put them on a hanger right inside the door of the break 80 1 area, as a matter of fact. 2 Q. Were you sitting in the break room when you were 3 shot? 4 A. Yes, sir. I was right inside the door to the 5 left. I would have been at the first table, sitting with my 6 back sort of at an angle to the door. 7 Q. Why don't you come down here, Mike. 8 Do I need to slide this up, Your Honor? 9 JUDGE POTTER: Whatever. 10 Q. I think we have a blowup at some point, but is 11 this the break room area? 12 A. Yes, it is. 13 Q. All right. Where were you sitting -- why don't 14 you take us on your route from the locker room where you 15 changed clothes into the -- 16 A. Okay. I would have taken the same route. I was 17 in the other building, Area Two building. I was taking the 18 same route that Mr. Wesbecker took. I came through the 19 storage area where Mr. Stein worked and came down these set of 20 steps and would have gone through the pressroom just like 21 this, the same route. 22 Q. All right. And then you changed in the locker 23 area? 24 A. No, sir. I changed in another locker room on 25 the other side of the building. 81 1 Q. Why were you coming to this break room? 2 A. Because after the fire there was only one 3 pressroom left. The pressroom on the other side had been 4 destroyed by the fire, and at this point we only had one 5 pressroom operating. 6 Q. Where were you seated? 7 A. I was seated just inside the door behind the -- 8 behind the door at this table. 9 Q. So this would have been your chair right here? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. All right. And Mr. Fentress was here? 12 A. I think a little further over here. 13 Q. All right. What time did you sit down in the 14 break room? 15 A. I would say 20 till -- 25 till, somewhere in 16 that neighborhood. 17 Q. And how long was it that you remained in the 18 break room until this incident occurred? 19 A. It couldn't have been more than five minutes. 20 Q. Do you remember what you did during that 21 five-minute period of time? 22 A. I was just sitting at the table reading a paper 23 and drinking coffee. 24 Q. Do you remember whether or not you had had any 25 conversations with anybody? 82 1 A. No. I was pretty much reading the paper and -- 2 you know, you could listen to conversation, people coming in 3 and make comments and you may answer or not answer the 4 comments, but there were a lot of people coming in from the 5 locker room putting their lunches into the refrigerator, 6 talking to people, leaving. Some would go outside the door in 7 the pressroom. 8 Q. Did you hear shots? 9 A. Yes, sir; I did, what I thought were shots. 10 Q. Tell the jury about the shots. 11 A. After I had been sitting there a few minutes, 12 there was a couple of pops outside the door, it sounded like 13 pop, pop like a balloon breaking and I was immediately alerted 14 but I didn't -- you know, it sounded like a gun and it didn't 15 sound like a gun. Somebody made a comment about somebody 16 coming in or Charlie -- I forget how it was. But there were 17 several comments made. "It looks like Charlie came in to say 18 good morning," or something. 19 Q. Who was Charlie? 20 A. I assume it would have been Charlie Ganote. 21 Q. Why would they have been making these comments 22 about Charlie? 23 A. Because Charlie was one who carried a gun in 24 every day or used to. I'm not sure he was at this time, but 25 he did carry one. 83 1 Q. All right. How did he get away with carrying a 2 gun in every day when there was, as I understand it, a company 3 policy against such practice? 4 A. I don't really know why he was allowed or why 5 nothing happened, but it was common knowledge that he carried 6 a gun and that he left it in his locker, that it was not a 7 threat to any of us, so I suppose everybody just felt 8 comfortable with the fact that he carried it in and left it 9 there. 10 Q. So he wasn't wearing a holster -- operating the 11 press with a gun on his holster? 12 A. No, sir. I heard that he carried it in a bag or 13 a lunch box. 14 Q. Had there ever been any gun incidents or 15 problems with guns there at that plant? 16 A. Not to my knowledge, no. 17 Q. Go ahead. You heard the pops. There was this 18 comment about Charlie. Then what happened next? 19 A. And I was alerted, not necessarily getting up, 20 but I just thought it sounded like a gunshot, but it really 21 didn't. And I thought, "Well, I don't know where I can go, go 22 through this door that's facing me, goes into the locker room 23 or go out the back of the door into the pressroom." But I 24 thought, "I really don't know where it came from," and as I 25 thought that, I turned towards the door, which was behind me 84 1 and I saw -- 2 Q. Was there a -- don't let me interrupt you, but 3 was there a lot of noises there in the pressroom? 4 A. Well, the pressroom, the press itself, I think 5 Number One was on a make-ready so they were not running, and 6 I'm not sure about Number Three but I don't think they were 7 running, but Number Two was running full speed ahead, and it 8 has a decibel level of a jet engine running, so it's extremely 9 noisy, plus the fact that we're sitting in a room with a lot 10 of people walking in and out, talking, slamming doors and so 11 forth. 12 Q. Go ahead. I interrupted you. 13 A. And when I looked over my shoulder I saw the 14 door open like this, and all I could see was this gun pushing 15 the door open. The door has a Plexiglas top half. But it's 16 Plexiglas and it's plastic, and it gets scratched with people 17 pushing things and hitting. So I couldn't really see anything 18 except this door opening, and this gun looked to me like a 19 rifle of some sort, and he held it at his waist and I 20 immediately just turned; I thought, "Oh, God, it's a gun." 21 And I turned away from it and I just didn't want to see it 22 shoot me. I assumed that whoever put a gun in the door was 23 going to shoot, so I just turned away from it. 24 Q. Then what happened? 25 A. I heard a couple of shots, two or three shots. 85 1 At the time seemed like it was in a cadence; pop-pop-pop, 2 pop-pop-pop, pop-pop-pop. I'm not sure if it was two or three 3 or what it was. Sort of a cadence. I heard a couple of 4 shots, two or three shots and I felt my body jerk and my knee 5 burn like fire. I thought, "God, I've been hit. That hurt." 6 I just bent over like I was dead. I was trying to act like I 7 was dead so I wouldn't get shot again. But I think my leg had 8 been up over the chair or something but, anyway, my leg flew 9 out when it got shot and I just leaned against the table. 10 Q. Had at that point you been shot or were you 11 aware of whether you had been shot one time or numerous times? 12 A. The first shot went through my knee or a shot 13 went through my knee and you knew that. I could feel that. 14 That was very painful. I didn't know I had been shot any more 15 than that. I heard three shots and it continued around the 16 room: pop-pop-pop, pop-pop-pop, pop-pop-pop. And I was 17 leaning over trying to just keep my eyes closed. It was very 18 hard to do, but I was trying to keep my eyes closed and just 19 hoping and praying that he wouldn't come back and shoot me. 20 And at that time I just thought, you know, I'm going to die 21 and I don't know why; you know, why am I going to die in this 22 room; I don't know why anybody would want to shoot us; I'll 23 never see my family again and I couldn't understand it. But 24 it went on around the room, and at that point the firing 25 stopped and somebody got up and left, I couldn't really see 86 1 because I had my eyes mostly closed. 2 Q. Did you see anybody get shot in that first 3 barrage? 4 A. No, sir. I never actually saw them get shot. 5 It was just a feeling of bodies flying and things hitting the 6 floor. 7 Q. Was water hitting you? 8 A. I don't recall it hitting me, but it was 9 spraying into the room. You could hear it spraying into the 10 room. And that's the only really sound -- the gun was making 11 the only sound besides that water. I couldn't hear anybody 12 else say anything. 13 Q. There's been descriptions that in that first 14 round there was 20 or 30 shots fired. Does that comport with 15 your recollection? 16 A. That sounds about right to me. He kept firing. 17 Pop-pop-pop, pop-pop-pop, pop-pop-pop, pop-pop-pop. Later I 18 learned seven of us there, I'm thinking he probably shot, I'm 19 thinking, everybody three times. That's what I heard, like a 20 cadence of firing -- pop-pop-pop, pop-pop-pop -- so, you know, 21 at least 20 times. 22 Q. All right. Then what happened? 23 A. Then, you know, as I said, someone jumped up and 24 ran out of the room, or hobbled out of the room. 25 Q. Could you tell which way they would have been 87 1 going out of the room? 2 A. I'm laying forward and the door is here. They 3 just ran toward the locker room door. I could hear them 4 running away. 5 Q. The locker room door. This door here? 6 A. Yes, sir. They ran through this door. I was 7 facing this way, so it was actually off sort of to my right. 8 Q. Mike, go ahead. 9 A. And at this point things got very quiet and it 10 just ran through my mind "I'm going to get assassinated." It 11 just dawned on me he's going to walk up behind me and blow me 12 away. And I was fighting panic and I was fighting trying to 13 stay still and, you know, not breathe, anything I could do to 14 keep from him coming back. And all of a sudden I heard 15 pop-pop-pop and I felt my body jerk all over the place. And 16 it started again, pop-pop-pop, pop-pop-pop, pop-pop-pop. And 17 at this point, I had my head down and I could see and -- hear 18 rather than see bullets hitting furniture, and it sounded like 19 the floor and whatever ricocheting. 20 Q. Are you still in the chair? 21 A. I'm still in the chair sort of leaning against 22 the table. 23 Q. Go ahead. 24 A. And I could hear movement of people bouncing 25 around like. And then the bullets stopped, the firing stopped 88 1 and I thought, "Oh, God, where is he," you know, and nothing 2 for a few seconds, and then I heard somebody say, "He's gone," 3 and somebody else got up and ran out. 4 Q. Out the locker room door or the front door? 5 A. Out the locker room door again behind me or to 6 the right of me. And when -- after they left, then Hoffmann 7 said, "We've got to get out of here. We've got to get some 8 help or we're going to bleed to death." 9 Q. Where were you shot the second time that he came 10 in? 11 A. I have no idea. I just felt my body jerk. I 12 wasn't aware of any wound besides the one in my knee. 13 Q. Later did you find out where you were shot? 14 A. I was shot in both arms and both legs. But Mr. 15 Hoffmann said, "We've got to get out of here; we've got to get 16 some help. Can you get out of the chair?" And I said, "I 17 don't think so. I know my knee is blown away. I don't know 18 whether anything else is, but I'll try." 19 So I tried to get up out of the chair and when I 20 did it this arm gave way and I fell on the floor. And I was 21 lying on the floor on my back and I could tell at that point 22 this arm didn't work, it was loose and dangling and my left 23 leg was loose and dangling, just flopping over; I didn't have 24 any control over it. And at this point I saw a big flap of 25 skin hanging down off my left arm. And I could tell my legs 89 1 were numb, sort of numb, but I couldn't really tell. I knew I 2 had been shot a lot. I could feel it then when I hit the 3 floor. 4 And Mr. Hoffmann said, "I've got to go get some 5 help," so he crawled across part of me. I'm not sure what 6 part of me because I was lying in front blocking the door in 7 this area where the little arrow is. I came out of this chair 8 and fell straight down. So he crawled across me and went out 9 the door. And as the door opened, I was laying -- lying on my 10 back and I looked this way and I could see someone lying 11 facedown in a -- looked like facedown in a pool of blood right 12 outside the door, a few feet from the door. 13 Q. Outside this door? 14 A. So it would have been right in this area right 15 here. 16 Q. Was that Joseph Wesbecker? 17 A. I didn't recognize the person as being anybody 18 that I knew, but I recognized it as, I guess in my mind, that 19 it was the same coat I saw and the same hair, I guess, that I 20 saw. Consciously didn't think he's killed himself or somebody 21 shot him, I just -- I saw that person lying there. 22 Q. All right. 23 A. And at that point I knew Mr. Hoffmann wasn't 24 coming back, so I thought, "I've got to get out of here." 25 There's water on the floor and somehow or another something 90 1 went through my mind about when you -- people commit suicide 2 they cut their wrists and stick it in water, and I thought, 3 "I'm going to bleed to death; I'm lying in a pool of water and 4 blood's everywhere. I've got to get out of here." And I 5 don't know where he is. I'm thinking all the time, "I've got 6 to get away from this room." So I started inching on my back 7 towards the door, the locker room door, towards this door. My 8 legs weren't working very well. And this leg wasn't working 9 at all and this arm wasn't working and I'm scared of this arm, 10 so I inched on my back with my shoulder and got through the 11 locker room door, and then I got to outside the locker room 12 door here, and this door opens in. 13 Q. You mean you crawled on your back all the way -- 14 A. Yes. I scooted on my back all the way through 15 the locker room and over to here. 16 Q. Was there not anybody in the locker room at that 17 time? 18 A. No. There was no one around at all. 19 Q. Okay. 20 A. And when I got to this point the door opened in. 21 So I thought, "How am I going to get out of this thing. I 22 can't use either one of my arms." So I tried to get this arm 23 up in the air and I finally got it up and got it on the 24 doorknob and got my head in the door and I kept pushing 25 backwards and forward until I got my shoulders in, and then I 91 1 got out into the hallway. 2 And this hallway goes down this way and there's 3 elevators here, and this is the exit to get out of the 4 building. And I thought, "If I can get out of here and if 5 there's anybody out there, then I can get some help." So I 6 got in the hallway and started whistling and screaming, 7 "Somebody help us. We're all dying in here." And I didn't 8 hear anything for a while and then finally a guy said, "I hear 9 you, buddy, but we just can't come in. We don't know where he 10 is. We don't know what happened. We don't know what kind of 11 guns he's got or anything." And I said, "He just shot 12 himself." Of course, I kicked myself later for saying that 13 because I wasn't sure that he had shot himself. It was just 14 that look of that guy on the floor just told me that. I guess 15 I put this guy's life in jeopardy, but he ran in real fast and 16 said, "Where are you shot?" 17 "Everywhere." 18 "What does the guy look like?" 19 "He had on a light color jacket, brown or green, 20 and it looked like red or blond hair, kind of curly." 21 So he ran down the hallway to this area here and 22 opened these doors and looked in. He evidently saw Mr. 23 Wesbecker on the floor. 24 Q. Was this a policeman or an EMS? 25 A. It was an EMS agent. 92 1 Q. Go ahead. 2 A. And when he came back to me, he said, "He 3 appears to be dead." So he yelled at somebody and the police 4 just started coming in. And his helper came in and they put 5 me on a board and on a gurney and out I went. 6 Q. Okay. Anything else that you -- did you see 7 what happened to Bill Hoffmann? 8 A. No. Mr. Hoffmann went out the door and went 9 next door, and, you know, he had a serious wound in his chest. 10 He was breathing very heavily and I thought either something 11 happened to him or he couldn't get back in or maybe he got 12 help, I don't know, but he was gone and I knew I had to get 13 out of there. 14 Q. Did you see anybody else laying in the break 15 room area when you crawled out? 16 A. Yes, sir; I did. When I was on my back and I 17 decided that I had to get out, I punched -- punched somebody 18 under the table that I thought was Gordon Scherer, it turned 19 out to be Mr. Ganote. I said, "Gordon, come on. We got to 20 get out of here; we got to get out of here," and he didn't 21 move. So I thought, "Well, he's probably dead." And I looked 22 to the left and Kenny Fentress was lying face down at this 23 point and just groaning. And I could see where he had been 24 shot and I thought, "I've got to get out of here," so I just 25 left. 93 1 Q. Okay. Okay. When was it that you learned that 2 the man had -- that had shot you was Joseph Wesbecker? 3 A. The next -- the next day or so in the hospital. 4 When I was taken to the hospital -- I was, of course, one of 5 the last to be taken. I was one of the last to be shot, and 6 my wounds weren't life threatening so they explained to me 7 "Everybody here, you know, has life-threatening wounds. 8 You're going to be last." And I said, "That's fine with me. 9 You know, I'm glad to be here." And sometime during that day 10 I was taken into the operating room and I was there ten hours 11 in the operating room, and I assume the next day, sometime 12 during that day I heard that it was Joseph Wesbecker. 13 Q. You never saw Joseph Wesbecker's face that 14 morning? 15 A. No, sir. 16 Q. Did you ever do anything to Joseph Wesbecker to 17 cause him to shoot you? 18 A. No, sir. 19 Q. Do you know of anything that any of those men 20 did in that break room that would have caused him to shoot 21 them? 22 A. I never saw anybody do anything that would cause 23 them to be killed and I don't know what they could have 24 possibly done to him. 25 Q. That's all I have. 94 1 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Stopher? 2 3 EXAMINATION ___________ 4 5 BY_MR._STOPHER: __ ___ ________ 6 Q. Mr. Campbell, let me go back to some other 7 topics that you mentioned earlier this morning, sir. With 8 regard to the operations of the press, sir, if I understand 9 correctly, in the mid to late 1980s, the crew for those 10 presses was down to four individuals; am I correct about that? 11 A. To the best of my recollection. I know that it 12 happened in that period of time. 13 Q. All right. And at the same time, sir, if I 14 understand correctly, there was a wage freeze in effect? 15 A. I think it started in '83, '84; yes, sir. There 16 was one in effect. 17 Q. And if I understand correctly, then, sir, none 18 of the pressmen got a single raise of a single penny for how 19 many years? 20 A. Our contract was up like a year before this 21 moratorium, so five years -- it would have been six years. 22 Q. Six years? 23 A. Yeah. Approximately six years. 24 Q. During that same period of time, sir, did I 25 understand you to say that the number of books that were to be 95 1 produced off of these presses was increased? 2 A. From the point that we installed new folders, 3 which would have been in '83, I think. 4 Q. '83, I believe, sir. 5 A. Therefore, we had the capacity to run a lot 6 faster; yes, sir. The increase was done from that point on. 7 Once they had broken them in, they gradually increased the 8 speeds of the presses. 9 Q. When Mr. Shea came in, Mr. Campbell, did he 10 require that the speeds of the presses be increased even above 11 the sixty to sixty-five thousand books per hour? 12 A. Yes, sir. He tried to get more production. 13 Q. And how fast did Mr. Shea want the presses to 14 run? 15 A. Well, like anything else, they wanted you to run 16 them at the top speed that you could run safely that you could 17 run with quality, so, you know, he wanted quality to stay the 18 same but try to get better speeds, more speed out of it. 19 Q. Did he ever get up as high as requiring or 20 requesting or recommending eighty to ninety thousand books per 21 hour? 22 A. No, sir. The presses wouldn't run that fast. 23 Q. The presses would actually overheat, if I 24 understand correctly, when he attempted to make them run that 25 fast; is that true? 96 1 A. They would probably come apart; yes, sir. 2 Q. Those presses were pretty old. They had new 3 folders but most of these presses down there dated back to the 4 '30s and '40s; am I correct? 5 A. My understanding, some parts of it, yes, were 6 '30s. 7 Q. Now, Mr. Campbell, at that point, if you were 8 the man in charge, were you paid a regular pressman's wage 9 that had been frozen for five or six years? 10 A. Yes, sir. Plus an additional pay. 11 Q. And what was the additional pay? 12 A. At that time I think it was $5 for a man in 13 charge and $3 for a second man. 14 Q. So if I understand correctly, it would be $5 per 15 shift? 16 A. Yes, sir. 17 Q. For the first man in charge? 18 A. Yes, sir. 19 Q. And $3 per shift for the second man in charge? 20 A. Yes, sir. 21 Q. And, otherwise, the rate would be the same as 22 the man who would be working the reel? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Or the ink man? 25 A. Yes. 97 1 Q. Now, Mr. Campbell, I understand that you liked 2 to work the folder; am I correct about that? 3 A. Yes, sir. 4 Q. And I assume from what you said earlier this 5 morning that there were some men that didn't like to work the 6 folder; is that true? 7 A. There were some who knew how to work the folder 8 and didn't particularly want to. They would work it, but 9 didn't particularly want to. There were others who felt they 10 didn't have the skills needed to run the folder and they were 11 nervous about working the folder. They would work it, but 12 they preferred not to. 13 Q. And were there some people who were nervous 14 about working the folder? 15 A. Yes, sir. 16 Q. And did working the folder make their 17 nervousness worse? 18 A. I don't recall anybody -- observing anybody but 19 I -- study of human nature would say so, yes. 20 Q. Was it a job, sir, that was more stressful than 21 being the reel man on the press? 22 A. It had a higher level of stress, yes, than the 23 reel man. 24 Q. And in fact, sir, do I understand correctly that 25 approximately every one-half hour the first man in charge and 98 1 the second man in charge would rotate when the press was 2 running? 3 A. Yes, sir. When the press was running. 4 Q. And then in the make-ready, of course, the first 5 man in charge would be generally in charge of that? 6 A. He had duties to perform, everybody knew their 7 duties and he was ultimately responsible. He would check from 8 time to time, but he had duties of his own to do. And it was 9 sort of a crew effort, but he was ultimately responsible for 10 it. 11 Q. Now, sir, if I understand correctly, you 12 mentioned this morning that the Binghams auctioned off their 13 holdings, including Standard Gravure. My understanding is 14 that in June of 1986, Mr. Shea actually acquired Standard 15 Gravure; is that about right, sir? 16 A. That sounds right to me. 17 Q. And are you familiar with the fact, sir, that 18 shortly after Mr. Shea purchased Standard Gravure that he took 19 money out of the employees' pension plan? 20 A. Yes, sir. 21 Q. Do you know how much money he took out? 22 A. The figure was 8 million, 10 million, 11 23 million. It varied with the person telling the story, but I 24 understand it was at least 8 million. 25 Q. Did Mr. Shea ever advise the employees exactly 99 1 how much money he took out of the pension plan? 2 A. I don't remember seeing anything in writing. It 3 was common knowledge that he had taken that, yes. 4 Q. But the amount was not known? 5 A. I think the amount was a guess. 6 Q. Did that have any effect on morale and the 7 attitude of the employees in the pressroom toward Mr. Shea and 8 his management? 9 A. I think that a lot of people understood the 10 process of taking excess funds out of retirements; it's common 11 business practice. But I think a lot of people didn't 12 understand the practice and became very upset, yes. 13 Q. A lot of people became pretty hostile about 14 that? 15 A. On some occasions, yes. 16 Q. In November of 1988, you've mentioned a big fire 17 and explosion that occurred, sir. 18 A. Yes, sir. 19 Q. And the net result of that explosion and fire 20 was that the three big presses in Area Two were damaged; am I 21 correct? 22 A. Yes, sir. My understanding is they were ruined. 23 Q. And did Mr. Shea announce what his plans were 24 immediately, whether they were to replace and repair those 25 presses and reoperate or what he was going to do? 100 1 A. His -- his statement at the time was, "Let's dig 2 in, clean this up and see what we can salvage from this 3 operation." He in fact hired -- I think the insurance company 4 hired a cleanup crew for the presses and then he later hired 5 us at our regular rate to clean the presses and to try to get 6 them back into some kind of condition. My understanding was 7 that he was trying to assess the damage at this time to see 8 what his future business plans would be. 9 Q. And did he ultimately decide not to repair and 10 replace those presses and to close it down? 11 A. Yes, sir. 12 Q. And layoffs ensued? 13 A. Within a few months, yes. 14 Q. Did Mr. Shea ever advise the pressmen how many 15 millions of dollars he got from the insurance company off of 16 those presses? 17 MR. SMITH: We'd object to that, Your Honor, as 18 immaterial and irrelevant. 19 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Approach the bench. 20 (BENCH DISCUSSION) 21 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Stopher? 22 MR. STOPHER: Your Honor, this is in rebuttal to 23 the proof that Mr. Smith introduced yesterday that Mr. Shea 24 was not a corporate raider, that he came in and left the 25 assets all in place. In actual fact, Your Honor, he recovered 101 1 12 million dollars from the insurance company and didn't 2 replace the presses, and it did create hostility in addition 3 to the layoffs. It's in rebuttal to what he introduced 4 yesterday. 5 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. I think it's probably 6 relevant whether or not these people in the pressroom, what 7 they thought was going on. Objection is overruled. 8 MR. SMITH: Whether or not they knew the amount 9 that was paid. 10 JUDGE POTTER: That's what he's asking. The guy 11 can say, "I don't know." 12 MR. SMITH: Is that the end of it, that he 13 doesn't know? 14 JUDGE POTTER: If he doesn't know, then that's 15 the end of it. 16 (BENCH DISCUSSION CONCLUDED) 17 Q. Mr. Campbell, my question was: Were the 18 pressmen ever told how much money Mr. Shea recovered from the 19 insurance company for the damage to those presses? 20 A. I don't remember ever seeing anything about 21 that. 22 Q. Do you recall, Mr. Campbell, approximately how 23 many men were laid off after that fire and explosion in the 24 decision not to reopen that area of presses? 25 A. No. I don't remember a number but it was a 102 1 considerable number because it would have been, you know, 2 maybe a third of our crew, our complement of people. 3 Q. And would that one-third be the people with the 4 least seniority; is that the way those layoffs worked? 5 A. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. From the bottom up. 6 Q. If I understood you correctly, also, sir, this 7 morning you mentioned that at one point in time there was 8 another layoff requested to reduce the number of people on the 9 proof presses. Am I correct about that? 10 A. Yes, sir. I think -- I'm trying to remember the 11 time frame. I think it was around 1985. 12 Q. Mr. Campbell, when Mr. Shea bought the company 13 and shortly after his purchase, did he announce that he was 14 going to terminate retiree benefits, including medical and 15 hospitalization? 16 A. Not as -- not as a policy. Mr. Shea took over, 17 he had policies like anybody else that has a disclaimer that 18 all this can be changed at any time without any special notice 19 but I don't -- didn't hear him or see anything in writing that 20 said he would do this. 21 Q. Wasn't there in fact a lawsuit filed to try to 22 prevent him from terminating those benefits? 23 A. I have no knowledge of that. 24 Q. You're not aware of what action the union took 25 on that? 103 1 A. No, sir. I wasn't involved with it. 2 Q. Did Mr. Shea's lines of communication with the 3 men in the pressroom improve between 1986 and 1989, stay the 4 same or get worse? 5 A. There was an air of hope and, you know, a 6 combination of maybe we're going to make it, maybe this person 7 can have our -- make our business better, keep our jobs; and 8 after the fire I think that lessened somewhat. 9 Q. After the fire and those layoffs, people were 10 not enthusiastic in the pressroom? 11 A. I wouldn't say "not enthusiastic." I think 12 everybody went about their business of doing, but I think 13 everybody had a certain element of -- in the back of their 14 mind that they might -- there might be layoffs, there might 15 be -- we might not make it. 16 Q. Now, sir, if I understand correctly, you met 17 Joseph Wesbecker in the early 1970s when he began working at 18 Standard Gravure. 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Was he sometimes referred to or people like him 21 referred to as travelers? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Those were people that came in from outside? 24 A. That's true. 25 Q. In connection with him, sir, isn't it a fact 104 1 that he was given the nickname Pillsbury Doughboy at Fawcett 2 Printing Company and not at Standard Gravure? 3 A. I have no knowledge of that. 4 Q. Did you ever hear any other nicknames applied to 5 him at Standard Gravure? 6 A. One other name later on they called -- some 7 people called him Rocky. 8 Q. Rocky? 9 A. Yes, sir. 10 Q. Do you know the circumstances behind that 11 nickname? 12 A. My understanding was it came about by an 13 altercation Mr. Wesbecker had with a female in the Media Mix 14 club. 15 Q. What altercation, sir? 16 A. What I gather and what I heard through the 17 grapevine was that he was -- got into an argument with a woman 18 and she slapped him or something to that effect. 19 Q. If I understand correctly, Mr. Campbell, you 20 didn't have a lot of close contact with him during the 1970s; 21 am I accurate in that understanding, sir? 22 A. Yes. It was a working relationship. 23 Q. You just would see him at work. You wouldn't 24 see him off the premises; am I right? 25 A. No, sir. I would never see him off the premises 105 1 other than walking across the street, but not socially at all. 2 Q. And I gather from what you've told us this 3 morning that even at work you were not particularly close to 4 him on breaks or at lunchtime or anything like that; am I 5 correct about that? 6 A. We didn't pal around; no, sir. 7 Q. Okay, sir. If I understand correctly, sir, you 8 were aware that sometime in the late '70s or in the early '80s 9 that he was involved in a divorce? 10 A. I'm not sure of the time frame, but, yes, I was 11 aware -- at one point aware that he was going through a 12 divorce. 13 Q. And at that time, sir, didn't you observe that 14 he became very agitated? 15 A. At this time he was agitated, more or less like 16 he was for the last few years. I attributed it to the 17 problems at home, yes. 18 Q. And he had been agitated as you observed him for 19 a number of years then, sir? 20 A. In the context that I talked about before. 21 There were a lot of pressures of working overtime. There was 22 a lot of disagreement over who could go home early and who 23 couldn't and it was always a case of frustration for 24 everybody, a case of agitation. 25 Q. In addition to being agitated, didn't you also 106 1 observe him to be upset? 2 A. In what respect? 3 Q. Well, sir, according to my notes, you said, 4 quote, it was strange to see him upset and agitated. Does 5 that sound accurate to you, sir? 6 A. He was normally a pretty easygoing guy. 7 Q. But during those years you noticed agitation 8 that was observable and visible to you; is that accurate, sir? 9 A. Yes, sir. He as well as others. 10 Q. Now, if I understand correctly, sir, you did 11 become aware that he didn't want to work the folder; am I 12 right about that? 13 A. That was the general understanding, the general 14 feeling that there was a lot of conflict between Mr. Wesbecker 15 and his foremen on their shifts, and one of the conflicts was 16 that he didn't want to work the folder any more than he had 17 to. 18 Q. Were you ever told, Mr. Campbell, when you were 19 an acting foreman, I think you said for three years, were you 20 ever told by the pressroom superintendent not to put him on 21 the folder? 22 A. No, sir. 23 Q. The boss of the foremen never told you as a 24 foreman that this bothered him, that it was a medical problem 25 or anything like that? 107 1 A. No, sir. I was never given instructions to 2 assign him in any particular way. 3 Q. Now, sir, if I understand correctly, you were 4 aware that there was a rule that firearms could not be brought 5 into Standard Gravure? 6 A. Yes, sir. 7 Q. Certainly you abided by that rule? 8 A. Yes, sir. 9 Q. But if I understand correctly, you know of at 10 least one employee who did not? 11 A. Yes, sir. 12 Q. And you apparently were aware that Charlie 13 Ganote brought a weapon into the Standard Gravure premises on 14 a regular basis? 15 A. I was not -- I never physically observed, that 16 was -- the rumor was that he carried a gun into -- on the 17 premises; yes, sir. 18 Q. And were you told what kind of a weapon it was, 19 sir? 20 A. I heard at one point it was a .357 magnum 21 pistol. 22 Q. Did you discuss Mr. Ganote and his gun with Mr. 23 Grady Throneberry, the head of security? 24 A. At one time -- one instance I remember, I was 25 walking from my locker room on the dock and Mr. Throneberry 108 1 stopped me and said -- I think he said, "Were you aware that 2 somebody carried a gun in the locker room," and I said, "Yes, 3 I was aware that someone -- the rumor was that someone carried 4 a gun." And he said, "Well, I had a request to look into 5 this," and he said, "Did you make such a request." And I 6 said, "No. I've heard it, but -- I've heard people talking 7 about it, but I didn't make any request to find out about it." 8 And he said, well, he talked to him and that they had a 9 discussion and I'm not sure of the outcome, but it was 10 something like either don't bring it on the premises or if you 11 bring it on the premises make sure it's in your locker or 12 unloaded and so forth, but I'm not even sure of the exact 13 conversation. But it was something to the effect that he had 14 examined and talked to Mr. Ganote. 15 Q. Didn't Mr. Throneberry tell you that -- didn't 16 you ask Mr. Throneberry, "Why would you let him bring it in," 17 and Mr. Throneberry's response was, "As long as he's not 18 harming anybody, we'll let it go"? 19 A. It seemed like after this examination and I 20 thought -- at the time if the safety director checked him, why 21 wouldn't he stop it, and I think -- you know, this is my 22 recollection -- is that he didn't or he just simply 23 reprimanded him for bringing it in, and I was wondering at the 24 time why didn't he just tell him not to bring it in. 25 Q. In other words, it was your understanding that 109 1 the head of security knew that this employee was bringing it 2 in -- 3 A. That's the feeling that I get. 4 Q. -- but let him go? 5 A. That I remember, yes; that's the feeling that I 6 get, that he had a discussion and that it was not -- either it 7 wasn't totally resolved or this is the way it stood, that he 8 could bring it in as long as it wasn't loaded and it stayed in 9 his locker. 10 Q. Mr. Campbell, were you ever given any 11 instructions by Mr. Throneberry as to what to do in the event 12 of an emergency that threatened the lives and the safety of 13 the individuals that worked there? 14 A. Not that I recall. 15 Q. Did you ever get any instructions as to how to 16 operate a P.A. system, a public address or announcement system 17 to warn people of a danger? 18 A. No, sir. 19 Q. Do you know whether or not there was such a 20 system in effect at all at the plant on September 14, 1989? 21 A. The only thing I remember is at one point we had 22 some sort of a warning system, but it was sort of like a horn 23 or something by the elevators, but I never heard it go off. I 24 don't know if it was ever put into effect or not. 25 Q. I take it then, sir, that you never heard anyone 110 1 make an announcement over loudspeakers announcing, for 2 example, that there's a tornado warning or that there's a bomb 3 threat or anything like that, sir? 4 A. I don't recall ever hearing anything over that 5 P.A. system. 6 Q. Or even if the P.A. system was operational? 7 A. Or if it was ever operational; yes, sir. 8 Q. All right, sir. Mr. Campbell, if I understand 9 correctly, Mr. Wesbecker, according to your understanding, had 10 apparently been hospitalized at Our Lady of Peace? 11 A. After the fact, when he was off on LTD, my 12 understanding was that he was at Our Lady of Peace. 13 Q. Did you understand that he was at Our Lady of 14 Peace while he was still working on active duty at Standard 15 Gravure? 16 A. I knew at some point in time that he had been to 17 see a doctor but, no, I wasn't aware, that I can remember, 18 that he ever went out there. 19 Q. Did you ever believe or perhaps even state that 20 his claims for wanting to get off of the folder were not 21 accurate? 22 A. I don't know that I ever stated it. I felt it 23 at one point, yes. 24 Q. That he was faking it? 25 A. I thought so; yes, sir. 111 1 Q. Now, sir, if I understand correctly, the work 2 assignments to work on the folder and the other positions on 3 the crew were actually written out and posted on the glass 4 door of the supervisor's office; am I correct? 5 A. Yes, sir. They had a form letter -- a form that 6 they used. 7 Q. Did you ever hear the phrase, sir, power of the 8 pencil? 9 A. Have I ever heard it in my life or heard it at 10 work? 11 Q. At work. 12 A. No. 13 Q. Never heard that at work? 14 A. Oh, I heard things similar to that: I've got 15 the pencil, I'm in charge or whatever, you know. That was 16 said by men in charge, by foremen, by superintendents, 17 whatever, in a joking manner. 18 Q. Said by foremen, supervisors, superintendents to 19 pressmen; right? 20 A. I never heard that in a particular situation. 21 That was a thing that they did jokingly. "Hey, I've got the 22 pencil, I'll put you where I want you or whatever." 23 Q. And those things were just jokes? 24 A. Yes, sir. In the context that I heard them, 25 they were jokes. 112 1 Q. Did that mean, sir, that the foreman or the 2 superintendent could assign somebody to any job they wanted 3 to? 4 A. Yes, sir. The union was responsible for 5 supplying the men and the company had the job of supervising 6 and assigning crews. So it was up to them to decide where 7 they wanted crews. We could intervene only in the sense that 8 we could ask that they not be placed there. 9 Q. But I take it, sir, that if the foreman or the 10 supervisor didn't want to agree, that there was no right to 11 appeal from that point; is that right, sir? 12 A. There's always a right to sit and talk about it, 13 but there is no written appeal in this case. 14 Q. Okay. Was that an unresolved issue between Mr. 15 Wesbecker and management at Standard Gravure? 16 A. It was an ongoing fight. It was an ongoing 17 discussion. I never heard the outcome until the other day in 18 court. 19 Q. Now, sir, if I understand correctly, you were in 20 the break room along with the other men whose names you've 21 mentioned this morning and I thought I understood you to say 22 that you heard one or two pops or loud noises; am I correct 23 about that? 24 A. It sounded like two to me, yes. 25 Q. And then I thought I heard you say, sir, that 113 1 there were several comments made. 2 A. Everybody in the room was talking. There were 3 several different conversations going on. And I heard a lot 4 of comments at that time. The only thing that stands out in 5 my mind is -- and I think it was Kenny Fentress. I'm fairly 6 sure it was Kenny Fentress said, "Oh, it looks like Charlie 7 came in to say good morning." 8 Q. And who did you understand Charlie to be? 9 A. As I said before, Charlie Ganote. 10 Q. Did I understand correctly, sir, that the 11 Plexiglas window that was there in the break room, I think 12 it's about half of the door or approximately half of the door, 13 sir? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. I thought I understood you to say that the glass 16 was scratched? 17 A. It's Plexiglas and it's easily scratched, and my 18 recollection is that it's quite scratched. 19 Q. And I take it then, sir, that the image that 20 could be seen through that door might not be as clear as 21 through an ordinary pane of glass; is that accurate, sir? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. That's all I have, Mr. Campbell. Thank you, 24 sir. 25 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Smith, anything further? 114 1 MR. SMITH: Nothing further, Your Honor. 2 JUDGE POTTER: Thank you very much, sir. You 3 may step down. You're excused. 4 Mr. Smith, you want to call your next witness? 5 MR. SMITH: Yes. We call Paul Gnadinger, 6 please. 7 8 PAUL GNADINGER, after first being duly sworn, 9 was examined and testified as follows: 10 11 JUDGE POTTER: Would you have a seat in the 12 witness box, keep your voice up loud, and state your name for 13 the jury, please. 14 MR. GNADINGER: Yes. My name is Paul Gnadinger. 15 16 EXAMINATION ___________ 17 18 BY_MR._SMITH: __ ___ ______ 19 Q. How old a man are you, Mr. Gnadinger? 20 A. I'm 54. 21 Q. Do you have a family? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Does your wife work outside the home? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. What's her name? 115 1 A. Deanna. 2 Q. And where does she work? 3 A. Works at -- she just started a new job -- at St. 4 Barnabas on Hikes Lane, school teacher. 5 Q. Do you work outside the home? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. What do you do, sir? 8 A. I'm in inside sales at Porter Paints. 9 Q. For who? 10 A. Porter Paint Company. 11 Q. And how long have you had that job? 12 A. Approximately ten weeks. 13 Q. And before that where did you work? 14 A. I managed a Colonel Quick Formal Wear store. 15 Q. And what kind of a store was that? 16 A. It rented tuxedos. 17 Q. Have you ever been a pressman, Mr. Gnadinger? 18 A. Yes. For over 33 years. 19 Q. When did you start as a pressman? 20 A. In October of '58. 21 Q. Where did you start working? 22 A. At Standard Gravure at that time. 23 Q. And how long did you continue working at 24 Standard Gravure as a pressman? 25 A. Until they went out of business in February of 116 1 '92. 2 Q. Did you start your career as a pressman at 3 Standard Gravure and work up the ladder? 4 A. Yes, I did. Started out as a fly-boy. 5 Q. Tell the jury what the different steps that it 6 is to become a journeyman pressman to get your card. 7 A. Well, you start out as a fly-boy. In the early 8 days, you would actually fly the books, the magazines. 9 Q. What does that mean, "fly the book"? 10 A. Take them off the conveyer and stack them on the 11 skids. Later on that was taken over by the bindery, but they 12 kept us on as fly-boys to do any work that needed to be done 13 in the pressroom; wash knives, help web up the press, web 14 breaks -- to help on web breaks. And after serving in that 15 capacity for a little over a year, I became an apprentice 16 pressman and we served five years in that capacity to 17 correspondence courses, and that time they would let us work 18 all the different jobs, supervised by journeymen pressmen, 19 reel men, ink men. Maybe by your fourth year they might even 20 let you up on the folder and work on -- the folder man 21 supervised, of course. After working five years and getting 22 my journeyman's card, I worked around on different presses for 23 approximately a year, year and a half, and then I was put on 24 the folder as the second man in charge. 25 Q. Did you work on the folder as the second man in 117 1 charge for the entire period of time that you were with 2 Standard Gravure? 3 A. Yes. After that, I was either second man in 4 charge or for about a 10-year period I was first man in 5 charge. 6 Q. And did each of those jobs require working the 7 folder every day? 8 A. Yes. First and second man, yes. 9 Q. And you worked the folder continuously for how 10 long, Mr. Gnadinger? 11 A. At least 26 years. 12 Q. Did you like that job? 13 A. Liked it very much. 14 Q. Was it a stressful job to you? 15 A. Not that stressful. 16 Q. Was it stressful to others? 17 A. Probably in the earlier years there wasn't any 18 stress at all. Towards the end when you had more press 19 speeds, you did have a little bit more stress; the amount of 20 magazines you were putting out were doubled and it was a 21 little bit more stressful. 22 Q. Did you ever see or hear of any guns on the 23 premises of Standard Gravure? 24 A. The only one I heard of was what Mike was 25 talking about that Charlie Ganote would carry a gun in. 118 1 Q. Was it your understanding that Charlie Ganote 2 was taking a gun into the pressroom and carrying a gun on his 3 person while he was operating presses? 4 A. No. 5 Q. What was your understanding as to the extent -- 6 A. My understanding was that Charlie carried a gun 7 in and left it in his locker. Now, back at the time that I 8 heard of this we were having court-ordered busing. We were 9 working from 1:00 in the morning to 9:00 in the morning. We 10 were walking approximately a block into work at 1:00 in the 11 morning. There was a lot of violence going on in Louisville 12 at the time because of busing and some people were jittery 13 about that. And I heard then that Charlie was carrying a gun 14 to work I think in a paper sack. 15 Q. Did you ever see that gun? 16 A. Once. 17 Q. Where was it when you saw it? 18 A. Well, he put it into his locker and when it was 19 put into his locker I wasn't too far away, and so he pulled it 20 out and said, "This is the gun," and then he put it back in 21 the sack and put it back in his locker, and that's the only 22 time I saw it. 23 Q. Did you ever see him pointing that gun at 24 anyone? 25 A. No. 119 1 Q. Did you ever see him threatening actions out 2 there with any guns of any type? 3 A. No, sir. 4 Q. Were you aware that there were maybe some 5 occasions where pressmen and paper handlers may have brought 6 weapons over to the premises for purposes of trade or raffle? 7 A. If they did, I was not aware of it. 8 Q. In September 1989, what would your seniority 9 have been, Paul? 10 A. I believe at that time I was No. 10 on the 11 seniority list, might even have been No. 8. 12 Q. Were you dissatisfied with your job in September 13 of 1989? 14 A. No, sir. 15 Q. Were you upset with management in September of 16 '89? 17 A. Oh, there were days when I thought we were 18 worked a little hard with the manning being what it was, but 19 other than that, nothing abnormally. 20 Q. Let me ask you this, Paul. Was there some kind 21 of servitude there at that plant? 22 A. Servitude? 23 Q. Yeah. I mean, were you slaves to that plant? 24 A. No. No, sir. 25 Q. Was there ability to leave that plant by 120 1 anybody? 2 A. You mean, to quit? 3 Q. Yes. 4 A. Oh, of course. 5 Q. Did he chain people to those presses and make 6 them work? 7 A. No, sir. 8 Q. Did you ever see anybody chained to the folder? 9 A. No, sir. No. 10 Q. Did you ever assign anybody to the folder job 11 that didn't want the folder job? 12 A. No. That was not my job. That was the 13 foreman's job. 14 Q. Did you ever see anybody assigned to the folder 15 job that didn't want to work the folder? 16 A. No, sir. I can honestly say no. Most people 17 looked upon it as a prestige job. 18 Q. Did you know Joseph Wesbecker? 19 A. Some, but very little. I didn't see him too 20 many times. I saw him a few times. 21 Q. Did you ever have any fights or arguments with 22 Joseph Wesbecker? 23 A. No, sir. 24 Q. Did you ever hear of any fights or arguments 25 involving Joseph Wesbecker? 121 1 A. No, sir; I didn't. 2 Q. Did you ever see Joseph Wesbecker assigned to 3 the folder? 4 A. No, I didn't. 5 Q. Did you ever see Mr. Wesbecker in a nervous or 6 agitated state? 7 A. No, sir. 8 Q. What shift did you normally work? 9 A. Well, until 1980, I generally worked the 10 one-to-nine shift, and then from 1980 till we went out of 11 business I worked day work, the nine-to-five shift. 12 Q. And what's your understanding with respect to 13 the shift that Mr. Wesbecker worked? 14 A. I'm sorry? 15 Q. What's your understanding as to the shift Mr. 16 Wesbecker worked? 17 A. I'm not honestly sure. I believe during the -- 18 prior to '80 or the mid '80s, he was probably working the 19 five-to-one shift. After that, I don't know if he was on day 20 work or not. I really don't know. 21 Q. Can you give the jury any idea of how often you 22 would come into contact with Mr. Wesbecker? 23 A. Not too often because we were either working 24 different shifts or in a different pressroom. We had two 25 different pressrooms. 122 1 Q. Would you see him once a week, once a month? 2 A. It's hard to place a handle on that. His locker 3 room was in Area Two, my locker room was in Area One. Prior 4 to '80, I was working in Area One and after '80 I was working 5 in Area Two, and I might see him walking through the tunnel 6 and pass and say hi. On a couple occasions we would work 7 together over on the five-to-one in Area Two, and I might talk 8 to him for a few minutes in the break room -- not the break 9 room, but the basement at that time, exchange a few 10 pleasantries, talk for a couple minutes about nothing in 11 particular, and we'd go back and do our job again. 12 Q. Did you see him working the folder? When you 13 worked with him, were you working on the folder together? 14 A. No. It would usually be an ink man. They would 15 have the regular folder men on each shift and by going on to 16 the different shift to work overtime, I would not be working 17 as a folder man at that time; I would be working as a 18 pressman. 19 Q. What shift were you working on September 14th, 20 1989? 21 A. Day work, nine to five. 22 Q. Were you in the break room when this shooting 23 occurred? 24 A. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. 25 Q. Were you actually physically shot? 123 1 A. No. 2 Q. Tell the jury what time you arrived at the break 3 room. 4 A. I walked in the break room approximately 8:35. 5 Q. Do you recall who was there? 6 A. The seven of us that were in there and I believe 7 Richard Barger was in there. Anyone else I can't remember. I 8 know that Bob Smith walked in after that and left before 9 Joseph Wesbecker came there, so at one time there may have 10 been as many as nine of us in there. 11 Q. But Richard Barger had left? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And it's your understanding that Richard Barger 14 was shot on the steps going into the basement area? 15 A. After this was over I found that out, yes. 16 Q. Did you hear any shots before? 17 A. People said they heard a shot. I don't really 18 recall hearing the popping noise or the shot. 19 Q. Where were you standing in the break room? 20 A. I was sitting in the chair with my back to the 21 locker room. 22 Q. How close were you to the locker room door? 23 A. It was right next to me to my right. 24 Q. Tell the jury what you observed there as Mr. 25 Wesbecker entered. 124 1 A. Well, I was sitting there and we were all just 2 making small talk. And why I looked up I don't know, but I 3 looked up at the door to the pressroom and I saw Joe 4 Wesbecker's face in the Plexiglas. There was a smaller 5 section of Plexiglas at that time. And when I looked up at 6 the door, then he looked at me and we made eye contact for a 7 second but he -- instead of looking into my eyes it was more 8 like he looked through me, past me. 9 Q. Behind you? 10 A. No. Just through me. It would be like he was 11 looking through me instead of at me. And then a second later 12 the door came open and he had his left shoulder pushing the 13 door open, and he had a rifle in his hand and it was on his 14 right hip and his left hand underneath the stock. I didn't at 15 the time know what type of rifle it was, but I could see the 16 barrel and the stock of the gun. 17 Q. Was that the first time you saw the rifle when 18 you -- 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. When the door opened? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Did Mr. Wesbecker take a step into the room? 23 A. No. He didn't step into the room at the time, 24 but when he pushed the door open he was even with the end of 25 the door, and the end of the barrel of the gun was pointing 125 1 straight at Kenny Fentress, who was seated right next to me to 2 my left. 3 Q. What happened? 4 A. He shot Kenny. Kenny started to say no and he 5 shot Kenny twice, two pops. And then the barrel -- door came 6 open a little bit more and the barrel started coming towards 7 me, so I jumped out of my chair and hit the floor to my right 8 and just spread out in front of the door to the locker room. 9 And I had my arms out in front of me and I had my face turned 10 away from him towards the back part of the break room. 11 Q. Did you see anything else? 12 A. No. But I heard the shots; it was just cadence 13 like Mike said, two to three shots: pop-pop-pop, pop-pop-pop. 14 It just went on and on. It seemed like it went on forever. 15 Q. Did you feel any ricochets or see any shots 16 flying around you? 17 A. No. Not at that -- no. 18 Q. Okay. What happened next? 19 A. Well, I lay there, like I say, waiting, and 20 waiting actually to get shot. I knew that I was laying not 21 five feet in front of him on the floor and he was shooting 22 everybody else. I was sure of that. He just kept shooting 23 the gun. 24 Q. But you weren't hit? 25 A. No. I was waiting for him to shoot me and 126 1 finish me off. And then after a while, I don't know how long, 2 a minute, two minutes, ever how long it took to, I presume, 3 empty the clip, the shooting stopped. And when it did I 4 plunged through the locker room door and scrambled, fell down 5 several times trying to get out of there and through the 6 locker room and head out to the street to try and get some 7 help. 8 Q. Did you hear any more shots while you were 9 moving out and already in the locker room? 10 A. No. 11 Q. As you lay there near the locker room door, was 12 there anybody laying there next to you? 13 A. No. Everyone would have been behind me or off 14 to my left and behind me. 15 Q. You mean behind you but facing toward the front 16 door? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Would you have been the closest man there to the 19 locker room door? 20 A. Yes, sir. 21 Q. You think that's the reason you escaped? 22 A. Yes, sir. 23 Q. How long did you lay there during that first 24 barrage of shooting? 25 A. Well, it seemed like an awfully long time. 127 1 Q. Long enough for him to shoot 20 or 30 rounds? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Were you laying there still? 4 A. Yes. I was pretending I was dead. 5 Q. Were you laying there when the water system pipe 6 was struck? 7 A. I couldn't tell because it would have been 8 behind me. If it was -- it could have been struck during that 9 first volley, but by the time I got out of the locker room it 10 had not saturated the floor yet. 11 Q. You didn't get wet? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Did you hear anybody say anything other than Mr. 14 Fentress possibly saying "Oh, no"? 15 A. No, sir; I didn't. 16 Q. Where did you run to? 17 A. Scrambled through the locker room and down the 18 hallway. At the time, out to the left door, that took me to 19 Armory Street and there's a guard's station there, and I 20 hollered in there that someone was inside with a rifle 21 shooting everyone, to call 911. And I ran out to the street, 22 and it was Armory Street. And about 150 feet away I saw a 23 policeman, so I ran down to him and explained to him what was 24 happening. And he said that he knew there was a man in there 25 shooting and that the SWAT team was on its way. 128 1 Q. You saw Officer Ball here this morning, didn't 2 you? 3 A. I don't know if it was Officer Ball or not. 4 Q. Was it the same -- looked like the same 5 policeman? 6 A. Similar, yes. 7 Q. All right. Go ahead. 8 A. And at that time Kenny Rich was the foreman, 9 walked up from the other end of the street towards Chestnut 10 and said that we were trying to get everybody down to near 11 WHAS studios and see who all we could account for. And I was 12 in shock, so I went on down towards WHAS. 13 Q. When you say you were in shock, what do you 14 mean, Paul? 15 A. I just -- my mind just wasn't functioning right. 16 I guess I was scared. 17 Q. Did you ever go back into the Standard Gravure 18 premises or that break room that day? 19 A. No, sir. 20 Q. Did you end up at the hospital? 21 A. Did I what? 22 Q. End up at the hospital. 23 A. No, sir. 24 Q. Did you have any physical problems? 25 A. I was having chest pains that afternoon, so I 129 1 did go to my family physician. 2 Q. I think that's all I have, Mr. Gnadinger. Thank 3 you, sir. 4 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Stopher? 5 6 EXAMINATION ___________ 7 8 BY_MR._STOPHER: __ ___ ________ 9 Q. Mr. Gnadinger, if I understand correctly, in the 10 years that you worked there at Standard Gravure, I think you 11 said you started exactly when? I failed to write it down. 12 It's been a long time. 13 A. At Standard Gravure in October of '58. 14 Q. Yes, sir. October of '58? 15 A. Yes, sir. 16 Q. And you continued to work there until the plant 17 closed? 18 A. Yes, sir. 19 Q. And it was Mr. Shea that closed the plant? 20 A. Yes, sir. 21 Q. And that was on February 4, 1992? 22 A. Yes, sir. 23 Q. During that time, sir, if I understand 24 correctly, you never had any occasion to spend any real time 25 in conversation with Joe Wesbecker; am I right about that? 130 1 A. That's correct. 2 Q. He didn't discuss his family with you? 3 A. No, sir. 4 Q. He didn't discuss his medical situation with 5 you? 6 A. No, sir. 7 Q. He did not discuss with you issues concerning 8 his work at Standard Gravure? 9 A. No. No, sir. 10 Q. He didn't discuss with you his ideas about 11 chemicals at work? 12 A. No, sir. 13 Q. Mr. Gnadinger, are you familiar with toluene and 14 xylo and xylene? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Are they used at Standard Gravure or were they, 17 sir, in the 1980s? 18 A. At some times; yes, sir. 19 Q. Those are highly flammable chemicals; are they 20 not, sir? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. They are chemicals that are used to mix with the 23 inks and to thin those inks; is that roughly a fair statement, 24 sir? 25 A. Yes. 131 1 Q. And barrels of toluene, xylene and xylo were 2 brought into the plant at various times to mix with the inks; 3 is that true, sir? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And those fumes would be in the air in the 6 pressroom, would they not, sir? 7 A. To a degree. We have a ventilation system that 8 would vent most of the fumes out of the pressroom because they 9 were also recovered by a solvent recovery system. 10 Q. When was that ventilation and recovery system 11 installed and added at Standard Gravure? 12 A. I'll take a stab at it; I'd say probably the mid 13 '60s or earlier. 14 Q. And did that collect all of the fumes? 15 A. Most of them, yes. 16 Q. Not all, but most; am I right? 17 A. I can say this: We collected enough of the 18 fumes to condensate back into a liquid that we actually sold 19 naphtha back to the ink companies. 20 Q. Did you ever see men become dizzy from those 21 fumes, sir? 22 A. One time. I don't remember what year it was 23 when they used toluene. They were experimenting trying to get 24 the press speeds up and toluene would make the inks dry 25 faster, so you would have faster drying ink and still keep the 132 1 quality of the print. They experimented with it for a while 2 and people did get dizzy there for a short period of time. 3 And I believe the fumes were carried up one day into the 4 cafeteria and the Binghams got hold of it and told them to get 5 rid of it. 6 Q. Did you ever see anybody pass out from those 7 fumes? 8 A. No, sir. 9 Q. Did you ever hear Joseph Wesbecker talk about 10 the fumes or complain about them? 11 A. No, sir. 12 Q. Now, sir, if I understand correctly, you did 13 hear some talk that Mr. Wesbecker was off on a mental 14 disability; is that accurate, sir? 15 A. Yes. I don't know how long he had already been 16 off but then I had heard, and I don't remember who said it, 17 that he was off on either a mental disability or had to spend 18 some time at Our Lady of Peace, one or the other. 19 Q. And had you also heard talk that he did not want 20 to work the folder? 21 A. I didn't hear that. 22 Q. Now, sir, in connection with Mr. Wesbecker, as I 23 understand it, you did have a conversation with a friend of 24 his named Jim Lucas; am I right about that? 25 A. Yes. 133 1 Q. And during the 1980s, while Mr. Wesbecker was 2 still working at Standard Gravure, you and Mr. Lucas were 3 working the five-to-one -- five P.M. to one A.M. shift; is 4 that right, sir? 5 A. Only after the explosion in '88, November of 6 '88. 7 Q. And you and Mr. Lucas were working together at 8 that time, sir? 9 A. We were not working together as far as shift. 10 Mr. Lucas had been burned in the explosion of '88, and working 11 over on the five-to-one shift one night in '89, I was assigned 12 to the secondary rewinder. And Jim Lucas had ordinarily been 13 running the secondary rewinder except he was off with his 14 burns. And they talked him into start coming in maybe an hour 15 or two occasionally to try to work his way back into the work 16 force, and he did come in one night while I was working on the 17 secondary rewinder and stayed for an hour, hour and a half. 18 Q. Let me get my timing squared away, sir, and I 19 apologize for not following you quite as quickly as you were 20 talking. This incident that you were talking about with Mr. 21 Lucas occurred in 1989; correct? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And Mr. Lucas had been off for some period of 24 time because of injuries that he sustained in the big fire and 25 explosion on November 10, 1988? 134 1 A. Yes, sir. 2 Q. And the company had talked him into coming back 3 in on a part-time basis to try to get back into the work flow; 4 is that right, sir? 5 A. Correct. 6 Q. And at that time Mr. Wesbecker was off work on 7 disability; am I correct? 8 A. That's my understanding, yes. 9 Q. Tell us what you recall that Mr. Lucas told you 10 about Mr. Wesbecker at that time. 11 A. Well, he didn't talk to me directly. He talked 12 to the man who was actually running the secondary rewinder, 13 and I can't even recall who that was, but he came in and he 14 talked to him for a few minutes, something about Joe Wesbecker 15 was -- he had -- how did he put it. Joe Wesbecker was having 16 some problems and he felt sorry for him or something to that 17 effect, but he didn't elaborate and I didn't ask any more 18 questions. I didn't ask any questions. 19 Q. Didn't Mr. Lucas say in your hearing, sir, that 20 Mr. Wesbecker was very upset with the company? 21 A. I don't know if he said he was upset with the 22 company. He might have said that he was upset -- that he was 23 upset. 24 Q. Let me refer you, if I may, please, sir, to your 25 deposition where you testified under oath on February 13, 135 1 1992. Do you remember that occasion, sir? 2 A. Yes, sir. 3 Q. You were represented by attorneys Mr. Gray, Mr. 4 Dobiesz, sir, on that occasion, sir? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Let me refer you, if I may, sir, to Page 51 of 7 that deposition, question at Line 14: "When he told you that 8 Wesbecker was having problems did he get any more specific as 9 to what those problems were? 10 "Answer: No. He just generally said that he 11 was very upset with the company and he was -- his words were 12 something to the effect that I was worried for him but that -- 13 it was very general and, like I say, he was off with burns and 14 he was coming in and working part time and he wasn't there 15 very long, either, and we were doing a job and we didn't have 16 a whole lot of time of chatter." 17 Do you recall giving that testimony under oath, 18 sir? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Did Mr. Lucas elaborate as to why Mr. Wesbecker 21 continued to be upset with the company after he was off on 22 disability? 23 A. No, he didn't. Like I say, I didn't ask any 24 questions and he did not elaborate. 25 Q. Did he elaborate -- did Mr. Lucas elaborate as 136 1 to why he was worried for him? 2 A. No, sir. 3 Q. Now, sir, if I understand correctly, on the 4 morning of September 14, 1989, you were in the break room and 5 I thought I understood you to say, sir, that you were sitting 6 down; am I recalling this correctly? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And as you were seated, you looked at the window 9 in the break room; am I correct, sir? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Mr. Gnadinger, how big was that window at that 12 time, sir? 13 A. As I remember it, it was approximately, say, 15 14 inches by 15 inches or a foot by -- 12 inches by 12 inches. 15 Q. I realize that this may not be the right shape, 16 sir, but would it be about the same size as this pad? 17 A. Probably a little bit bigger. 18 Q. Little bit bigger? 19 A. Yes, sir. 20 Q. And more square? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Now, if I understand you correctly, sir, you 23 looked at that window and you saw Mr. Wesbecker's face in that 24 window; am I correct? 25 A. Yes. 137 1 Q. You did not observe his face to be distorted, 2 did you, sir? 3 A. Well, since it was Plexiglas and scratched up 4 some, I couldn't tell for sure, but I mainly just saw his 5 eyes, looked at his eyes. 6 Q. Didn't you notice, sir, that he was 7 expressionless, blank and intense? 8 A. In his eyes I saw, yeah. Yes. 9 Q. That's the way he appeared to you, sir? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. He had a staring-type look, staring ahead at 12 you? 13 A. Yes. Yes. 14 Q. And if I understand correctly, sir, you just saw 15 him for perhaps even a fraction of a second; is that accurate, 16 sir? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. That's all I have. Thank you, sir. 19 MR. SMITH: We have nothing further, Your Honor. 20 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Thank you. Mr. Gnadinger; 21 you may step down. 22 Ladies and gentlemen, we're going to take the 23 lunch break at this time. As I mentioned to you-all before, 24 do not permit anybody to communicate with you on any topic 25 connected with this trial. Do not discuss it among yourselves 138 1 and do not form or express any opinions about it. We'll stand 2 in recess till 2:00. 3 (RECESS) 4 SHERIFF CECIL: The jury is entering. 5 All jurors present. Court is back in session. 6 JUDGE POTTER: Please be seated. 7 Mr. Smith, would you like to call your next 8 witness? 9 MR. SMITH: At this time, the plaintiffs will 10 call Gordon Scherer. 11 JUDGE POTTER: Would you raise your right hand, 12 please, sir. 13 14 GORDON SCHERER, after first being duly sworn, 15 was examined and testified as follows: 16 17 JUDGE POTTER: Would you have a seat right 18 there, keep your voice up good and loud and say your name good 19 and loud for the jury. 20 MR. SCHERER: My name is Gordon L. Scherer. 21 22 EXAMINATION ___________ 23 24 BY_MR._SMITH: __ ___ ______ 25 Q. How old a man are you, Mr. Scherer? 139 1 A. I'm 53 years old. 2 Q. Do you have a family? 3 A. Yes, sir. 4 Q. What's your wife's name? 5 A. Linda. 6 Q. And does she work outside the home? 7 A. Yes, sir. 8 Q. Where does she work? 9 A. She works at the Southwest Hospital. 10 Q. Do you have children? 11 A. Yes, sir. Three. 12 Q. Are they all grown and gone from home? 13 A. Yes, sir. 14 Q. Did you have a granddaughter yesterday? 15 A. Yes, sir; I did. 16 Q. Did you have anything to do with it? 17 A. Sir? 18 Q. Are you currently employed, Mr. Scherer? 19 A. No, sir. 20 Q. When were you last employed? 21 A. About '91, I think it was. 22 Q. And what were you doing in 1991? 23 A. I was back at work in '91, and I got where I 24 just couldn't work anymore. 25 Q. You were back at work at Standard Gravure? 140 1 A. Yes, sir. 2 Q. How long were you off of work at Standard 3 Gravure after the shootings? 4 A. Six weeks, and they forced me back. 5 Q. When did you start with Standard Gravure? 6 A. September 22nd, 1959. 7 Q. Did you work there continuously till September 8 14th, 1989? 9 A. Yes, sir. I started out in the bindery and 10 worked there for a year. 11 Q. Gosh, you were just a week and one day short of 12 30 years there when this happened, weren't you? 13 A. Uh-huh. 14 Q. Is that a yes? 15 A. Yes, sir. 16 Q. What was your first job -- did you work anywhere 17 before you worked at Standard Gravure? 18 A. I worked through high school as co-op at Ahrens 19 Trade High School. 20 Q. And did you go to work for Standard Gravure 21 straight out of high school? 22 A. High school. September after high school. 23 Q. Tell the jury what jobs you had there after you 24 got out of high school. 25 A. I was a bindery worker on the night side, and my 141 1 job was to catch books off the conveyer and stack them on 2 pallets for shipping. 3 Q. Is that like a fly-boy or is that different from 4 a fly-boy? 5 A. That's basically what the fly-boy used to do, 6 and then a year later, when I went to the pressroom, I started 7 out as a fly-boy then down there. They still had fly-boys at 8 the time. 9 Q. And how long were you a fly-boy in the 10 pressroom, Gordon? 11 A. Approximately five years. 12 Q. Okay. What, did you become an apprentice? 13 A. I became an apprentice; yes, sir. 14 Q. And how long were you an apprentice? 15 A. I was an apprentice for five years. 16 Q. And then do you remember what year, Gordon, that 17 you got your card as a journeyman pressman? 18 A. Oh, Lordy. That's a big one. I don't -- I 19 don't recall. 20 Q. Would it have been right around '69 or '70? 21 A. Right. 22 Q. What shift did you normally work -- 23 A. One-to-nine shift. One o'clock A.M. to nine 24 A.M. 25 Q. Why did you choose that shift, or did you have 142 1 any choice about it? 2 A. Well, I chose that shift mostly for my family 3 because I didn't have enough seniority to hold a day-work job. 4 So my next preference was the one-to-nine in the morning 5 because I could come home and sleep in the mornings and be up 6 when the children came home from school. 7 Q. And is that generally the shift that you worked 8 throughout your tenure as a pressman at Standard Gravure? 9 A. Up to about the last five years maybe. 10 Q. And then how did your job change the last five 11 years? What shift? Did you take another shift? 12 A. I went on day work because my children were all 13 grown and the boy was getting ready to go away to college, and 14 I thought that it would be best that Linda and I have a life 15 together. 16 Q. So that put you in nine to five? 17 A. Right. 18 Q. Did you ever work with Joseph Wesbecker? 19 A. Yes, sir. 20 Q. What times did you work with Joseph Wesbecker? 21 Were you ever on the same shift with him for any period of 22 time? 23 A. My last couple -- two, three years on day work 24 we worked together every day. 25 Q. Mr. Wesbecker was off of work from August of 143 1 1988 until September of 1989. Does that comport with your 2 recollection? 3 A. Yeah. It's about right. Yeah. 4 Q. Was it your testimony that that two or three 5 years before August of '88, you and Mr. Wesbecker worked on 6 the same shift? 7 A. Yes, sir. Same press. 8 Q. On the same press even? 9 A. Yes, sir. 10 Q. Were you a man in charge, second man in charge, 11 reel man or ink man? 12 A. I was the man in charge -- second man in charge, 13 I'm sorry. 14 Q. Who was the man in charge of that press? 15 A. Bill Ganote. 16 Q. And generally would that mean that you and Mr. 17 Ganote would operate the folder? 18 A. Yes, sir. 19 Q. And who else did you have? You had Mr. 20 Wesbecker working on that press? 21 A. Yes, sir. He ran the reel for me. 22 Q. And who else would have been working on that 23 press? 24 A. The fourth man was generally a floater of some 25 sort that was moved around the room. We had a -- we had our 144 1 fourth man as a floater. Most of the time he would be from 2 another press or -- I didn't have a regular fourth man. 3 Q. Being either the man in charge or the second man 4 in charge, would that mean that you would have a lot of 5 contact with Mr. Wesbecker when he was working as the reel 6 man? 7 A. Yes, sir. 8 Q. Would he physically be located on the same floor 9 as you? 10 A. No, sir. He was below me. 11 Q. And what would be the occasions that you would 12 come into contact as the second man in charge with the reel 13 man, who happened to be Mr. Wesbecker? 14 A. I always helped Joe in the mornings. The first 15 thing I did in the mornings, I always took the first -- first 16 half hour off the press and go down and help Joe open his 17 paper in the morning, and we either bought each other coffee, 18 one or the other, it depended on who got to the coffee pot 19 first. So I always walked by and told Joe I put him in the 20 pot and sometimes he did likewise. 21 Q. Is "putting in the pot" meaning that you already 22 contributed some money to their coffee? 23 A. Yes, sir. 24 Q. What, did you-all have a kitty there? 25 A. Yes. It helped buy the coffee and supplies; 145 1 yes, sir. 2 Q. Why were you helping Joe with his duties as the 3 reel man? 4 A. Well, I've worked that position, and lots of 5 times you have lots of waste that you would have to take off 6 of a roll. It was heavy work. It was just a habit of mine 7 that I seemed like I always helped anybody on my crew anytime 8 I had a chance. 9 Q. Did you help Joe any more or any less than any 10 other people? 11 A. It just got to be a habit that I would go down. 12 That was the first thing I did in the morning. 13 Q. Over that last two or three years that you-all 14 were working closely together, would you have conversations 15 about the job? 16 A. Not really, you know, we just went about our 17 jobs. We was always shorthanded so I never had any trouble -- 18 if the press went down, I never had to call downstairs on the 19 phone to help -- him come up and help us. He -- he was I'd 20 say a good pressman, you know; he stayed on the job and I 21 didn't ever have to go look for him. 22 Q. Had you known Joe Wesbecker before the two of 23 you started working together on the same press? 24 A. I knew of him. 25 Q. What did you know of him before you-all started 146 1 working together on the press? 2 A. He mostly worked in Area Two, I think, then he 3 worked on the five-to-one shift and I didn't have much to do 4 with him. 5 Q. Do you remember specifically anything that 6 you-all had in contact or any discussion that you had before 7 you started working the same press? 8 A. No. I can't remember a thing. 9 Q. Did you like Joe Wesbecker? 10 A. I liked Joe. 11 Q. Did he like you, as far as you know? 12 A. Yeah. He must have. We got along pretty good 13 together, you know, we didn't have any problems. I never had 14 a cross word with the man. 15 Q. Did you ever have any kind of arguments or 16 disputes about anything? 17 A. No. No. I never had any. If we had a problem 18 down there, I'd go down and ask him what was wrong, you know. 19 And if we had an electrical problem or a mechanical problem 20 down there, I would see to it that it got fixed, but other 21 than discussing the job, I had nothing to do with him. 22 Q. Were there ever occasions where you would need 23 his help in performing your duties where he would come and 24 help you? 25 A. Yeah. Yeah. 147 1 Q. Tell the jury about that. 2 A. Well, if a press went down, we would have a web 3 break. And sometime we'd have wrap-ups and paper and stuff, 4 and that's hard on rollers, and all the rollers in the press 5 would have to be cleaned and washed and web replaced and back 6 into operation, so he helped me along those lines. 7 Q. Did you ever have any problem getting Mr. 8 Wesbecker to help you when you needed help? 9 A. He always showed up and asked me if there was 10 anything he could do to help. 11 Q. Did you know that Mr. Wesbecker was having 12 mental problems, Gordon? 13 A. I knew Joe had some sort of problem; I wasn't 14 for sure what it was but he had -- I knew he had a little beef 15 with the company, and I think at one time he had some sort 16 of -- I don't know whether it was a lawsuit or a grievance or 17 what it was. I never discussed it with him. 18 Q. Were you here when earlier this week we were 19 talking with Ms. Warman about the EEOC complaint he filed 20 about the stress he had in connection with working the folder? 21 A. Yes, sir. That's what it was about. 22 Q. Is that what you're talking about? 23 A. Yes, sir. That's what it pertains to. That was 24 all hearsay after -- you know, after it happened. 25 Q. Did you and he talk about the problems he was 148 1 having in working the folder? 2 A. No, because he was on opposite shift that I was. 3 He was in there the shift before I came in. 4 Q. I thought with the last two or three years 5 you -- 6 A. Oh, the last two or three years, yeah. No, we 7 never discussed that. 8 Q. The last two or three years you and he didn't 9 discuss the fact that he was nervous about working the folder? 10 A. When he went to day work and I was on day work, 11 Joe was never put back on the folder. 12 Q. All right. Were you here when Ms. Warman 13 testified that she had investigated the issue of whether or 14 not Mr. Wesbecker had been on the folder and that the last 15 time she heard that or in -- the last time she could determine 16 that Mr. Wesbecker was on the folder was in September of 1986? 17 MR. STOPHER: Objection, Your Honor. 18 JUDGE POTTER: Approach the bench. 19 (BENCH DISCUSSION) 20 MR. SMITH: I'm just trying to help him with his 21 dates. I'm trying to develop as far as he knew Mr. Wesbecker 22 never worked on the folder at that time. 23 JUDGE POTTER: All right. 24 (BENCH DISCUSSION CONCLUDED) 25 Q. Do you know of any occasions when Mr. Wesbecker 149 1 was on the folder after September 1986, which would have been 2 three years before this incident occurred? 3 A. I can't remember him being on the folder. 4 Q. As the second man in charge, did you ever assign 5 Joe Wesbecker to the folder? 6 A. No, sir. 7 Q. Do you recall Bill Ganote ever assigning Joe 8 Wesbecker to the folder? 9 A. No. None of us would have had any reason to 10 assign him to the folder because we were marked up on the 11 press that way. The foreman makes out the list, and he 12 schedules the people he wants in charge and on the reels. 13 Q. Were the three of you, Mr. Ganote, yourself and 14 Mr. Wesbecker, sort of working as a team on that particular 15 press during that particular shift? 16 A. Yes, sir. 17 Q. And was it sort of understood or did the foreman 18 always assign Mr. Wesbecker to the reel room? 19 A. He was always assigned to the reel room as far 20 as I'm aware of; yes, sir. 21 Q. Did Mr. Wesbecker ever tell you or complain to 22 you that he was afraid that someone was going to assign him to 23 the folder? 24 A. Not in the last three years. 25 Q. But he had before? 150 1 A. I think so. 2 Q. Were you aware, Gordon, that Mr. Wesbecker had 3 been out before 1988 on sick leave and was hospitalized at Our 4 Lady of Peace Hospital? 5 A. I didn't know where he was, but I knew he was 6 off sick. As far as I was concerned, he was just off sick as 7 far as I knew. I didn't inquire really where he was or that 8 nature. It just seems like it was -- wasn't discussed. 9 Q. After he was put on sick leave and disability 10 leave beginning in August of 1988, a year before this shooting 11 occurred, were you aware that he was out by virtue of a mental 12 illness? 13 A. Only hearsay. 14 Q. But that was your general impression, that Joe 15 was out because of -- 16 A. Joe was having problems, yes. 17 Q. And what was your understanding of the problems 18 that he was having? 19 A. I really didn't know the extent of his problems. 20 I thought they started with his first marriage, but I'm not 21 for sure. 22 Q. Do you know whether or not he was still having 23 any problems in connection with working or the threat of 24 working the folder? 25 A. No. 151 1 Q. Before September 14th, 1989, did you ever see 2 Joseph Wesbecker threaten anybody? 3 A. No, sir. 4 Q. Before September 14th, 1989, did you ever see 5 Joseph Wesbecker lose his temper? 6 A. I don't think I ever saw the man lose his 7 temper. 8 Q. Did you ever see him throw a tool? 9 A. No, sir. 10 Q. Did you ever see him kick a piece of machinery? 11 A. No, sir. 12 Q. When you were working on the same shift those 13 last two or three years -- 14 A. Yes, sir. 15 Q. -- how frequently a day would you speak to him? 16 A. It depended on the shape Joe was in. You could 17 tell when Joe wasn't feeling good, he stayed to hisself. 18 Q. Tell the jury about those occasions where he 19 would stay to himself. 20 A. Well, you would go down and I'd go ahead and 21 open his paper, and he would be sitting over there either 22 reading a book or looking his reel over, his equipment over, 23 or he would just sort of stay quiet and back between a box and 24 a post and sat there. 25 Q. Sort of isolated? 152 1 A. Yes, sir. He was separated from everybody. 2 Q. Did he act like he was mad at somebody? 3 A. He just acted strange. He was just a different 4 person. 5 Q. Anything else you could tell us about his 6 demeanor? You mentioned he was isolated, he kind of stayed to 7 himself? 8 A. Other than those days that he acted like that, 9 it kept getting worse, you know. Instead of one or two days a 10 week, you know, he got to where he was pretty much like that 11 all the time. And he got real sloppy and I think he put on 12 quite a bit of weight, and he -- he used to be pretty 13 particular about hisself and his clothes. He didn't care 14 about what he looked like or... He was just sort of ragged. 15 Q. Are you aware or were you aware at the time, Mr. 16 Scherer, that those are classic typical signs of major 17 depressive disorder? 18 A. Not until I've suffered depression myself. 19 Q. Did you feel sort of the same way Joseph 20 Wesbecker did those last few years? 21 A. Sometimes. Sometimes. 22 Q. During that period of time that Mr. Wesbecker 23 was becoming more isolated and withdrawn and his appearance 24 became shoddy, did people start making fun of him there at 25 Standard Gravure? 153 1 A. I never heard of anybody making fun of him. 2 Q. Did you make fun of him? 3 A. No, sir. 4 Q. Did you continue to buy him coffee on occasion? 5 A. I always did. 6 Q. Did he continue to buy you coffee? 7 A. Yes, sir. 8 Q. Did you ever see any guns on the premises of 9 Standard Gravure, Gordon? 10 A. Yes, I did. 11 Q. On how many occasions? 12 A. Lots of occasions. 13 Q. Tell the jury about that. 14 A. Well, the same individual that was mentioned 15 awhile ago. And I'm not for sure he's the only one that 16 carried a gun regularly, but lots of people carried guns 17 because of night work, so many people were getting mugged and 18 people were really scared. 19 Q. Are you talking about that first person we were 20 talking about this morning as being Charles Ganote? 21 A. Yes, sir. 22 Q. And what relation was he to Bill Ganote, who was 23 your man in charge? 24 A. I didn't understand you. 25 Q. Was Charles Ganote related to Bill Ganote? 154 1 A. Yes, sir. 2 Q. Bill Ganote was killed there in that break room 3 with you, wasn't he? 4 A. Right beside me; yes, sir. And they was 5 brothers. 6 Q. And he and Charles was brothers? 7 A. Right. 8 Q. Did Bill Ganote ever carry a gun to work that 9 you saw? 10 A. Not that I was ever aware of. 11 Q. Did Charles Ganote carry the gun into the 12 pressroom or did he leave that gun in his locker? 13 A. I don't know. 14 Q. Did you ever see that gun outside of the locker 15 room area? 16 A. No. 17 Q. Did you ever see any guns on the pressroom 18 floor? 19 A. I think I might have saw one one time in a 20 raffle. 21 Q. In a raffle? 22 A. Yes, sir. 23 Q. Tell the jury about what that was. 24 A. I don't even know who raffled the gun. Anyway, 25 they was in there selling tickets a dollar a chance and I 155 1 forget whether it was -- I don't know how many chances they 2 even was, but I just threw my dollar bill in just like 3 everybody else, and I think I wound up winning the gun. 4 Q. Was that gun loaded? 5 A. I wasn't aware of it if it was. I didn't check 6 it because I know nothing about guns. I sold it before I went 7 home. 8 Q. Okay. Any other occasions where there would be 9 guns on the premises at Standard Gravure? 10 A. Only of hearsay. 11 Q. But none that you saw? 12 A. No, sir. I never saw them. 13 Q. What did you hear then? Let's get to that. Did 14 you hear that there was a bunch of guns there on the premises 15 or on the pressroom floor? 16 A. Yeah. I heard that certain people carried guns 17 in their satchels, but I never, ever saw them out of their 18 satchels, like a gym bag. A lot of guys would carry gym bags 19 and carry work clothes and a change of clothes, and we 20 showered there. And other than that, they kept them out of 21 sight. Let's put it that way. 22 Q. Well, that's what I'm talking about. Were those 23 guns, guns that pressmen had brought onto the premises for 24 protection to and from Standard Gravure? 25 A. Yes, sir. 156 1 Q. As opposed to protection or using those guns 2 while they were at work? 3 A. It was for protection at night from the parking 4 lots to the -- to the building, because so many of the guys 5 were getting mugged down there that, I, myself was almost 6 caught one night in the parking lot, and I was -- I can 7 understand probably some of them carrying guns. 8 Q. Did you ever carry a gun with you for 9 protection? 10 A. No, sir. No, sir. 11 Q. Did you ever fear any threat of violence or 12 trouble there inside the Standard Gravure premises because of 13 the guns? 14 A. Not really. 15 Q. What time did you come to work on the morning of 16 September 14th? 17 A. The morning of September 14th, I arrived 18 approximately at 8:15. 19 Q. Can you tell the jury what you did? 20 A. I went to the locker room, as usual, and changed 21 my clothes, chatted with a few guys in the locker room, went 22 back out of the locker room and through the pressroom doors 23 and over to the office to see where I was working that day and 24 who was part of my crew. And I glanced in the office door and 25 saw Don Cox and Ken Rich was in his blue work uniform already, 157 1 which was sort of unusual, apparently he must have gotten 2 there early, and they might have had some sort of ink test or 3 something going on and he was there early. He was the 4 day-work foreman. 5 Q. Did you say ink test? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. All right. Go ahead. 8 A. But that was approximately about 8:25, I walked 9 into the door next to the office and sat down beside Billy. 10 And Billy and I used to sit there and have coffee and 11 doughnuts and chat for a while in the morning. And he was 12 working on an old car of his and I kind of like old cars, too, 13 and we would talk about how well he was getting along on his 14 in the mornings and just have, you know, just little chats of 15 interest. 16 Q. Were you sitting down? 17 A. Yes, sir. 18 Q. And was Bill Ganote sitting down? 19 A. Yes, sir. We were sitting arm to arm in chairs. 20 Q. Who else was present in the break room? 21 A. Paul Gnadinger, Kenny Fentress, Mike Campbell, 22 Billy Ganote, myself, Herman Hoffmann and Chuck Gorman. I 23 think that's seven, isn't it? 24 Q. I think so. 25 A. There were seven of us left. It was unusually 158 1 light in the break room that morning. Ordinarily, there might 2 have been thirty people in there. But for some reason or 3 another, the traffic jams and trains and stuff that people 4 were running late, I guess. 5 Q. Do you remember anything else that was said 6 there, Gordon, before Joseph Wesbecker appeared at the door? 7 You say you and Bill Ganote were talking about work he had 8 been doing on an old car? 9 A. Uh-huh. As far as anything that was said 10 amongst the other people, I don't really remember. I was only 11 involved in one conversation at the time. So that's all I 12 really -- I don't remember what the other talk was about 13 around the room. 14 Q. Did you hear shots, the two shots that have been 15 mentioned here? 16 A. I certainly did. 17 Q. Did you recognize them as shots? 18 A. Well, I didn't know whether they was shots. 19 They were unfamiliar noises to me. It was like maybe somebody 20 took a lead hammer and smacked one of those ovens out there is 21 what it sounded like to me. And, ordinarily, an unusual noise 22 I'll jump and go look and see what happened. I don't know why 23 I didn't do that that morning. I started to get up. Dickie 24 Barger just had left and after Dickie had left, these noises 25 occurred, and the more I sat there the more I worried about 159 1 maybe I better go out and check on them; someone might have 2 got hurt. I don't know why I didn't do that. It's something 3 unusual for me not to have checked that out. 4 Q. Were you friends with Dickie Barger? 5 A. Yes, sir. At work. 6 Q. All right. Did you hear any comments about 7 these noises, Gordon? 8 A. Yes, sir. There was comments made about who's 9 the idiot throwing firecrackers. Well, that didn't sound like 10 any firecracker to me. And then somebody said, "Ha, ha, 11 Charlie might be -- Charlie might come in," I don't know, of 12 that sort. It was just about the two things I only heard. 13 Q. Then what happened? 14 A. Well, I was sitting there and I had a cup of 15 coffee sitting over there on a table like and a friend of mine 16 had a bucket of stew sitting next to it. 17 Q. Bucket of stew? 18 A. Yeah. 19 Q. Who was that, Bill Hoffmann's pot roast? 20 A. Yeah. Bill Hoffmann's pot roast; right. 21 Q. Some people's pot roast are other people's stew, 22 I guess? 23 A. Well, I wore a lot of it. 24 Q. All right. 25 A. So it wasn't but a very short time after those 160 1 two noises that I saw Wesbecker in the door. 2 Q. What did you do? 3 A. I stood up, reached out and was going to step 4 over to greet him when he came in. It was nothing unusual for 5 somebody to be off sick or retirees to come in for a visit, 6 and it had been awhile since I'd seen Joe and I was sort of 7 tickled to see him; I thought I was. 8 Q. You didn't see the gun, obviously? 9 A. I never saw a gun. Never saw a gun until the 10 door opened up about -- oh, about that wide. 11 Q. Did you actually stand to your feet or did you 12 just raise up, Gordon? 13 A. I was standing on my feet, had already extended 14 an arm across Bill Ganote thinking when he come in I wanted to 15 be sure to shake hands with him. 16 Q. Was he close enough to you where you could have 17 almost shaken hands with him? 18 A. No, not really. He was about six or seven feet 19 away. 20 Q. But you already had your hand up? 21 A. Yeah. I got up like this. 22 Q. Were you glad to see Joseph Wesbecker that 23 morning? 24 A. Yeah. I was sort of curious about Joe, you 25 know, how he was getting along and stuff of this sort. I sort 161 1 of liked Joe. 2 Q. Then what happened? 3 A. Well, that's when I saw the barrel of the gun 4 come through the door, and I didn't know what it was. And he 5 shot Kenny Fentress just point-blank. He just shot him twice. 6 Kenny's arms went up and he flew back against the wall, and I 7 thought, "This has got to be a joke." And I think he pointed 8 it at Paul Gnadinger next, then Paul, I think, went to the 9 floor. 10 Q. Were you still standing at this time? 11 A. Yes. I dropped my arm. And it moved along 12 pretty fast. Nobody really screamed or hollered, but Kenny -- 13 Kenny said either "Joe, Joe," or "Oh, Joe" or "No, Joe." I 14 can't -- I couldn't -- I still don't remember what he said. 15 He was the only one that said anything. And, of course, he 16 flew back against the wall and, I mean, he just looked like to 17 me he just splattered. 18 And then Joe pushed the door open and planted 19 his left foot against the door and he started around the room. 20 And when I saw him shoot Mike and Mike just jumped, and he 21 started pointing it to Billy Ganote and I dove to the floor. 22 And I was -- as I dove to the floor, I got hit in the right 23 leg with shrapnel. I didn't take a direct shot. I laid there 24 on the floor on my right side, so apparently I had gotten hit 25 before I went down. And Herman Hoffmann was sitting into my 162 1 left side, right up behind me, and he got shot in the right 2 chest, apparently I guess on the way down. I don't know. We 3 was all on the floor and Chuck Gorman had hit the floor, I 4 think, before he had ever gotten shot. But it just kept up 5 and kept up. And when he shot Billy, it felt like it went 6 through me. 7 And that's when it hit that cooling line pipe 8 and blew the water pipe apart and water started pouring in on 9 us, and we laid there in water probably I'd say it got to be 10 about an inch deep, and it was just like a blood bath, it just 11 kept... And I was -- I had no feeling. I just -- just 12 lost -- I had no feeling from my head down. I couldn't tell 13 whether I could move or nothing. I didn't know whether the 14 back was out of me or -- I knew I was soaking wet and cold, 15 and I just played dead from then on. And after the shooting 16 stopped the first time, he left the room and the door closed, 17 and I wouldn't move. And I think Chuck Gorman got out the 18 door at that time. I remember seeing him go. And I was all 19 the way across the room. There wasn't any way for me to get 20 through the chairs and stuff of that sort. I was just too 21 afraid to move. 22 Q. Were you still playing dead? 23 A. Yes, sir. I still played dead. I tried not to 24 show any signs of breathing or anything. Of course, I was 25 trying to shake from the cold water. And when he came back in 163 1 the second time and started shooting I thought he was walking 2 in the room, and I just -- I just couldn't believe I was going 3 to die like this, that I was going to lay there and I knew he 4 was going to blow our heads off is what I really thought he 5 was going to do. Instead, he just kept shooting us in the 6 floor. And we -- I wouldn't even get up after the second 7 round, I was so scared that I couldn't believe that I could 8 open my eyes again. 9 So I was -- I already started shivering by then 10 I was so cold and opened my eyes up and it just looked like a 11 river of blood. And we -- Herman Hoffmann kept asking around 12 about is anybody still alive, and they called -- he called out 13 names, and I think maybe I told Herman to just be quiet, that 14 I was -- I was so scared that, you know, he would come back 15 again. So after I looked down and I could see I could move my 16 fingers, I started moving my arms, and when I felt my feet, I 17 wiggled them around and I looked at Herman and I told Herman, 18 I said, "Listen, if I get on my hands and knees, I don't know 19 how bad I'm hurt," but I said that, "if I get out of here, 20 I'll be back." 21 Q. You mean you'd come back for Herman? 22 A. Yeah. I told him I would bring help with me 23 when I come back. So I made it to the locker room door and 24 froze. I got inside the locker room and each locker bank that 25 I came by, I figured Joe was coming around to the other side 164 1 because that door was not there into the locker room, and I 2 figured that's where he would be going next, to the locker 3 room to shoot the people in the locker room. 4 Q. Did you not know he had shot himself? 5 A. No. If I would have known that he had shot 6 hisself, there was a part of me that I still miss that I would 7 have liked to stomp the rest of his head in. But I didn't 8 know that he had killed hisself outside the room. 9 So the trip through the locker room was a very 10 terrible experience, and that's one of the problems I have 11 today of somebody walking around a corner on me or something 12 of that sort or come up behind me. I'm very skittish. 13 There's times that I won't go out anymore, and it just never 14 seems to go away. I have to sleep with lights on in the house 15 at night and that now -- and I've got more lights up on the 16 outside of my house now for security, anything to make me feel 17 better. I try my best to get around the best I can. 18 Q. How -- how did you get out? You went through 19 the locker room? Were you walking or crawling? 20 A. Went through the locker room. I was walking 21 very, very slowly and peeping around each locker bank, and 22 when I got to the door, I was afraid to open the door because 23 I would have to look back around the corner to my right and I 24 had to go to the left. And the big double doors to the 25 pressroom are right there, and I figure Joe was probably 165 1 standing either in the hallway or waiting for somebody to come 2 out of the locker room. But it just took a whole lot for me 3 to put my hand on that door and peep around the corner. And 4 when I peeped around the corner and I says, well, I just was 5 going to run till I couldn't run anymore. 6 So I got outside to the guard shack and they -- 7 they tried to make me sit down, and they said I was hurt. And 8 I said they didn't know what hurt was. 9 Q. What did you mean by that? 10 A. I meant that people in there was in such bad 11 shape that, you know, I mean, I was on my feet. I didn't know 12 what was wrong with me, but I was on my feet. They were down 13 and bleeding terribly, you know, they wasn't going to live 14 much longer, I don't think. But just watching them being shot 15 as bad as they got shot, I just couldn't imagine. And Bill 16 Ganote laid right up against the side of me and he never -- he 17 just never moved. I don't think he ever knew what hit him. 18 He just -- I think he got shot twice in the front, twice in 19 the back and once in the head. I'm not for sure. But 20 everybody in there got shot four and five times, and how I 21 come out with just shrapnel wounds I really don't know. 22 Q. How much time elapsed between the time Joe 23 Wesbecker came in and started shooting and the time you 24 physically got out of the building, Gordon? 25 A. Just seemed like forever. I don't know. It was 166 1 probably, I don't know, a matter of minutes, maybe, or maybe 2 even seconds. I don't know. 3 Q. When Joe Wesbecker walked in or came through the 4 door, you got up to greet him; is that right? 5 A. Yes, sir. 6 Q. Did you get a look at his face or his eyes or 7 anything of that nature? 8 A. Yeah. I looked Joe right in the face and he 9 just looked -- his face looked so puffed up and he -- well, he 10 just had a cold stare about him. 11 Q. But it didn't alarm you at first? 12 A. Not at first, at the time, not till he started 13 shooting. 14 Q. That's all I've got, Gordon. Thank you. 15 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Stopher? 16 17 EXAMINATION ___________ 18 19 BY_MR._STOPHER: __ ___ ________ 20 Q. Mr. Scherer, as I understand it, sir, you 21 started to work at Standard Gravure in about 1960; am I right 22 about that, sir? 23 A. 1959. 24 Q. '59, sir. I was off by one year. And as I 25 understand it, in the mid 1960s you became a journeyman 167 1 pressman; am I right? 2 A. No, I did not become a journeyman pressman. 3 Q. When did you become a journeyman pressman? 4 A. Approximately ten years later. 5 Q. Ten years later, so it would be about 1969? 6 A. Late '69, yeah. 7 Q. All right, sir. And was that your job capacity 8 there the whole time you worked there, sir? 9 A. Yes, sir. 10 Q. Okay. As I understand it, sir, you worked with 11 Joe Wesbecker the last two to three years that he worked there 12 on Press Number Three? 13 A. That's right. 14 Q. Press Number Three, sir, without spending a lot 15 of time on this, I believe is in Area One; am I right about 16 that? 17 A. That's correct. 18 Q. The fire and explosion was over in Area Two? 19 A. Area Two. 20 Q. And if I believe I understand correctly, this is 21 Press Number One? 22 A. That's right. 23 Q. This is Press Number Two? 24 A. That's right. 25 Q. And this is Press Number Three? 168 1 A. Correct. 2 Q. And Press Number Three, just like all three of 3 them, runs quite some distance? 4 A. Right. About 150 feet in length. 5 Q. All right. 6 A. Press Three was. I think Press Two was quite a 7 bit longer. 8 Q. Press Two was a good bit longer, it had, what, 9 16, 17 units, something like that? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Okay. If I understand correctly, sir, that last 12 two or three years is the period of time before Mr. Wesbecker 13 went off on disability; am I right about that, sir? 14 A. Would you mind repeating the question? 15 Q. Yes, sir. I apologize. I was walking away from 16 you and talking over my shoulder. 17 A. Well, I'm hard of hearing anyway. 18 Q. And I apologize for talking in that fashion, 19 sir. Now that I'm back at my station can you hear me all 20 right, sir? 21 A. Yes, sir. 22 Q. All right. That last two or three years that 23 you worked with him, sir, was that before he went away on 24 disability? 25 A. Yes, sir. 169 1 Q. And was that on the five-to-one shift that you 2 worked with him, sir? 3 A. No, sir. It was the nine-to-five shift. 4 Q. Nine-to-five shift? 5 A. Yes, sir. 6 Q. And on that shift, sir, what job would you 7 normally work? 8 A. The press, the folder. 9 Q. Okay. You would be the man in charge? 10 A. Second man in charge. 11 Q. Second man in charge? And who would be the 12 first man in charge? 13 A. Bill Ganote. 14 Q. And who would be the ink man? 15 A. It varied. Most of the time it was Willy 16 Stover, maybe, and Harry Sykes. 17 Q. All right. And who would be the reel man, sir? 18 A. It was Joe Wesbecker. 19 Q. Okay. Now, as the reel man, if I understand 20 correctly, you don't work primarily on the pressroom floor? 21 A. That's right. It's in the basement. 22 Q. You go down those yellow steps and the reel man 23 works down in the basement? 24 A. Right. 25 Q. All right, sir. Now, sir, as I understand it, 170 1 during that last two or three years, Mr. Wesbecker wanted to 2 be off of the folder job; is that true, sir? 3 A. He was off the folder job the last two or three 4 years. I think that's why he went on day work. 5 Q. And did you understand that he didn't want to 6 work that job because it was too much pressure? 7 A. I knew that. 8 Q. Did he tell you that, sir? 9 A. I had heard rumors from other pressmen on other 10 shifts as to why they keep putting him back on the folder. 11 Q. You heard it from other pressmen on other shifts 12 that that was the reason that they didn't put him back on the 13 folder? 14 A. He didn't want to work the folder. 15 Q. Did you observe him, sir, to be -- well, let me 16 back up for just a second. 17 As the first man in charge, would you rotate 18 with the second -- as the second man in charge, sir, would you 19 rotate with the first man in charge? 20 A. Yes, sir. 21 Q. And would you rotate about every half hour? 22 A. Yes, sir. 23 Q. And was that partly because it was a stressful 24 job? 25 A. Yes, sir. 171 1 Q. There was more stress involved in operating the 2 folder than there was in operating the reel or being the reel 3 man; right? 4 A. Definitely. 5 Q. Definitely true? 6 A. Definitely true. 7 Q. Did you ever hear a supervisor say, quote, I've 8 got the pencil? 9 A. Yes, sir. 10 Q. Would you tell the jury what that meant, sir. 11 A. That meant if you came in to work maybe my press 12 was down or whatever or they moved you around for some unknown 13 reason, you might say something to a foreman because he put 14 you in a position that you might not be real familiar with, 15 and you would ask him to maybe move you from that position, 16 but they said, "I got the pencil and I'll do with it what I 17 want." 18 Q. The foreman would say, "I've got the pencil and 19 you'll work where I want you to work"? 20 A. Yes, sir. Much like the chairman at markup 21 time. 22 Q. Mr. Scherer, would some of the foremen use that 23 power of the pencil and sometimes take Joe Wesbecker off of 24 the folder for a day or two and then stick him right back on 25 it again? 172 1 A. I think that's correct. 2 Q. It is correct? 3 A. I think so. 4 Q. Joe Wesbecker knew that job and he could do it; 5 correct? 6 A. Yes, sir. Joe was a good pressman. 7 Q. But it got to be too much for him, didn't it? 8 A. Yes, sir. It got to be too much for me at 9 times. 10 Q. Did Joe Wesbecker talk with you, sir, about his 11 relationship with Don Cox? 12 A. No, sir. 13 Q. Don Cox was the pressroom superintendent? 14 A. Yes, sir. 15 Q. Did he talk to you about his relationship with 16 Bill McKeown? 17 A. Bill McKeown? 18 Q. Bill McKeown. I've heard it pronounced a number 19 of different ways, sir. 20 A. Don Cox discuss with me about McKeown? 21 Q. No, sir. Did Joe Wesbecker talk to you about 22 his relationship with Bill McKeown? 23 A. Joe never talked to me; no, not at those times. 24 Q. What about Jim Popham? 25 A. No. They were all five-to-one people. I had 173 1 nothing to do with them. 2 Q. Mr. Scherer, do you remember giving your 3 deposition, sir, under oath in this case? 4 A. Yes, sir. 5 Q. On November 21, 1991? 6 A. Yes, sir. 7 Q. And you were represented by Mr. Gray, an 8 attorney; by Mr. Dilbeck, an attorney; and Mr. Bensinger, an 9 attorney? 10 A. Yes, sir. 11 Q. On Page 41, sir, Line 11, let me ask you if you 12 gave these answers, Mr. Scherer. 13 "Question: Did Wesbecker ever talk with you 14 about his relationship with Don Cox or Bill McKeown or Jim 15 Popham? 16 A. No, sir. 17 Q. "Answer: Just other than him saying something 18 about they were going to keep fooling with him. Other than 19 things like that, you could see he was -- he mumbled to 20 himself. 21 "Question: He would say things that they were 22 going to keep fooling with him? 23 "Answer: Yes. 24 "Question: Did he ever say what was going to 25 happen if they kept fooling with him? 174 1 "Answer: No. He never said anything like that 2 to me." 3 Do you recall giving those answers, sir? 4 A. Yes, sir. 5 Q. Do you recall Mr. Wesbecker after some sort of 6 an arbitration case you described it? 7 A. I think that's what all that pertained about, 8 the day that he found out that he had either won his 9 arbitration case and was called upstairs and told about it, 10 and that's when he walked past me and said what he said. 11 Q. Okay. Did he tell you, sir, that he was -- that 12 they had best leave him alone, meaning the people in upper 13 management? 14 A. I think maybe I might have said that. 15 Q. Did he say that to you, sir? 16 A. I think so. 17 Q. Did he say to you that he was into it with all 18 of them? 19 A. I don't recall. 20 Q. Did he say to you, sir, that he was pretty much 21 upset with Paula Warman and that he had had words with her? 22 A. I think I might have said that. 23 Q. Did he say that to you, sir? 24 A. Yes, sir. I think he might have said that to 25 me. 175 1 Q. Mr. Scherer, do you have any recollection, sir, 2 of being interviewed by the Louisville police officers after 3 the incident occurred, sir? 4 A. Well, I remember them in the emergency room. 5 They came in the emergency room. I couldn't tell you for sure 6 what I -- I was so messed up, I just wasn't for sure what I 7 would have said. I don't know. 8 Q. Do you recall, sir, making the following 9 statements to a Detective Mark Handy on September 14, 1989? 10 MR. SMITH: Your Honor, we object to that. He 11 says he doesn't recall making any statements that he -- any 12 statements that he might have made. 13 JUDGE POTTER: Objection is overruled. 14 Q. Do you recall saying to Detective Handy that you 15 had known Joseph Wesbecker for approximately 20 years, and in 16 that time on a daily basis Joe Wesbecker had spoken of guns 17 and how much fun it would be to come in and shoot the place up 18 at Standard Gravure? 19 A. I don't really recall that. I never knew Joe 20 was ever even interested in a gun. I never seen Joe with a 21 gun and I never heard him talk about hunting or anything like 22 that. The gun business, I don't know where I would have -- 23 unless I heard somebody say that. 24 Q. Mr. Scherer, did you tell that same detective at 25 the same time that you knew that Joe Wesbecker collected guns 176 1 and a gun magazine, and that he was after management because 2 they had been antagonizing him? 3 A. No. I don't recall that. 4 Q. Do you recall on the next day talking with a 5 Lieutenant Donald Burbrink of the Louisville Police 6 Department? 7 A. I don't remember talking to another. 8 Q. Do you recall making these statements to 9 Lieutenant Burbrink? 10 MR. SMITH: Your Honor, we object to that. He 11 said he doesn't recall talking to the officer. 12 JUDGE POTTER: Approach the bench. 13 (BENCH DISCUSSION) 14 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Smith, are you going to waive 15 any objection to the fact that he calls the police officer in 16 to say what he said? 17 MR. SMITH: No. I don't know what you assume 18 he's going to say. 19 JUDGE POTTER: I understand. I mean, I'm 20 assuming if you call the police, they're going to say this guy 21 made those statements. Under Kentucky law he has to confront 22 this Witness before he can call the other police officers. 23 I'm not sure if a guy says "I just can't remember things" are 24 good enough confrontation to draw his attention to it the best 25 way possible. If you're willing to let him call the policeman 177 1 without going through this drill with this fellow, fine; if 2 not, I think he's entitled to make sure the guy knows exactly 3 what he's saying. 4 MR. SMITH: He says he doesn't recall talking to 5 the man. 6 JUDGE POTTER: Do it this way, Mr. Stopher. I 7 think what he's saying is he'll waive any objection if you 8 call the police. 9 MR. STOPHER: Agreed? 10 MR. SMITH: Yeah. 11 (BENCH DISCUSSION CONCLUDED) 12 Q. Mr. Scherer, with regard to Joseph Wesbecker and 13 his desire to get off of the folder, did you observe that the 14 foremen knew that he could do the job and would rather put Joe 15 Wesbecker on the folder rather than somebody that wasn't as 16 familiar with it? 17 A. I think so. 18 Q. Did they tend or seem to abuse the people that 19 would work for them, sir? 20 A. I think so. 21 Q. And is it true that you could never understand 22 why it went on with Joe Wesbecker and why they just didn't 23 leave him alone? 24 A. I could never understand it. 25 Q. They made it hard on him, didn't they, sir? 178 1 A. I think so. 2 Q. Mr. Scherer, if I understand correctly, there 3 were foremen and supervisors at Standard Gravure that knew Joe 4 Wesbecker pretty well; is that true, sir? 5 A. Foremans? 6 Q. Yes, sir. 7 A. Yes, sir. 8 Q. And did they have information about him and 9 about his feelings toward themselves and toward Standard 10 Gravure in general, the management? 11 A. You'll have to repeat that. 12 Q. All right, sir. Did you have any information 13 prior to September 14, 1989, that the foremen and supervisors 14 were aware of his attitude toward management and toward 15 themselves? 16 A. No, sir. 17 Q. You don't think they were aware of it? 18 A. The foremans were, yeah, the foremans were -- I 19 think the foremans were aware of it. 20 Q. Were the foremen aware of threats? 21 A. I have a feeling that a lot of people -- I knew 22 that some sort of rumor was going on, but I could never find 23 out what it was. 24 Q. Did you ever hear, sir, Mr. Wesbecker say that 25 he had been upstairs, meaning the third-floor management area? 179 1 A. Uh-huh. 2 Q. Pardon me? 3 A. Yeah. He had been up there before. 4 Q. And when he would come back on those occasions, 5 would he be quiet, stay by himself and be real upset? 6 A. Not to my knowledge. I didn't always see him 7 come back. 8 Q. I understand you probably didn't always see him, 9 sir, but on the occasions that you did see him come back from 10 a meeting upstairs, did he behave like that? 11 A. Only one time that I know of. 12 Q. You saw him come back one time? 13 A. (Nods head affirmatively). 14 Q. Is that a yes? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. What do you recall about that time? 17 A. I didn't take him as being upset. I think he 18 was -- might have been sort of pleased that he had solved the 19 problem on his case. That's the best I could gather from him. 20 I didn't see him the rest of the day. 21 Q. Let me refer you again, Mr. Scherer, to Page 61 22 of the deposition that you gave under oath, sir. 23 A. Uh-huh. 24 Q. At Line 11 -- excuse me, Line 14. "What about 25 Wesbecker and Mr. McCall? 180 1 "Answer: I don't -- I think he had words with 2 him. It's just strictly hearsay. He would go upstairs and 3 converse with McCall and Paula Warman and people of that sort. 4 "Question: And then I think you told me earlier 5 that after those occasions he would come back and be real 6 quiet and stay by himself? 7 "Answer: He was definitely upset, yes. 8 Is that accurate, sir? 9 A. Yes, sir. 10 Q. Is it a fair statement, sir, that Mr. Wesbecker 11 didn't get along with most of the management up on the third 12 floor? 13 A. I couldn't answer that question because I really 14 don't -- I didn't know too many of management myself. 15 Q. And, sir, in the deposition, Page 69, Line 21, 16 "Question: Were there some people that he didn't get along 17 with as well as" -- and then your answer was, "Answer: Well, 18 I think most of management." 19 Is that accurate, sir? 20 A. I sort of had a feeling of that. That, of 21 course, again, was my own opinion. 22 Q. Mr. Scherer, you mentioned that he had always 23 been a neat man; am I correct? 24 A. Joe came there, he was a pretty neat person; he 25 kept his hair combed and wore nice work clothes. 181 1 Q. And then if I understand correctly, the last two 2 or three years that changed? 3 A. Yeah. He didn't care if he had his shirt 4 buttoned up crooked or... He didn't care. 5 Q. You told me at the deposition, as I recall it, 6 sir, that his clothes looked like something out of a rag bag? 7 A. That's right. 8 Q. Mr. Scherer, with regard to the guns that you 9 mentioned, was anybody ever fired or terminated for bringing a 10 gun into Standard Gravure? 11 A. Not to my knowledge. 12 Q. Was anybody ever disciplined, laid off, 13 reprimanded, scolded in some way for doing that? 14 A. Not to my knowledge. 15 Q. Mr. Scherer, did Mr. Wesbecker ever confide in 16 you, sir, with regard to his family situation? 17 A. Not to my knowledge. 18 Q. You and he worked together for the last two or 19 three years? 20 A. Yes, sir. 21 Q. But I take it from what you're telling me, he 22 didn't talk with you about his sons, Kevin and James, and any 23 issues concerning them? 24 A. No. We never talked about his family at all. I 25 knew he had problems and why disturb something like that. 182 1 Q. But he didn't discuss it with you or get any -- 2 A. Never. He kept it to hisself, as far as I know. 3 I never knew anything about his family. I never knew anything 4 about his sons till after the shooting. 5 Q. He kept those things to himself? 6 A. Yes, sir. 7 Q. I take it that he never, from what you said 8 earlier, confided in you that he was studying weapons and 9 acquiring weapons? 10 A. Like I said, to the day that the shooting 11 happened, I didn't even know the man was interested in a gun. 12 Q. Did he discuss his mental illness and his mental 13 problems with you, sir? 14 A. No, sir. 15 Q. Did he discuss suicide with you? 16 A. No, sir. 17 Q. Did he discuss with you, sir, his issues with 18 the company concerning the solvents: toluene, xylene and 19 xylo? 20 A. I think he was upset over toluene. 21 Q. What do you recall about why he was upset and 22 what he thought about toluene? 23 A. I think he -- I think he mentioned something 24 about between the medication and the toluene that he was -- it 25 must not have been a good mix for him, a bad drink, maybe. 183 1 But whatever he was taking or... 2 Q. Whatever he was taking he thought mixed badly 3 with toluene? 4 A. Yeah. 5 Q. Did he tell you what he thought it was doing to 6 him? 7 A. I don't remember. 8 Q. Did he blame Standard Gravure for that? 9 A. I never heard him blame Standard Gravure for 10 that. 11 Q. Did he ever mention to you, sir, that he thought 12 that the toluene had affected his genes and had -- he had 13 passed some tendencies on to his children? 14 A. Well, I didn't hear anything of the effect that 15 it passed genes on to his children. 16 Q. He never mentioned that to you? 17 A. (Shakes head negatively). 18 Q. On that shift that you were on, sir, the last 19 two or three years, Mr. Ganote was there, yourself, Mr. 20 Wesbecker and I forget the name of the fourth man, sir. I 21 apologize. 22 A. Probably Willy Stover. 23 Q. Willy Stover. Would you say you were closer to 24 him among the members of that shift and that crew rather than 25 anybody else? 184 1 A. I probably was. 2 Q. And during that last two to three years, he only 3 talked with you about the topics that you and I have 4 discussed? 5 A. Yes, sir. 6 Q. He kept most things to himself, sir? Fair 7 statement? 8 A. Yes, sir. Stayed to hisself when he felt bad. 9 Q. Thank you, sir. 10 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Smith? 11 MR. SMITH: Nothing further, Your Honor. 12 JUDGE POTTER: Thank you very much, sir. You 13 may step down. 14 Mr. Smith, you want to call your next witness. 15 MR. SMITH: Your Honor, at this time we call 16 Nancy Montgomery Bryant. I believe she may be out in the 17 hall. 18 JUDGE POTTER: Ma'am, would you step right here 19 and raise your right hand, please. 20 21 NANCY MONTGOMERY BRYANT, after first being duly 22 sworn, was examined and testified as follows: 23 24 JUDGE POTTER: Would you step around, have a 25 seat in the jury box -- I mean, the witness box. Would you 185 1 keep your voice up good and loud and give us your first and 2 last names and then spell it, please. 3 A. Nancy Bryant, B-R-Y-A-N-T. 4 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. And, Ms. Bryant, if you'll 5 answer Mr. Smith's questions. 6 7 EXAMINATION ___________ 8 9 MR._SMITH: ___ ______ 10 Q. How old a lady are you, ma'am? 11 A. Fifty-four. 12 Q. And where do you live? 13 A. 2512 Catawba Lane. 14 Q. Is that here in Louisville? 15 A. Yes, sir. 16 Q. And do you live there with anyone else? 17 A. My husband and my son. 18 Q. How long have you been a Louisville resident, 19 Ms. Bryant? 20 A. All my life. 21 Q. Are you in any way related to Joseph T. 22 Wesbecker? 23 A. Yes, sir. I'm his aunt. 24 Q. What is the difference in age between you and 25 Joseph Wesbecker? 186 1 A. About a year and a half. 2 Q. Are you a year and a half older than Mr. 3 Wesbecker? 4 A. Yes, sir. 5 Q. What is your -- what was your mother's name? 6 A. Nancy Montgomery. 7 Q. Same name as you have? 8 A. Yes, sir. 9 Q. How many children were there in your family, Ms. 10 Bryant? 11 A. She had 11 children, 10 of them lived. 12 Q. And of those 10, where did you fit in? 13 A. Next to the youngest. 14 Q. And of those 10, where did Joe's mother, Martha, 15 fit in? 16 A. She was the oldest. 17 Q. How much difference in age is there, Ms. Bryant, 18 between you and Martha Wesbecker, Joe Wesbecker's mother? 19 A. I guess she's about 68, so I guess 14, 15 years. 20 I have to go all the way up. 21 Q. I won't do that to you. 22 A. Okay. 23 Q. When you were born, had your sister Martha 24 already married Mr. Wesbecker? 25 A. No, sir. I don't believe so. It was 187 1 afterwards. 2 Q. What's your understanding as to how old you were 3 when Martha got married? 4 A. I don't even know if I was here yet. 5 Q. All right. And what's your first recollection 6 of Joe Wesbecker, your nephew? 7 A. Right. I guess when we lived on Pope Street, I 8 mean, when we were just little kids. 9 Q. How old were you when you moved to Pope Street? 10 A. I was about seven, six or seven. 11 Q. And Joe was a year and a half younger than you? 12 A. Yes, sir. 13 Q. Did Joe and his mother, Nancy, live with you at 14 times on Pope Street? 15 A. Martha? 16 Q. I mean Martha. I'm sorry. 17 A. Yes, sir; they did. 18 Q. And why was that, ma'am? 19 A. Her husband had died. 20 Q. When was it that her husband, Joe's father, had 21 died? 22 A. I believe Joe was only about a year and a half 23 or something like that when he died. I don't really remember. 24 I was too young. 25 Q. Who then lived there on Pope Street? 188 1 A. All of us. You want me to go down the line? 2 Q. Probably better, so we can get this straight. 3 A. Okay. Martha, Mildred -- 4 Q. Let's cite who it is. 5 A. Martha's my sister, Mildred's by sister, and 6 Mary's my sister, Colleen's my sister, Rose was my sister, and 7 then my brother Albert, and then eventually Johnny and his 8 wife built an apartment in the basement. 9 Q. Is that John Montgomery? 10 A. Yes, sir. 11 Q. Was the relationship between you and Joe 12 Wesbecker like a niece and nephew or was it more like a 13 brother and sister? 14 A. Brother and sister. He was always there. 15 Q. And because of the proximity of age? 16 A. Right. We all considered him our brother. 17 Q. All of your sisters considered Joe Wesbecker as 18 their brother? 19 A. Yes, sir. 20 Q. Did they all from time to time give big-sister 21 input into Joe? 22 A. I'm sure they did. 23 Q. And did Joe from time to time react to these 24 women as his sister? 25 A. Yeah. I would say he did. 189 1 Q. Tell me about your older sister Nancy -- your 2 older sister Martha, Joe's mother. Have I got it right? 3 A. You've got it right. 4 Q. She was how old when Joe was born? 5 A. I believe she was 16 or 17. 6 Q. And then how long was it before she became 7 pregnant with Joe? 8 A. I really don't know, sir. I know he was born -- 9 I think his father died just before mine did, so he wasn't 10 around too long, you know. I don't... 11 Q. Is it your understanding that Joe's father, 12 Martha's husband, Mr. -- was it Thomas Wesbecker? 13 A. Yes, sir. 14 Q. Died a year -- when Joe was a year and a half 15 old? 16 A. It could have been; yes, sir. He died just 17 before my father did. 18 Q. And how did Joe's father, Thomas Wesbecker, die? 19 A. From what I understood, he fell off of the top 20 of St. James's Church. He was working on the church, the top, 21 I don't know what kind of work he did, but he lost his glasses 22 and he went to find them and he fell off the church, I mean, 23 off the roof. 24 Q. You say your father also died at about the same 25 time? 190 1 A. Yes, sir. 2 Q. What was your father's name? 3 A. John Thomas. 4 Q. Montgomery? 5 A. John Thomas, I believe, yes. 6 Q. And how old were you when he died? 7 A. I was about three years old. 8 Q. And how did he die, ma'am? 9 A. He was -- he worked at the K & I and he fell 10 off -- he was a switchman on the train and he fell off and was 11 run over by the train. 12 Q. So after Joe was a year and a half old, Nancy 13 moved back in with you after -- 14 A. Martha. 15 Q. Martha moved back in with you after her husband, 16 Joe's father, died? 17 A. That's what I understood. That's what I 18 understood; yes, sir. 19 Q. So in the house only you would have Nancy, your 20 mother; Martha and Joe? 21 A. Right. 22 Q. Then you and your other sisters? 23 A. All of us; yes, sir. 24 Q. And some brothers from time to time? 25 A. Yes, sir. 191 1 Q. Were the brothers older and they had already 2 gone off? 3 A. Except Albert; right. My other two brothers 4 were a lot older. 5 Q. Describe Joe Wesbecker, once you got old enough 6 to remember him. As I understand it that was once you got 7 over to Pope Street? 8 A. Basically, yes. I mean, he was just -- just 9 like the rest of us, you know, we went out, we played ball. 10 We did silly things, just like children do. There was nothing 11 special that I can remember. 12 Q. Was he a bad boy? 13 A. I don't think he was; no, sir. 14 Q. Do you know of anybody that thought he was bad 15 as a boy? 16 A. No, sir; not to me. 17 Q. Did you love him like a brother at that time? 18 A. Yes, sir. Still do. 19 Q. Was Joe's mother, Martha, working -- 20 A. Yes, sir. 21 Q. -- when you-all were living on Pope Street? 22 A. Yes, sir. 23 Q. And where was she working? 24 A. I believe she was working at Stewart's Dry Goods 25 Company. 192 1 Q. Doing what, please, ma'am? 2 A. Saleslady. 3 Q. And was your mother, Nancy, working at the time? 4 5 A. Yes, sir. 6 Q. And what was she doing? 7 A. I believe she was working in the lunchroom at a 8 school. 9 Q. And so were you children there -- did any of you 10 work during this period of time? 11 A. The older ones; yes, sir. 12 Q. And how did you take care of each other, if your 13 mother and your older sister was working? 14 A. There was always an older one there somewhere. 15 There was three of them in high school and they came home 16 about the same time we did from school. 17 Q. Do you feel that you were an abused or neglected 18 child? 19 A. No, sir. 20 Q. Do you feel like Joe Wesbecker was an abused or 21 neglected child? 22 A. No, sir; I don't. 23 Q. He was put in an orphan's home at one time while 24 you were living on Pope Street; is that right? 25 A. I believe that's when it was. 193 1 Q. Do you recall -- I know you were a little 2 girl -- the circumstances of Joe going into an orphan's home? 3 A. No, sir; I really don't. I just know he was 4 there. 5 Q. And how long was he there? 6 A. I'm not even sure about that, sir, it wasn't 7 very long. I don't think it was even a year maybe. 8 Q. Did you go to visit Joe in the orphan's home? 9 A. I can remember taking a bus with my mother to go 10 see him; yes, sir. 11 Q. But do you throughout your life have any 12 knowledge as to why Joe was in the orphan's home? 13 A. No, sir; I do not. 14 Q. Who was operating that orphanage? 15 A. I think it was St. Thomas/St. Vincent's Home. 16 Q. Were you-all Catholic? 17 A. Yes, sir. 18 Q. Did your mother, Nancy, enforce good church 19 Catholic rules on your family? 20 A. Well, she didn't enforce them. When you went to 21 a Catholic school, you went to church every morning and 22 Sunday; you just automatically got up and went, and holy days. 23 Q. How about Joe? Do you remember him as a child 24 in addition to being in an orphanage having religious 25 background? 194 1 A. No, sir. I wouldn't. I do know if he went to a 2 Catholic school, when he went there he went to church. 3 Q. Do you remember anything occurring there on Pope 4 Street, any other unpleasant memories or pleasant memories 5 that involved Joe Wesbecker? 6 A. No, sir; I don't. 7 Q. Do you remember whether he was there when you 8 got your first TV set? 9 A. Yes, sir. He was. 10 Q. When was that; do you remember? 11 A. Oh, we were just little. I don't remember. I 12 just remember what kind it was. I can remember he told us 13 there was no Santa Claus. He showed us the dolls. 14 Q. He told you all? 15 A. No. Me and my younger sister. 16 Q. Did Joe like going to school? 17 A. No, sir. 18 Q. Was he a truant? 19 A. Well, I guess; yes, sir. 20 Q. How often did he get caught not going to school? 21 A. I couldn't tell you. 22 Q. And you think it was nine to ten months that Joe 23 may have been in the orphanage, or do you know? 24 A. I really don't know, sir. No, I don't. 25 Q. Do you recall that as being a trauma on Joe? 195 1 Did he ever mention that this was a horrible thing for him to 2 you? 3 A. Never to me; no, sir, he did not. 4 Q. Do you know of anybody who mentioned this as 5 being an unpleasant experience for him? 6 A. No, sir. 7 Q. Where did you live after Pope Street? 8 A. Burnett Street. 9 Q. Is that in the west end? 10 A. Sort of; yes, sir. 11 Q. Now, did Joe live with you -- Joe and his 12 mother, Martha, live with you the entire time that you-all 13 were at Pope Street? 14 A. I can't remember. I don't believe they did; no, 15 sir. 16 Q. Okay. How about once you moved to the -- on 17 Burnett Street in the west end? 18 A. Sometimes they -- for a while they moved over on 19 another street, but he always -- seems like he was always back 20 there with us. 21 Q. If he wasn't living with you he was living close 22 to you? 23 A. Sometimes; yes, sir. 24 Q. How old were you when you moved to Pope Street, 25 six years old? 196 1 A. Somewhere around there. 2 Q. And then how old were you or what grade were you 3 in when you moved over to Burnett Street? 4 A. I was in the sixth grade, so, about 12. 5 Q. And how long did you live on Burnett Street? 6 A. I lived on Burnett Street until I got married in 7 1958. 8 Q. And how old were you when you got married? 9 A. Eighteen. 10 Q. If you can, Ms. Bryant, I'm trying to segment 11 this, so we'll know. Do you recall anything about Joe's years 12 that -- I guess this would mean between the time he was in the 13 6th and 10th grade while you were on the west end or living on 14 Burnett Street, do you recall anything good, bad or 15 indifferent about Joe? 16 A. No. 17 Q. Did you still have what you considered a 18 brother/sister relationship? 19 A. Yes, sir. All his life. 20 Q. And did you feel that he looked to you as a 21 sister? 22 A. Yes, sir. 23 Q. With love and affection? 24 A. Yes, sir. 25 Q. Did he ever pick on you like brothers pick on 197 1 sisters sometimes? 2 A. Yes, sir. 3 Q. Would you ever pick on him like sisters pick on 4 brothers sometimes? 5 A. That's right. 6 Q. How about as Joe got older, in his late teens, 7 what type of teenager was he? 8 A. Well, basically, by that time I was married and 9 I wasn't around a whole lot then. I really didn't come back 10 in contact with him a lot until after my husband and I 11 separated and I moved back out with my mother. 12 Q. Back on Burnett Street? 13 A. No, sir. By then she moved out to Shively. 14 Q. I'm sorry? 15 A. By then she had moved out to Shively. 16 Q. Shively? 17 A. Uh-huh. 18 Q. And who lived there in the house at Shively with 19 your mother when you moved back? 20 A. Okay. There was Martha, Joe, and Albert, me and 21 the two -- my two sons, as far as I can remember. 22 Q. Was this a big house? 23 A. Yes, sir. 24 Q. When you moved back you were pregnant and you 25 had a year-and-a-half-old son? 198 1 A. Yes, sir. 2 Q. How did Joe respond to that? 3 A. He took over and helped me with them. In fact, 4 my youngest son used to call him Daddy. 5 Q. In what ways would he help you, Ms. Bryant? 6 A. Well, like when I needed somebody to watch them 7 or when I went to work when I finally got a job and he would 8 have to take his mother to work, he would take care of Chuck 9 until somebody else would -- he would take him over to my 10 other sister's and take his mother to work, and then he would 11 go back over there and pick him up and take care of him till I 12 got home from work. 13 Q. Chuck was your oldest son? 14 A. Yes, sir. 15 Q. How did Joe respond when you had your second 16 child? 17 A. He did the same thing. 18 Q. Which was? 19 A. He helped me with him, too. 20 Q. How long did he continue to help you with your 21 two young children? 22 A. Well, until he -- well, even after he got 23 married my baby-sitter -- he come out there one day and she 24 wasn't treating the children the way he thought she should, 25 and I told him I had to work and he said, "Well, Sue and I 199 1 will come out and watch them during the day till somebody gets 2 home," and so they did. 3 Q. How long did Joe live in the house -- I guess he 4 was living in the house on Shively? 5 A. He was living in Shively. That's a community. 6 Q. How long did Joe live there? 7 A. Until him and Sue got married. 8 Q. And do you remember when that was? 9 A. I believe it was in '62, somewhere around there. 10 I'm not positive. 11 Q. And did Joe continue to help you with your 12 children until that time when he got married? 13 A. Even afterwards he would call and tell me 14 that -- if he heard in the family or something that I needed 15 anything, like when I needed a new roof he called and told me, 16 he said, "I know you don't have the money; if you want to, 17 I'll lend you the money and you can pay it back whenever you 18 want." 19 Q. When was that? 20 A. Oh, that was -- that was quite some time ago, I 21 guess about -- I couldn't tell you no date, sir. It's been 22 over 20 years ago; that's for sure. 23 Q. A long time ago? 24 A. Yes, sir. 25 Q. It was when he was still a relatively young man? 200 1 A. Yes, sir. 2 Q. Was he working at the time? 3 A. Yes, sir. He went to work at Fawcett-Haynes I 4 know it was December the 5th, I believe, 1960, the same day I 5 got my first job, and we cried together the night before. 6 Q. Why were you crying together? 7 A. Because we were both going to have to go to 8 work. 9 Q. Did you not want to go to work or was it just a 10 responsibility? 11 A. We were just teasing around. He was looking for 12 a job and so was I. 13 Q. Had you graduated from high school? 14 A. Yes, sir. 15 Q. Did Joe graduate from high school? 16 A. No, sir. 17 Q. Do you know why? 18 A. I don't think he liked school. I think he 19 eventually took an equivalency test. 20 Q. And got his GED? 21 A. Yes, sir. 22 Q. Did Joe ever say in his later years that he 23 wished he had gotten his education? 24 A. Yes, sir. He realized he made a mistake, but it 25 was too late. That's why he wanted to make sure his sons 201 1 always had one. 2 Q. A high school or college education? 3 A. Well, as much as they could get. 4 Q. Do you remember Joe going off to work back on 5 December 5th, 1960? 6 A. He went one way and I went the other; yes, sir. 7 Q. Did you-all have a car at that time? 8 A. No, sir. 9 Q. How did Joe report his job at Fawcett-Dearing? 10 Did he like it or did he ever let you know? 11 A. He liked it. He liked it, as far as I know. 12 Q. So it would have been a couple of years or maybe 13 even longer after Joe started working at Fawcett-Dearing that 14 he got married to Sue? 15 A. Yes, sir. 16 Q. What was Sue's name? 17 A. Sue White. 18 Q. And do you know how he and Sue White met? 19 A. I believe she was going to Shawnee School and he 20 used to drive some girls to school and they'd give him the 21 money for gas, and I think she was one of them he ended up 22 picking up and driving back home, and that's how they met. 23 Q. Did you know Sue before he met Joe? 24 A. No, sir. I did not know her before then. 25 Q. After you met Sue, tell the jury what it 202 1 appeared that Sue and Joe's relationship was before they got 2 married. 3 A. Before they got married they seemed to be very 4 happy. 5 Q. And after they got married did they move out or 6 move to a house of their own? 7 A. Yes, sir; they moved. Yes, sir. I believe they 8 moved in an apartment. 9 Q. Do you remember where the first apartment was? 10 A. No, sir. 11 Q. I want to back up with you, Ms. Bryant, and ask 12 you if you have any opinion concerning whether or not Joe was 13 closer to his grandmother, Nancy, or his mother, Martha? 14 A. My opinion? 15 Q. Yes, ma'am. 16 A. His grandmother. 17 Q. You mean -- do you have any reason for that? 18 A. Just my feelings. 19 Q. Okay. Why don't you express that. 20 A. Well, my mother was always there. You've got to 21 realize, Martha was awful young when her husband died and she 22 was left with that boy, and she was working and it just seemed 23 like he was always there with us. And, to me, she just seemed 24 like sometimes she would try to give him more than she should 25 rather than giving him the love that she should have given 203 1 him. Not the love, but the care. I know she loved him. 2 Q. Did she abuse Joe? 3 A. No, sir. I don't believe he was ever abused. 4 Q. Martha was just young? 5 A. Yes, sir. She was only 17, I think, when her 6 husband died and she had a young son. 7 Q. Was your mother, Nancy, the type of woman that 8 was kind of a take-charge lady? 9 A. She had to be. 10 Q. So she was? 11 A. Yes, sir. 12 Q. And did your mother, Nancy, help in raising 13 Martha's son, Joe? 14 A. I believe so; yes, sir. 15 Q. You have how many children now? 16 A. Who? 17 Q. You. 18 A. I have two sons. 19 Q. In your opinion as a mother, did Joe Wesbecker 20 get adequate nursing and admonition and care from mother 21 figures between Martha and Nancy, his mother and grandmother? 22 A. Yes, sir. 23 Q. Did you know of anything that your mother, 24 Nancy, or Joe's mother, Martha, that they did that would have 25 in any way contributed to the tragedy that occurred on 204 1 September 14th, 1989? 2 A. No, sir. No, sir. 3 Q. What kind of activities did Joe Wesbecker engage 4 in as a teenager, if you know? 5 A. I'm not sure. I thought he might have tried to 6 play football, but I'm not sure. 7 Q. Did he start to work at Fawcett-Dearing when he 8 was pretty young? 9 A. No, sir. He would have been -- I was about 26, 10 he would have been about 18. I think he had worked a few 11 different places before but... 12 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Smith, would there be -- 13 since we're going to try and work in a break this afternoon, 14 would this be a convenient place to take it? 15 MR. SMITH: Be fine with me, Your Honor. 16 JUDGE POTTER: As I've mentioned to you-all, do 17 not permit anybody to talk to you about this case; do not 18 discuss it among yourselves and do not form or express 19 opinions about it. We'll take a 15-minute recess. 20 (RECESS) 21 SHERIFF CECIL: The jury is now entering. All 22 jurors present. 23 JUDGE POTTER: Please be seated. 24 Ma'am, I would remind you you're still under 25 oath. 205 1 Mr. Smith. 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 206 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. SMITH: Ms. Bryant, I want to back up to you 205 1 a little bit. There were some references made in earlier 2 statements I believe in connection with you about some 3 testimony you gave where Joe had hit you in the head with a 4 bucket or a shovel with a bucket. Do you recall that? 5 A. I don't remember. 6 Q. When you-all were toddlers? 7 A. I could have. Yes, sir. I might have forgot 8 it. I don't know if I said it before or not. 9 Q. Do you remember that as being any violent 10 incident in your life in your childhood or in your 11 relationship with Joe Wesbecker? 12 A. No, sir. 13 Q. Do you remember whether you hit him back? 14 A. Probably I did. 15 Q. Or do you remember whether you hit him first? 16 A. I could have, either way. 17 Q. Do you recall Joe ever getting any whippings or 18 spankings from his Uncle John where he would continue to get a 19 spanking and continue to come over and hit you and things of 20 that nature? 21 A. No, sir. 22 Q. Do you remember that happening in connection 23 with any of your sisters? 24 A. No, sir; I really don't. 25 206 1 Q. Do you remember Joe having a bad temper with you 2 girls, and I say that because -- 3 A. No, not with me or my younger sister. I mean, 4 you know, I don't really recall it that way. 5 Q. Did you like Joe's first wife, Sue? 6 A. Yes, sir; I did. 7 Q. Do you remember when Joe and Sue had their two 8 sons? 9 A. Yes, sir. 10 Q. And where were you living at the time that Joe's 11 children were born; do you recall? 12 A. I believe I was living on Third Street. 13 Q. Had you remarried by that time? 14 A. No, sir; I don't believe so. 15 Q. Did Joe and Sue baby-sit for you any after 16 either one of their children were born? 17 A. I don't really recall; no, sir. 18 Q. Did you continue to keep in close contact with 19 Joe after he married Sue? 20 A. Well, not real close. I had two kids. Both of 21 my kids were sick and I was working every day and I didn't 22 really -- you know, you just saw him on holidays and things 23 like that. 24 Q. Would you-all have family get-togethers like 25 other families? 207 1 A. Yes, sir. 2 Q. Christmas? 3 A. Christmas, Thanksgiving and anytime anybody 4 wants to play cards. 5 Q. Would you see Joe and Sue socially? 6 A. At places like that; yes, sir. And when the 7 kids made First Communions and baptisms and all the stuff like 8 that, weddings. 9 Q. Did Joe participate in that kind of stuff? 10 A. Yes, sir. If he wasn't working he was there. 11 Q. Had Joe moved to Standard Gravure by this time? 12 A. Well, I don't know. You know, they're still 13 growing up. I mean, they're still -- I think he went down 14 there around in '70, I'm not sure, so... 15 Q. Do you recall there becoming a problem in Joe 16 and Sue's marriage? 17 A. Yes, sir. Afterwards. 18 Q. Afterwards when? 19 A. When -- when they were separated. 20 Q. And when would that have been? 21 A. I could not tell you that, sir. 22 Q. Would the early 1980s sound right? 23 A. It could have been. 24 Q. Up until the time that Joe and Sue separated, 25 were you aware of any mental problems or conditions that Joe 208 1 might have had? 2 A. No, sir. 3 Q. Did you even notice any periods of moodiness or 4 depression or down periods that Joe had experienced? 5 A. No, sir. 6 Q. How about after when Joe and Sue separated? 7 A. One time I took my mother to the hospital to see 8 him, and he said the doctor had put him in there because him 9 and Sue had had a little trouble and the doctor and his lawyer 10 both thought he should go to the hospital, but he was just in 11 there a couple days. 12 Q. Do you remember what kind of trouble that he and 13 Sue were having? 14 A. All I know is that she was saying things and he 15 was saying things. 16 Q. And Joe ended up in the hospital? 17 A. Well, I think -- I'm not sure if that's exactly 18 when it was, but I do know he was in there for a couple of 19 days and they thought it was best for him to go to a hospital. 20 Q. Was that for a psychiatric condition, mental 21 illness? 22 A. I'm not really sure why it was. I know he was 23 in that part of the hospital. 24 Q. The psychiatric ward? 25 A. Not the ward. It was just, you know, like a 209 1 room, that's all. He wasn't tied down or nothing; he was 2 sitting there just talking to us. 3 Q. Did he appear physically ill? 4 A. No, sir. 5 Q. Did he appear down or sad or moody at that time? 6 A. No, sir. 7 Q. Was he acting strange? 8 A. No, sir. 9 Q. Was he making complaints of seeing the ceiling 10 moving or anything of that nature to you? 11 A. Not to me; no, sir. 12 Q. What was his outlook like in connection with his 13 mental health at that time? 14 A. As far as I know, it was fine. 15 Q. Then when was the next time you had contact with 16 Joe after this hospitalization? 17 A. Oh, just off and on just back to the family 18 get-togethers and things like that. When my kids were in the 19 hospital he'd come up to see them and see if I needed anything 20 or any help with them or anything like that. 21 Q. What was the nature of their physical problems, 22 Ms. Bryant? 23 A. I had a son with cerebral palsy and one with a 24 bad heart. 25 Q. And was Joe supportive of you with these 210 1 illnesses that your children had? 2 A. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. 3 Q. Did you come to find out that Joe's children had 4 problems themselves? 5 A. I knew his oldest son did; yes, sir. 6 Q. Kevin? 7 A. Yes, sir. 8 Q. And what kind of problem did Kevin have? 9 A. He had trouble with his back. I believe they 10 call it scoliosis. 11 Q. Did there come a period of time when Joe and 12 Kevin had some type of falling-out or that their relationship 13 cooled? 14 A. Yes, sir. 15 Q. When was that, Ms. Bryant? 16 A. Kevin was supposed to be going to school, to 17 college, and Joe -- and he had to go to the hospital and he 18 used Joe's insurance at Standard Gravure. And when Joe found 19 out he wasn't in college, he got highly upset because he 20 thought he could have lost his job over it because it was a 21 violation or something. And so he told me he had to go out 22 and talk to him and got it straightened out, but they said 23 that was okay because he didn't know at the time. 24 Q. As I understand it, Joe was upset? 25 A. Yes, sir. He was upset because he thought he 211 1 could lose his job. 2 Q. And Kevin had claimed in that policy or at least 3 that policy had provided that it would only provide health 4 coverage to members of the household that were actually living 5 with Joe and not in college? 6 A. No, sir. I think the way it was is that they 7 were on his insurance plan as long as they were in school. 8 And he thought Kevin -- he thought Kevin was in school. 9 Q. Was he mad at Kevin for making a claim on his 10 insurance or was he mad at Kevin for not being in school? 11 A. Basically it could have been both, but at that 12 time he was real upset with Kevin because he was afraid he was 13 going to lose his job because he used his insurance. 14 Q. But did that get straightened out? 15 A. Yes, sir. It got straightened out. 16 Q. Was this before or after Joe and Sue had 17 divorced? 18 A. After. 19 Q. After Joe and Sue divorced was Joe still 20 interested in the children and their welfare generally? 21 A. Yes, sir; he always was. 22 Q. Tell the jury about Jimmy. What kind of 23 problems did Jimmy have? 24 A. You mean about exposing himself? Is that what 25 you're talking about? 212 1 Q. Yes, ma'am. 2 A. Yes, sir. 3 Q. When did that occur or begin? 4 A. They told me he was around 14 or 15. 5 Q. So would that have been after Joe and Sue 6 divorced? 7 A. I believe it was. 8 Q. And did you talk with Joe about this? 9 A. Not a whole lot; no, sir. All he would tell me 10 is that he was getting a doctor's help for him. 11 Q. Did Joe seem interested in getting this 12 psychiatric problem that his son Jimmy had straightened out? 13 A. Yes, sir. 14 Q. Do you remember when Joe met and/or married 15 Brenda Wesbecker? 16 A. Yes and no. I mean, to me, I mean, they were 17 just basically all of a sudden they were married. I didn't 18 even really know. 19 Q. That was in '80 what, '82? 20 A. I could not tell you. 21 Q. Did you know Brenda very well before they were 22 married? 23 A. I don't even think I had really met her. 24 Q. And did you meet her after they married? 25 A. Yes, sir. 213 1 Q. And how did you and Brenda get along? 2 A. I don't believe we got along too good. 3 Q. Why is that, Ms. Bryant? 4 A. I mean, I just didn't care for her. 5 Q. Tell me about the relationship that you observed 6 between Joe and his second wife. 7 A. I think it -- I think she had two children and 8 he had two children and it just didn't work for them. 9 Q. Had a problem in mixing families? 10 A. I believe so; yes, sir. 11 Q. Did you become aware that Joe and his second 12 wife, Brenda, were divorced? 13 A. Yes, sir. 14 Q. Did you keep up with Joe during this period of 15 time? 16 A. He would call. He always called faithfully 17 about once a month or so just to see how everybody was doing. 18 Q. When you say everybody, who do you mean by that? 19 A. Well, the family. He would call me sometimes. 20 He'd call my sisters and just ask how we were doing. Like, he 21 heard my son was looking for a job and he called to tell him 22 he thought he knew of a place where he could get a job and 23 different things like that. 24 Q. Was Joe still keeping in touch with your mother, 25 his grandmother, Nancy? 214 1 A. Yes, sir. 2 Q. Did he call her on a regular basis? 3 A. I'm not real sure. By that time I think my mom 4 was in a nursing home. 5 Q. How about his mother, your sister Martha; was he 6 talking with her? 7 A. What I understand, him and her had a 8 disagreement. 9 Q. What's your understanding concerning the nature 10 of their disagreement? 11 A. Well, when Jimmy was getting in trouble he 12 couldn't go back home and so he came to live with Martha, and 13 Martha thought she had custody of him and she was going to get 14 him a different doctor, and it made Joe mad. 15 Q. Did Joe talk to you about this? 16 A. No, sir. 17 Q. How did you know about it then? 18 A. I've got sisters. 19 Q. Well, was Joe threatening anybody, your sister 20 Martha, about this? 21 A. No, sir. I don't believe he threatened her, no. 22 Q. Did you hear he had gone into some rage or 23 anything about that? 24 A. He might have been upset, but -- you know, he 25 was maybe angry, but I don't think he went into no rage or 215 1 anything, from what I understand. 2 Q. Up to September 14th, 1989, Ms. Bryant, do you 3 know of any violent act that your nephew Joseph Wesbecker 4 committed? 5 A. No, sir; I do not. 6 Q. Did you believe up to September 14th, 1989, that 7 he was the type of individual that would commit a violent act? 8 A. No, sir. 9 Q. After the divorce from Brenda in let's say '85 10 to '89, did you continue to keep in touch with Joe? 11 A. Yes, sir. 12 Q. And can you tell the jury whether or not his 13 mental condition remained stable, got worse or got better from 14 what you could observe? 15 A. I didn't see a whole lot of difference in him. 16 He was kind of upset because of Jimmy, and he said he'd spend 17 whatever he had to to help him in every way he could, but that 18 was -- that -- you know, but, I mean, he wasn't crazy or 19 nothing. 20 Q. When did you last see your nephew Joe Wesbecker? 21 A. The day of my mother's funeral. 22 Q. Do you remember when that was? 23 A. August the 9th. 24 Q. 1989? 25 A. Yes, sir. 216 1 Q. Had your mom been sick for some time? 2 A. Yes, sir. 3 Q. Had she been in fact in a nursing home? 4 A. Yes, sir. 5 Q. How long had she been in a nursing home? 6 A. I don't know. She was in a nursing home, and 7 then in July of that year she had a -- I believe it was a 8 stroke and then we had to put her in a full-care home, you 9 know. That's where she passed away. 10 Q. Was she lucid the latter years of her life, your 11 mother, Nancy? 12 A. Not the last few years; no, sir. 13 Q. Did she have Alzheimer's disease? 14 A. No, sir; she did not. She died of congestive 15 heart failure is what I understood it to be. 16 Q. But before her death did she have the condition 17 known as Alzheimer's disease? 18 A. No, sir; not that I was ever told. 19 Q. Do you know whether or not Joe went to visit 20 your mom, his grandmother, in the hospital? 21 A. Yes, sir. He was there. 22 Q. Prior to her death? 23 A. Yes, sir. And him and Brenda would go -- Brenda 24 would go fix Mom's hair sometimes at the nursing home. 25 Q. That was Joe's ex-wife? 217 1 A. Well, that was -- yes, the second one. 2 Q. But they had divorced by that time? 3 A. But they were still living together. And he had 4 told people at the funeral, he introduced her as his wife, so 5 we didn't know. 6 Q. You didn't know that he and Brenda had divorced? 7 A. Yes. We knew they had divorced but we didn't 8 know if the divorce had become final or if they had gone back 9 together before it became final, but he did introduce her as 10 his wife. 11 Q. At the funeral? 12 A. Yes, sir; at the funeral home. 13 Q. On August 9th, 1989? 14 A. I mean, it was in August after she had passed 15 away. She was at the funeral home; she wasn't with him at the 16 funeral. 17 Q. Was Joe unusually sorrowful or sad on the 18 occasion of his grandmother's death? 19 A. He was just like the rest of us. We lost 20 somebody we loved. 21 Q. But other than that, was he in deep, grieving 22 pain any more than the rest of you? 23 A. I don't believe that... 24 Q. Did you talk to Joe? 25 A. For a few minutes; yes, sir. 218 1 Q. And do you recall anything that you said or he 2 said? 3 A. No. He just came up and put his arm around me 4 and asked me if I was doing okay. 5 Q. Did you talk to Joe on the telephone after that? 6 A. Yes, sir. 7 Q. When was that? 8 A. Around the end of August, around the 23rd, 9 somewhere around there. 10 Q. Tell the jury about that conversation. 11 A. He called me and said that -- wanted to know if 12 I wanted to come out and see his estate; that's where Brenda's 13 house was. Because he knew I liked some stuff like that; he 14 knew I liked antiques and things. And her father had died and 15 had left some things to her, and he was laughing and wanted to 16 know if I wanted to come out and see it. And I told him that 17 Mary was at the hospital and she had bypass surgery. And I 18 lived closest to the hospital and I was going up there with 19 her husband and taking him over to the house and giving him 20 something to eat and letting him clean up so he wouldn't have 21 to go all the way back to his house. So I told him I didn't 22 think I could. He said, "I'm going to be working at 23 Nottingham Way," his house. They were fixing it up to sell. 24 He wasn't living there. He was living with Brenda then; 25 that's what he told me, that they were fixing the house up, 219 1 painting it and everything to sell it. 2 Q. Now, the estate that you're talking about is the 3 residence of Brenda's father? 4 A. It was Brenda's house; yes, sir. Her father had 5 left it to her. 6 Q. And where was that located? 7 A. Blevins Gap Road. 8 Q. And did you know when Brenda's father passed 9 away; was it shortly before that? 10 A. I believe it was around July or something 11 because my mom was in the hospital and I remember leaving the 12 hospital and going to the funeral home. 13 Q. And did he call you on or about August 23rd and 14 invited you there to see some of the antiques? 15 A. To see the place, yes. It was a big place, I 16 guess. And he asked if my husband and I wanted to come out. 17 Then he called me back the next day and I told him that we 18 couldn't, that I was just so tired. And he said that he had 19 been up to the hospital to see Mary but that they wouldn't let 20 him in because they were doing something to her at the time 21 and so he had had to leave to go pick up his son at the 22 university. 23 Q. Joe had gone to see your sister Mary? 24 A. Yes, sir; at the hospital, University Hospital. 25 Q. Who was another one of his aunts who had had 220 1 surgery? 2 A. She had a quad bypass; yes, sir. 3 Q. And what he was going to do was he was going to 4 take you to his ex-wife's father's house to show you the 5 antiques and things in there? 6 A. We were going -- we would have went out there. 7 My husband and I would have went out there. 8 Q. And met him? 9 A. Yeah. He told me that's where he was living. 10 Q. At that house? 11 A. Yes, sir. 12 Q. On Blevins Gap Road? 13 A. Yes, sir. He said they were fixing up the one 14 on Nottingham Way, whatever it is, to sell. 15 Q. Did you know at that time that Joe had deeded 16 the house on Nottingham Way over to his ex-wife Brenda? 17 A. No, sir. I could not believe that when they 18 told me that. That was not him. But I... 19 Q. Do you know any of the circumstances surrounding 20 that transaction? 21 A. All somebody told me the reason he did it is 22 because he thought that they were going to take his pension 23 and stuff away from him and everything, and that way they 24 wouldn't be able to take the house if he had to pay any money 25 back. 221 1 Q. But when you last talked to him he told you he 2 was fixing that house up to sell? 3 A. Yes, sir; to sell. 4 Q. And did you get the impression or did he tell 5 you that he was going to be living in that home on Blevins Gap 6 Road? 7 A. I got the impression that he was living there 8 then and just coming to the other house to fix it up. 9 Q. Was Brenda in attendance at your mother's 10 funeral? 11 A. She was at the funeral home; she did not come to 12 the funeral. 13 Q. Did Joe go to the funeral? 14 A. Yes, sir. 15 Q. Did you talk to Joe at the funeral? 16 A. At the funeral home? 17 Q. No. At the funeral itself. 18 A. Well, like I said, it was just -- you know, he 19 just kind of like -- see, we had to take Mom all the way to 20 Springfield, Kentucky, where she was going to be buried, so 21 all our relatives out there had fixed up a nice dinner for us 22 afterwards and so we went to the parish hall and had dinner 23 like that, and that's where he was there with us then. 24 Q. And was your mother buried in Springfield, 25 Kentucky? 222 1 A. Yes, sir. 2 Q. Did they have a separate service there? 3 A. She had her mass from St. Rose. 4 Q. And was Joe there? 5 A. Yes, sir. 6 Q. And did you talk with him there at that mass? 7 A. I don't really recall. 8 Q. And then you had this telephone conversation on 9 August 23rd, about August 23rd? 10 A. Yes, sir. 11 Q. How do you fix that date? 12 A. Because my brother-in-law had triple surgery and 13 my other sister's husband -- my brother-in-law called me and 14 he was crying and he said, "Nancy, I brought Mary in for some 15 tests and they're going to do surgery on her." And I said, 16 "Bob, are you by yourself," and he said yes, and I said okay. 17 And I said, "Do you want me," and he said, "Would you, 18 please." So I had one of the guys I worked with drive me down 19 there with him, and so that's -- and so when both of them have 20 it the same day is kind of -- and it was right after that that 21 he called, so the dates were right around then. 22 Q. Did you talk to Joe Wesbecker after August 23rd, 23 1989? 24 A. No. Just that conversation, like I say, when he 25 called me back to see if we were coming and I said maybe 223 1 another time. That's all. 2 Q. In all the time that you knew Joe Wesbecker, did 3 you ever see him with a gun? 4 A. No, sir. 5 Q. Did you ever see him going hunting or going to 6 shooting ranges or anything of that nature? 7 A. No, sir; I did not. 8 Q. How did you learn about this tragedy? 9 A. Well, I was at work and I -- about 10:00 or so I 10 went out in the warehouse and I heard them talking and I 11 didn't know what was going on. And then -- 12 MR. STOPHER: May we approach the bench, Your 13 Honor? 14 JUDGE POTTER: Wait just a second, ma'am. 15 (BENCH DISCUSSION) 16 MR. SMITH: That was my last question, Your 17 Honor. 18 MR. STOPHER: I don't see how this is at all 19 relevant. I thought she was going to say she was there or had 20 some personal involvement but she says somebody told her about 21 it. 22 JUDGE POTTER: If that's your last question I 23 think you can ask it over the objection but... 24 (BENCH DISCUSSION CONCLUDED) 25 MR. SMITH: After you learned of this incident 224 1 by phone -- 2 A. No, sir. My son came to work and told me. 3 Q. Where did you go after your son told you this? 4 A. After my son told me, I got very upset. I 5 called to make sure somebody was with Martha. I called my 6 sister and my brother and they said they were on their way 7 over there to be with Martha. 8 Q. Thank you, Ms. Bryant. 9 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Stopher. 10 Ma'am, do you want to take a brief recess? 11 MS. BRYANT: No. I'm fine. 12 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. 13 14 EXAMINATION ___________ 15 16 BY_MR._STOPHER: __ ___ _______ 17 Q. Ms. Bryant? 18 A. Yes, sir. 19 Q. If at any time you do want to stop and take a 20 break and get a drink of water or whatever, you just let me 21 know. Fair enough? 22 A. Yes, sir. 23 Q. All right. I can assure you I won't ask as many 24 questions, but I do have some, so let me try to get to the 25 point. 225 1 A. Yes, sir. 2 Q. Ms. Bryant, as I understand it, you were perhaps 3 closest in age to Joe Wesbecker of any of his other aunts or 4 uncles? 5 A. My younger sister, we were even. I was about a 6 year and a half older and she was a year and a half younger. 7 Q. So the two of you were closer than anybody? 8 A. In age; yes, sir. 9 Q. Okay. Now, as I understand it, when he was a 10 young man before he was 18 years of age you were not aware of 11 any trouble that he had with the law? 12 A. No, sir; no more than just getting a ticket or 13 something like that. He had a car wreck, but as far as actual 14 trouble with the law, I don't. 15 Q. And if I understand correctly, after he got 16 married you and he still remained close. I think you used the 17 words "as close as a brother and sister could be"? 18 A. Yes, sir. As close as I was with the rest of 19 the family. 20 Q. Ms. Bryant, while he was working at Standard 21 Gravure and while he was still on the job there, would he call 22 you from time to time and talk to you about his work? 23 A. He had called, yes. 24 Q. And did he tell you that he hated work at 25 Standard Gravure? 226 1 A. No, sir. He told me that he was worried about 2 the chemicals they were using, basically, and that was... 3 Q. What did he tell you about the chemicals that 4 they were using? 5 A. He just told me that he was worried about the 6 tetracycline (sic) or some kind of chemical they used. That's 7 all. 8 Q. Did he tell you why he was worried about it? 9 A. No, sir. He just said that he had asked the guy 10 from OSHA or somebody and they told him, and they never really 11 got back and gave him any answers at all. 12 Q. He told you he went to OSHA to try to get 13 some -- 14 A. At a meeting he had there. And he asked the man 15 from OSHA about it and they said they would get back with him 16 and let him know, and he never did get back with him. 17 Q. Didn't he tell you that he was very, very 18 terrified about the chemicals that they were using and the ink 19 that they were using at Standard Gravure? 20 A. No, sir; he never told me that. 21 Q. Ms. Bryant, do you remember giving your 22 deposition under oath? 23 A. Yes, sir. I'm trying to do the best I can. 24 Q. I understand, ma'am. Let me refer to that and 25 see if it brings back your memory. You gave this testimony 227 1 under oath on December 3, 1992? 2 A. Yes, sir. 3 Q. And on Page 33, let me ask you if you gave these 4 answers, or this answer to a question. Line 13: "During the 5 period of time that he was going through a divorce with Sue, 6 did he ever mention to you how he was doing at work at 7 Standard Gravure? 8 "Answer: I knew he was having trouble at 9 Standard Gravure. I do not know when it started, but I do 10 know that he was very, very terrified about the machine they 11 were -- well, the ink or something they were using in the 12 machines at the time, tetracycline or something like that. I 13 don't know. He told me that he had written to Washington and 14 every place trying to get information on them and that 15 Standard Gravure wouldn't help him and neither would OSHA." 16 Do you remember giving that answer, Ms. Bryant? 17 A. That's just basically in a way what I just said 18 except that I didn't say that he hated his job. 19 Q. Well, let me refer you to another page, then, 20 Page 50, Line 15: "What did he tell you in the late 1980s 21 about work? 22 "Answer: That he hated it. 23 "Question: Did he tell you why he hated it? 24 "Answer: He said they had a machine and he 25 hated to work on it, and he said he thought they were trying 228 1 to get rid of him and that's about it. 2 "Question: Did he tell you what the machine 3 was? 4 "No, sir. But I just assumed what we heard at 5 the inquests, it was that one machine that drove him up a 6 wall." 7 A. The folder, which I learned later. 8 Q. Yes, ma'am. He did tell you that he hated work? 9 A. He was not working then. Yes. He hated the 10 company for what they had done to him, yes. 11 Q. Yes, ma'am. He told you that, didn't he? 12 A. I guess -- I don't know if he ever said it 13 actually those words or not. Yes, I knew he was very unhappy 14 with it because they wouldn't give him any answers. 15 Q. He didn't like the chemicals in the inks, he 16 didn't like working on the folder, and he felt that they 17 didn't give him answers; is that true? 18 A. Yes, sir. 19 Q. Mrs. Bryant, is it also true that he stopped 20 speaking to his own mother, Martha Wesbecker? 21 A. Yes, sir. 22 Q. And did he ever explain to you why he refused to 23 speak to his own mother? 24 A. I was told by my sister. 25 Q. He never disclosed to you why he cut her off 229 1 like that? 2 A. No, sir. I never did ask. 3 Q. He never disclosed to you why he cut her off 4 like that? 5 A. No, sir. 6 Q. You had to hear about it from someone else? 7 A. I asked about it, yes, to someone else. 8 Q. As close as you and he were, he didn't discuss 9 it with you nor you with him? 10 A. No, sir. 11 Q. Do you know how long he went without speaking to 12 his own mother? 13 A. I don't know because I heard that he did speak 14 to her once, so I don't really know, sir. 15 Q. You heard that he spoke to her one time? 16 A. Once or twice. That's all I know. 17 Q. Ms. Bryant, as close as you and he were, did he 18 ever tell you that he had been in Our Lady of Peace Hospital? 19 A. No, sir; he did not. 20 Q. Did he ever tell you that he had attempted 21 suicide? 22 A. No, sir; he did not. 23 Q. Did he confide in you about his problems with 24 Kevin? 25 A. The only thing he told me was about the 230 1 insurance claim and that he wanted Kevin to have the surgery 2 to correct his back and Kevin didn't want to do it. Don't 3 know if he was afraid or what. 4 Q. Did he tell you what he did to Kevin because of 5 that disagreement? 6 A. What, cut him out of his money or what? 7 Q. Did he tell you that? 8 A. No, sir, but I figured it out. 9 Q. Did Joe Wesbecker ever tell you what he did to 10 retaliate against Kevin for dropping out of school? 11 A. Not that I can recall, sir. 12 MR. SMITH: Object to the use of the word 13 retaliation, Your Honor. 14 JUDGE POTTER: Sustained. 15 Q. Did Joe Wesbecker stop speaking to his oldest 16 son, Kevin? 17 A. For a while, yes. 18 Q. Do you know how long he went without ever 19 talking to him? 20 A. No, sir; I don't. 21 Q. Ms. Bryant, did Joe Wesbecker talk to you about 22 his mental illness? 23 A. No, sir; I don't believe he did. 24 Q. He never confided in you as to what his problems 25 were and what he was doing about it or attempting to do about 231 1 it? 2 A. No, sir; not that I can recall. 3 Q. Do you know who he did confide in? 4 A. No, sir; I don't. 5 Q. You would have thought, I assume, from what 6 you've told us today that it might have been you? 7 A. No, sir. 8 Q. Ms. Bryant, just a couple of other questions. 9 If I understand correctly, on the last occasion that you 10 talked with him by telephone, I think you told us the precise 11 date was August 23, 19 -- 12 A. Around then, yes, sir. Around then, because my 13 sister had the bypass surgery that day, I believe. 14 Q. All right. So it might have been within a day 15 or two? 16 A. It might have been a day after or so. 17 Q. All right. In any event, about the third week 18 of August, 1989. 19 A. Toward the end of August; yes, sir. 20 Q. He called you? 21 A. Yes, sir. 22 Q. And he invited you to come to Brenda Wesbecker's 23 father's place on Blevins Gap Road; is that accurate? 24 A. Yes, sir. He called it the estate. 25 Q. And he told you that he was fixing up or 232 1 painting the house on Nottoway Circle in order to sell it; am 2 I right? 3 A. Yes, sir. 4 Q. Ms. Bryant, did he tell you then that he had 5 deeded that house to Brenda almost a year earlier? 6 A. No, sir. I did not know that until later on. 7 Q. September 27, 1988, he deeded it to her. 8 A. I did not know that, sir, not at that time. 9 Q. Did he tell you where he was going to go, where 10 he was going to live when Brenda sold the house on Nottoway 11 that she then owned? 12 A. He was living with Brenda at the time right 13 then, as far as I was concerned. 14 Q. You thought he was going to continue living with 15 Brenda? 16 A. Yes, sir. 17 Q. I take it he didn't specifically tell you that 18 one way or the other; that's just an assumption? 19 A. Well, yes, sir; it is an assumption. 20 Q. All right. Ms. Bryant, during the last two to 21 three years of his life do you have any recollection as to 22 approximately how many times you saw him? 23 A. Just like I said, basically holidays that he 24 came out to my sister's house or whenever; that was about it. 25 And we saw him when my mother passed away that same year. 233 1 Q. All right. Thank you, Ms. Bryant. 2 JUDGE POTTER: Anything else, Mr. Smith? 3 4 FURTHER_EXAMINATION _______ ___________ 5 6 BY_MR._SMITH: __ ___ _____ 7 Q. Ms. Bryant, when Mr. Wesbecker and you met at 8 your mother's funeral, did you know that Joe was on -- off 9 work? 10 A. That he hadn't been working? 11 Q. Yes, ma'am. 12 A. Yes, sir; I did. 13 Q. And did you know the reason that he had been -- 14 was off work? 15 A. Yes, sir. They said because of his health. 16 Q. And what was your understanding of the nature of 17 his health problem? 18 A. I don't know what you mean. 19 Q. Was it related to depression or stress? 20 A. I'm not sure which way. I just know that he was 21 off because of his health and that he was under a doctor's 22 care. 23 Q. And did you know he was under a psychiatrist's 24 care? 25 A. I found out later. 234 1 Q. Did you know that the psychiatrist who was 2 treating him on that day, August 9th, I believe it was, was 3 Doctor Lee Coleman? 4 A. No, sir; I did not know. 5 MR. STOPHER: Objection, Your Honor. That's a 6 mischaracterization. 7 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. She's answered she doesn't 8 know. 9 MR. STOPHER: Okay. 10 Q. Did you know any of the medications that Mr. 11 Wesbecker was taking? 12 A. No, sir. 13 Q. Did you know that after the day that your 14 mother's funeral occurred that you talked to Mr. Wesbecker, 15 the next day -- 16 MR. STOPHER: Objection. 17 JUDGE POTTER: Wait just a second. Approach the 18 bench. 19 (BENCH DISCUSSION) 20 JUDGE POTTER: What's your question going to be? 21 MR. SMITH: Did you know that the next day he 22 was prescribed Prozac. 23 MR. STOPHER: She's already said she didn't know 24 what medications he was on, and the only purpose is just to 25 use the word. 235 1 MR. SMITH: I will stop at that question. 2 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. 3 (BENCH DISCUSSION CONCLUDED) 4 Q. Did you know, Ms. Bryant, that that next day Joe 5 Wesbecker was prescribed Prozac by Doctor Coleman? 6 A. No, sir. 7 Q. That's all I have. Thank you, Ms. Bryant. 8 JUDGE POTTER: Thank you, Ms. Bryant. 9 Mr. Smith, you don't have a half-hour witness in 10 the bag, do you? 11 MR. SMITH: Beg your pardon? 12 JUDGE POTTER: Have you got somebody that's 13 about a half hour? 14 MR. SMITH: Not in the bag with me, Your Honor. 15 I apologize. 16 JUDGE POTTER: No. That's all right. 17 (BENCH DISCUSSION) 18 JUDGE POTTER: What about Mr. Stein? Are you 19 going to call him? 20 MR. SMITH: He has such a significant brain 21 injury I'm not going to call him. 22 (BENCH DISCUSSION CONCLUDED) 23 JUDGE POTTER: We're going to take the evening 24 recess because sometimes -- I know we can get in a half hour, 25 but if you break in the middle of a witness it's hard to pick 236 1 it up again. I'm going to ask if you-all will come in at 9:30 2 tomorrow morning; there's something that's come up that I know 3 we won't get started until 9:30. I don't know why I'm going 4 to do it, but I'm going to apologize -- I don't have anything 5 to do with it -- but the chiller was a little late in getting 6 started; hopefully we'll keep the chiller up the rest of the 7 day. It's 9:30 tomorrow morning and, obviously, I've told you 8 it's 9:30 on Friday, so that will help you plan the next two 9 days. 10 I'm going to give you my same admonition again. 11 I'll say a lot of things to you-all over and over, and the 12 reason I do it is because it's important that you be reminded 13 and don't forget. 14 Mr. Higgs. Yes, sir? 15 JUROR HIGGS: Are all exhibits going to be 16 entered back here, those big cards, too? 17 JUDGE POTTER: Anything that's marked and 18 introduced as an exhibit, you-all will have it. I know the 19 diagrams for the Standard Gravure, the big ones have been 20 entered as exhibits. There may be some other ones there that 21 I don't know about yet. I'm pretty sure they'll get in 22 sometime during the trial. And when you-all go back to 23 deliberate, you-all will have those with you. 24 JUROR HIGGS: Okay. Thank you. 25 JUDGE POTTER: I can't see everything there, and 237 1 I don't think they've referred to more than one or two of them 2 so far. I suspect you'll get them all before it's over. And 3 anything you see them put a sticker on and say admit this as 4 an exhibit, whatever, you will have it back there when you go 5 to deliberate. 6 Let me give you the same admonition I've given 7 you before and to emphasize the reason I do it so often is 8 because it's important. Do not permit anyone to speak to or 9 communicate with you on any topic connected with this trial, 10 and any attempt to do so should be reported to me. Again, 11 that includes friends, family, not only talking about the 12 trial itself but, as I said, any topic connected with this 13 trial, which would include Prozac or anything else that you 14 think is connected with this trial. Don't let the media or 15 anybody else talk to you about that. Do not discuss it among 16 yourselves and do not form or express opinions about this case 17 until it is finally submitted to you. We'll stand in recess 18 until 9:30 tomorrow morning. 19 (JURORS EXCUSED AT 4:40 P.M.) 20 JUDGE POTTER: Is there anything we need to take 21 up as our evening... No exhibits today so that won't change. 22 MR. SMITH: That's because Ms. Zettler wasn't 23 here this morning. 24 JUDGE POTTER: I was glad to see Ms. Zettler 25 gone this morning and Mr. Myers gone this afternoon. 238 1 Mr. Foley, let me give you this back because I 2 went out to the convenience store and got my own last night, 3 supermarket. 4 MR. SMITH: Did you say 9:30 in the morning, 5 Your Honor? 6 JUDGE POTTER: Yes. That's it. 7 (PROCEEDINGS TERMINATED THIS DATE AT 4:43 P.M.) 8 * * * 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 239 1 STATE OF KENTUCKY )( )( Sct. 2 COUNTY OF JEFFERSON )( 3 I, JULIA K. McBRIDE, Notary Public, State of 4 Kentucky at Large, hereby certify that the foregoing 5 Transcript of the Proceedings was taken at the time and place 6 stated in the caption; that the appearances were as set forth 7 in the caption; that prior to giving testimony the witnesses 8 were first duly sworn; that said testimony was taken down by 9 me in stenographic notes and thereafter reduced under my 10 supervision to the foregoing typewritten pages and that said 11 typewritten transcript is a true, accurate and complete record 12 of my stenographic notes so taken. 13 I further certify that I am not related by blood 14 or marriage to any of the parties hereto and that I have no 15 interest in the outcome of captioned case. 16 My commission as Notary Public expires 17 December 21, 1996. 18 Given under my hand this the__________day of 19 ______________________, 1994, at Louisville, Kentucky. 20 21 22 23 24 _____________________________ 25 NOTARY PUBLIC 240 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25