1 1 NO. 90-CI-06033 JEFFERSON CIRCUIT COURT DIVISION ONE 2 3 4 JOYCE FENTRESS, et al PLAINTIFFS 5 6 VS TRANSCRIPT_OF_THE_PROCEEDINGS __________ __ ___ ___________ 7 8 9 SHEA COMMUNICATIONS, et al DEFENDANTS 10 11 * * * 12 13 14 FRIDAY, NOVEMBER 18, 1994 15 VOLUME XXXIX 16 17 * * * 18 19 20 21 _____________________________________________________________ REPORTER: JULIA K. McBRIDE 22 Coulter, Shay, McBride & Rice 1221 Starks Building 23 455 South Fourth Avenue Louisville, Kentucky 40202 24 (502) 582-1627 FAX: (502) 587-6299 25 2 1 2 I_N_D_E_X _ _ _ _ _ 3 Hearing In Chambers on Deposition Objections............. 4 4 WITNESS: JAMES_THOMAS_WESBECKER _______ _____ ______ _________ 5 By Mr. Stopher........................................... 23 6 By Mr. Smith.............................................117 By Mr. Stopher...........................................151 7 By Mr. Smith.............................................152 8 * * * 9 Hearing in Chambers......................................156 Reporter's Certificate...................................161 10 * * * 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 3 1 2 A_P_P_E_A_R_A_N_C_E_S _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ 3 4 FOR THE PLAINTIFFS: 5 PAUL L. SMITH Suite 745 6 Campbell Center II 8150 North Central Expressway 7 Dallas, Texas 75206 8 NANCY ZETTLER 1405 West Norwell Lane 9 Schaumburg, Illinois 60193 10 IRVIN D. FOLEY Rubin, Hays & Foley 11 300 North, First Trust Centre Louisville, Kentucky 40202 12 FOR THE DEFENDANT: 13 EDWARD H. STOPHER 14 Boehl, Stopher & Graves 2300 Providian Center 15 Louisville, Kentucky 40202 16 JOE C. FREEMAN, JR. LAWRENCE J. MYERS 17 Freeman & Hawkins 4000 One Peachtree Center 18 303 Peachtree Street, N.E. Atlanta, Georgia 30308 19 20 * * * 21 22 23 24 25 4 1 The Transcript of the Proceedings, taken before 2 The Honorable John Potter in the Multipurpose Courtroom, Old 3 Jail Office Building, Louisville, Kentucky, commencing on 4 Friday, November 18, 1994, at approximately 7:35 A.M., said 5 proceedings occurred as follows: 6 7 * * * 8 9 (HEARING IN CHAMBERS) 10 JUDGE POTTER: Who is Mary McCarty? 11 MR. MYERS: Aunt. 12 MS. ZETTLER: She's an aunt of Joseph Wesbecker. 13 JUDGE POTTER: And why are we doing her 14 deposition? 15 MS. ZETTLER: She's dead, Judge. 16 JUDGE POTTER: Oh, okay. 17 MS. ZETTLER: This has been done for a while. 18 So they have proved that she's dead. 19 MR. MYERS: This is the obituary. 20 MS. ZETTLER: That's the obituary. 21 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. So they have proved that 22 she is still a resident of Louisville but -- 23 MR. MYERS: But, nonetheless, legally 24 unavailable. 25 MS. ZETTLER: Like if she were in Chicago she 5 1 would be able to vote, but other than that, nothing. 2 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. And this is more along the 3 line of the ex-wives and the family-history type? 4 MS. ZETTLER: Yeah. 5 MR. MYERS: Yes. From his younger years. 6 MS. ZETTLER: Yeah. I'd just like to remind the 7 Court at this time that Doctor Greist, the Defendant's own 8 expert, testified -- 9 JUDGE POTTER: Said that nothing before 1980 10 makes any difference. 11 MS. ZETTLER: Right. 12 JUDGE POTTER: The jury may be smarter than 13 Doctor Greist; who knows. 14 MS. ZETTLER: Well, if they can't tie it up, 15 it's irrelevant, Judge, and it's prejudicial to bring this -- 16 you'll see this kind of stuff. It's prejudicial to bring it 17 in if it's not causally connected. 18 JUDGE POTTER: Well, you know, I heard Doctor 19 Greist say that, and I thought about at the time, well, I'm 20 going to hear an argument that any evidence before 1980 is not 21 relevant; however, juries are human beings. They can judge a 22 person's life without Doctor Greist, I mean, and Doctor Greist 23 may not know it all. The jury may hear some of this and find 24 that some of it is relevant. So, let's go. 25 Oh, read for completeness. Okay. I couldn't 6 1 imagine why you were objecting to that. All right. That's 2 sustained. Is this a video or a reader? 3 MS. ZETTLER: It's a reader, Judge. 4 MR. MYERS: Reader. 5 JUDGE POTTER: Martha is the -- 6 MS. ZETTLER: Martha is Joe's mother. 7 JUDGE POTTER: Nancy's -- 8 MR. MYERS: Daughter. 9 MS. ZETTLER: That's his grandmother. 10 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Nancy is the grandmother. 11 MS. ZETTLER: Right. Martha is Joseph's mother. 12 JUDGE POTTER: So Mary McCarty has to be 13 Martha's sister or something like that. 14 JUDGE POTTER: Ms. Zettler, will you look at 21, 15 because -- 16 MS. ZETTLER: I think it spills over into the 17 first four lines on 22. I just noticed that myself. 18 MR. MYERS: 1 to 4? 19 MS. ZETTLER: Yeah. 20 JUDGE POTTER: I'm going to sustain 19, 20 and 21 the new addition of 22. 22 MS. ZETTLER: Okay. So what about 21, all of 23 it? 24 JUDGE POTTER: I'm sorry. Yeah. 21. Because 25 basically what we're doing is bad-mouthing his mother; right? 7 1 MS. ZETTLER: Uh-huh. 2 MR. MYERS: I'd ask the Court to reconsider 3 Page 19, Lines 9 through 11, and Lines 20 through 22, which 4 are direct testimony; there's no question that they're not. 5 JUDGE POTTER: 9 through 11, and what? 6 MR. MYERS: 20 through 22. 7 JUDGE POTTER: Are we talking about the same 8 Ms. Wesbecker? 9 MS. ZETTLER: No. That's the problem, Judge. I 10 mean, this is bouncing all over the place. 11 JUDGE POTTER: Wait. Wait. Wait. Let me see. 12 Because Nancy is a Montgomery; right? 13 MS. ZETTLER: Right. 14 MR. MYERS: Yes. 15 JUDGE POTTER: And who was the one that was 16 taken out of the house? 17 MR. MYERS: Joe's paternal grandmother, 18 Grandmother Wesbecker. 19 MS. ZETTLER: Right. Yeah. Paternal. 20 JUDGE POTTER: All right. I will leave in -- 21 I'm going to sustain it except 19, Lines 9 through 11, and 22 Lines 20 through 22. 23 MR. MYERS: Thank you, sir. 24 JUDGE POTTER: All right. 29. 25 MR. MYERS: That's okay. 29 is fine. 8 1 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. 34. 2 MR. MYERS: Judge, on this next string of 3 objections, I would just like to say that the objection that a 4 question is better asked of another witness is not an 5 objection. 6 JUDGE POTTER: That's not an objection; I agree 7 with that. Neither is self-serving, neither is a lot of 8 things. 9 MS. ZETTLER: If you're going to ask about a 10 subject and you have somebody available, if you don't ask it 11 when the person's available and you're using rank hearsay 12 instead -- 13 JUDGE POTTER: Well, now, that's hearsay. 14 That's a different issue. 15 MS. ZETTLER: Okay. I'm justy -- that's the 16 context I'm trying to put it in. 17 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. I'm going to sustain 34, 18 35 and 36, except 34, Line 6, through 35, Line 4. And what 19 basically is cut out is all the personal description of her 20 conduct during the deposition. I think she can testify about 21 the uncle disciplining him. 22 MS. ZETTLER: Okay. Wait. 23 JUDGE POTTER: So the first part stays in. 24 MS. ZETTLER: So you're overruling 34 is 25 basically what you're saying? 9 1 JUDGE POTTER: Yes. That's a good way to put 2 it. I'm overruling 34. 3 MR. MYERS: And 1 through 4 on 35. 4 MS. ZETTLER: Right. Can I take a quick look at 5 that, Judge? 6 JUDGE POTTER: Did John Montgomery testify? 7 MS. ZETTLER: Yeah, he did. 8 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. I'm overruling 37 and 38. 9 MS. ZETTLER: Again, our objection to that is 10 hearsay. The witness -- the man who was allegedly directly 11 involved was here in court, and instead they're choosing to 12 get it in through this witness, or try to. 13 MR. MYERS: We'll read the designations on 38, 14 39 and 40. 15 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. I'm going to sustain 42 16 and 43. 17 MS. ZETTLER: 44, 45 and 46 kind of go together, 18 Judge. 19 JUDGE POTTER: Uh-huh. All right. Let me talk 20 about 44 through 46. I mean, my reading of it is that she 21 wasn't there when they dragged Granny out of the house. 22 MS. ZETTLER: You mean Martha? Neither Martha 23 or this woman were there; right. 24 MR. MYERS: Well, she says here on Page 44 at 25 Line 16 through 18, "I recall that he was there at the time." 10 1 MS. ZETTLER: But that doesn't mean that this 2 woman was there, Larry; that's what he's asking. 3 JUDGE POTTER: Right. From my reading of it, I 4 mean, haven't we established through somebody else that Granny 5 went to the funny farm and Joe went to the Home of the 6 Innocents while they got things sorted out? 7 MS. ZETTLER: It's come in before. 8 MR. MYERS: The fact has, but the circumstances 9 under which it occurred I think were ruled out in an earlier 10 deposition. 11 MS. ZETTLER: No. This stuff all came in 12 through Martha, Judge. 13 JUDGE POTTER: Wait just a second. I'm going to 14 sustain 44 through 46 and overrule 47 and 48. 15 MS. ZETTLER: So they get to read about Martha 16 Wesbecker's love life, huh? 17 JUDGE POTTER: Uh-huh. 18 MS. ZETTLER: Lovely. 19 JUDGE POTTER: I'm overruling 49, the first 49; 20 let me look at the second part. I'll overrule 49 and 50. 21 MS. ZETTLER: Judge, the reason that's in there 22 is because they've already tried to establish there was a 23 major power struggle between Nancy Montgomery and Martha. And 24 all this thing about did he come back to live with us, you 25 know, I mean -- this woman is going on and on and on about how 11 1 this woman is a spoiled brat and she's, you know -- 2 JUDGE POTTER: I think the spoiled brat is out. 3 MR. MYERS: That got ruled out. 4 MS. ZETTLER: Yeah. But then she's, pardon my 5 French, trying to catch a guy and all this other stuff, and 6 it's like -- this is just irrelevant to the testimony that's 7 come in about the relationship between Martha and Nancy 8 Montgomery. 9 JUDGE POTTER: How much of this is being read, 10 out of curiosity? Because I'm telling you, if you read more 11 than 60 pages of this deposition, you can just throw it away. 12 Because the jury has heard so much. I mean, everybody agrees 13 this man had an unbelievably dysfunctional family. 14 MR. MYERS: Judge, let's see. We're reading 15 portions of about 65 pages. 16 JUDGE POTTER: All right. Okay. That's around 17 an hour, so maybe they can take it. 18 JUDGE POTTER: I'm going to sustain 51 just 19 simply because I can't find any relevance to it. 53. 53 and 20 54 is overruled. 55. 21 MS. ZETTLER: Okay. And for the record, our 22 objections on those are that 53 and 54, their subject matter 23 is irrelevant and it's hearsay and calls for speculation and 24 actually is speculation. 25 JUDGE POTTER: 55, 56 and 57 are overruled. 60. 12 1 MS. ZETTLER: Again, this is all rank hearsay. 2 JUDGE POTTER: Well, that's one of the few times 3 she's there. She goes out to the orphanage and she sits with 4 them. 5 MS. ZETTLER: But this thing about Martha never 6 let anything stop her with what she wanted to do, whether or 7 not he resented her. I mean, it's all hearsay, Judge. It's 8 all rank hearsay. 9 JUDGE POTTER: She was a sister and living in 10 the family. 11 MS. ZETTLER: That doesn't mean it's not 12 hearsay, because the hearsay rule is to keep this stuff out. 13 JUDGE POTTER: Well... 14 MR. MYERS: On 60, Judge, all I'll say is if the 15 only objection is leading, I sort of stand on our position 16 earlier about leading questions. 17 MS. ZETTLER: Well, it ties in with 61; it's 18 leading, hearsay and calls for speculation. 19 JUDGE POTTER: 61 and 62 are overruled. 20 JUDGE POTTER: I'm treating 62 as a separate, 21 new problem. 22 MS. ZETTLER: Okay. So 60 and 61? 23 JUDGE POTTER: 62 is overruled. Okay. I'm 24 going to sustain 63 and 64. 25 MR. MYERS: Judge, just for the record, what is 13 1 the basis of the Court's ruling, because this incident is 2 something she knows about. When asked do you recall, she said 3 yes. 4 JUDGE POTTER: Well, no, she really doesn't. I 5 mean, she doesn't know. She's just telling what she heard in 6 the family and she says something. It's hearsay: "And they 7 said he was involved?" 8 "This is what I hear. I don't know anything 9 about it." 67 is sustained. 10 MR. MYERS: We'll read what they've designated 11 on 71. 12 JUDGE POTTER: All right. 73. All right. 73 13 through 75 is sustained except 73, Lines 2 through 11; Page 14 74, Lines 5 through 12. Now, knowing what I'm going to do, 15 Ms. Zettler, you may want to reconsider just letting the whole 16 thing in rather than the two bullets that she actually knows 17 something about so that the jury gets a -- I mean, I just... 18 How about 84 and 86. Will you give her those, Mr. Myers? 19 MR. MYERS: Yes, sir. 20 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Mr. Myers, 90 and 91, 21 you'd be hard pressed to say that's not hearsay. 22 MR. MYERS: On 91, Judge, would the Court 23 reconsider Page 91, Lines 4 through 10, simply where he went 24 when they divorced? 25 MS. ZETTLER: She's saying, "I don't know, 14 1 I don't know, I don't know." 2 JUDGE POTTER: "I don't know." 3 MS. ZETTLER: So that's still sustained, Judge? 4 JUDGE POTTER: Yeah. 5 MR. MYERS: And on 92, I'll read 20 through 25. 6 MS. ZETTLER: No. That's only there if I lose 7 on the objection. 8 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Are you sure you've got 9 the right page, Ms. Zettler, on 92? 10 MS. ZETTLER: Oh, I think it's -- well, shoot, 11 what happened here. 12 MR. MYERS: We were going to read starting at 13 Page 91, Line 25. 14 MS. ZETTLER: I think it should be, Judge, 15 Page 91, Line 25, through -- and they cut it off in the middle 16 of the answer here. That's part of the problem that happened 17 with that. 18 JUDGE POTTER: Oh, okay. 19 MR. MYERS: So that series should start 91, 20 Line 25? 21 MS. ZETTLER: Yeah. 22 JUDGE POTTER: I mean, we're dealing with a lady 23 here that's fairly confused; is that right? 24 MS. ZETTLER: Uh-huh. 25 MR. MYERS: She was pretty elderly. 15 1 JUDGE POTTER: Elderly. I understand. Well, 2 I'm going to let in the 92, which means read the rest of 92 3 for completeness. 4 MS. ZETTLER: So you're leaving in, first, 5 Line 25 of 91? 6 JUDGE POTTER: Uh-huh. 7 MS. ZETTLER: Okya. So you're overruling my 8 objection on 91 and 92, and you're letting in -- 9 JUDGE POTTER: It's the last line on 91. 10 MS. ZETTLER: Right. 11 JUDGE POTTER: Right. And then 92, 1 through 12 19, and then they have to read 20 through 25 and 1 through 6. 13 MR. MYERS: And we'll read 1 through 6. All 14 right. 15 JUDGE POTTER: I mean, you read it, it doesn't 16 make sense. But maybe in the context, she's testifying about 17 what she saw personally, and maybe the jury will be able to 18 make some sense out of it when they piece it together with 19 what other stuff they've heard. 20 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. I'm going to overrule 95 21 and sustain the read for completeness. 22 MS. ZETTLER: On all three of those pages? 23 JUDGE POTTER: I haven't read them. I just 24 assume we're dribbling along with the same topic. 25 MR. MYERS: Yeah. We'll go ahead and read all 16 1 those, Judge. 2 JUDGE POTTER: All right. 98. I'm going to 3 sustain 98. 4 MR. MYERS: We'll read the 99 and 100. 5 JUDGE POTTER: When do you stop reading, Mr. 6 Myers? 7 MR. MYERS: Near the end, 125. 8 MS. ZETTLER: There's only one read for 9 completeness after that. 10 JUDGE POTTER: 101. We spend a lot of time in 11 the fish place, don't we? 12 MS. ZETTLER: Uh-huh. 13 JUDGE POTTER: Oh. Is 101 through 103 all 14 fish-place completeness? 15 MS. ZETTLER: Yeah, Judge. 16 JUDGE POTTER: All right. I'll sustain all 17 those. 18 JUDGE POTTER: Let me just ask you, there is no 19 way he just got out of Our Lady of Peace a month before this 20 thing happened; is that right? 21 MS. ZETTLER: No. 22 MR. MYERS: No. 23 MS. ZETTLER: Two years. 24 JUDGE POTTER: But she somehow has got it a 25 month before the shooting? 17 1 MS. ZETTLER: Right. 2 JUDGE POTTER: All right. The jury will be able 3 to figure it out. Okay. I'm going to sustain the 106 and the 4 107. 5 You know what these depositions bring up. I 6 know in South Carolina they have a procedure where you take 7 depositions for trial and you take depositions for discovery. 8 I don't know what de bene esse means, which one that is, but 9 they have depositions de bene esse. And, you know, it really 10 brings up that in discovery depositions you have to be a lot 11 more alert than you think you normally are because you don't 12 know how that deposition is going to play into the thing 13 leading and hearsaywise and no foundation. 14 And one of the best ones I ever had is kind of a 15 trick thing. One time the defendant took the plaintiff's 16 doctor and took him through a beautiful deposition all about 17 the illness and found out everything but did not have him 18 introduce his credentials at the very beginning; just started 19 out, you're Mr. Schwartz tell me what you saw. And then when 20 the plaintiffs started to read it at trial they said, "Well, 21 Judge, this man, it hasn't proven he's qualified." 22 MR. MYERS: Or licensed. 23 JUDGE POTTER: Yeah. I beat on them and they 24 got around it, but, I mean, it was the kind of thing, you 25 know, a foundation had not been laid for his testimony. Well, 18 1 let me get -- we're getting close to the end here. I'm going 2 to overrule the 116 through 117. And then, I guess, 3 Mr. Myers, do you have any problem with all these read for 4 completeness? 5 MR. MYERS: Let me just look real quick. 6 (Reviews document) No, sir, Judge. 7 JUDGE POTTER: All right. So that's 117 through 8 120. 9 MR. MYERS: Yes, sir. And I'll read the last 10 thing, too, while we're talking about read for completeness, 11 so the only thing are these three hearsay objections. 12 JUDGE POTTER: Let's see what we've got. All 13 right. Let's look at 123 through 125. I'm going to kind of 14 do the same thing, Ms. Zettler. I'm going to let some of it 15 in and, Mr. Myers, you may reconsider whether you want it in 16 after I get through cutting, so let me tell you what I'm going 17 to cut. 18 MR. MYERS: All right. 19 JUDGE POTTER: Ruling on Ms. Zettler's objection 20 of hearsay I'm going to keep everything out except Line -- 21 Page 123, 13 through 15: "That's the last time you saw him? 22 "From I can remember, yes, that's the last 23 time." So that's just a question and an answer. 24 And then on Page 124: "Did he ever say to 25 anybody, to your knowledge, that he was picked on at Standard 19 1 Gravure? 2 "I know that there were some people that he 3 didn't get along with, but I never heard him say he was picked 4 on," down through Line 24, "One name I have heard was Rocky." 5 MS. ZETTLER: So lines 14 through 24 are in? 6 JUDGE POTTER: Are in. And the one question on 7 the other page. The rest of it she's reciting family history 8 she's heard. 9 MS. ZETTLER: Okay. So 125 is overruled? 10 MR. MYERS: I think he sustained the 123 through 11 125, and then read 13 through 15 on 123, and 14 through 24 on 12 124. 13 JUDGE POTTER: All right. Let's go. 123, read 14 13 through 15; and on 124, read 14 through 24. 15 MR. MYERS: Yes, sir. 16 JUDGE POTTER: All right. 17 MR. MYERS: Okay. 18 MS. ZETTLER: And you've okayed the read for 19 completeness; right? 20 MR. MYERS: Yeah, that last one. 21 MS. ZETTLER: Okay. 22 MR. MYERS: Thank you, Judge. 23 MS. ZETTLER: Thanks, Judge. 24 (HEARING IN CHAMBERS CONCLUDED; THE 25 FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS OCCURRED IN 20 1 OPEN COURT; BENCH DISCUSSION) 2 MR. SMITH: Ten minutes ago I was delivered this 3 list of 27 names as witnesses designated for the week 4 following Thanksgiving by Mr. Stopher. We feel that there 5 should be some breakdown there of the the witnesses to be 6 called Monday and Tuesday. 7 MR. STOPHER: Sure. That's no problem. 8 MR. SMITH: So we can have those to take with 9 us. 10 MR. STOPHER: I was just told to get the whole 11 week, so that's what I did. 12 JUDGE POTTER: We will deal with that after we 13 let the jury go today. 14 MR. SMITH: Next, I've been advised that Mr. 15 Stopher plans to introduce these photographs with Jimmy 16 Wesbecker. Jimmy Wesbecker testified that he had never seen 17 any of these weapons prior to September 14th, 1989, had no 18 knowledge of their existence. 19 JUDGE POTTER: First of all, aren't these 20 already in evidence, these photographs? 21 MR. STOPHER: Yes. Right. 22 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Mr. Stopher -- how -- 23 first of all, if there are any in evidence, Mr. Smith, I don't 24 know if there are any objections. 25 MR. STOPHER: I just want to show them to him. 21 1 If he saw the weapons, the ammunition, any boxes or the duffel 2 bag and ask him to look at it. 3 JUDGE POTTER: It's already in evidence. 4 MR. SMITH: No. He wants to parade these 5 weapons in front of the jury again. It's inflammatory and 6 prejudicial to do that. This is the photograph. 7 JUDGE POTTER: Well, certain photographs are 8 already in evidence, so that's water over the dam. You know, 9 you'll just have to check your list of which ones are in 10 evidence. 11 MR. SMITH: If that were the case, the document 12 where Doctor Heiligenstein said this is reasonably related to 13 the use of Prozac, these instances of violent aggressive and 14 examine everybody about them. It's not just a matter of 15 whether it's introduced into evidence; obviously, the Witness 16 has to be qualified and what he's speaking about has to be 17 material and relevant to any issue this jury has knowledge of. 18 JUDGE POTTER: I just really see this as a 19 one-question issue to absolutely confirm that he has not seen 20 these things. I just don't see it as an impermissible 21 question, Mr. Smith. This is his son. He -- they were 22 getting back together or something, weren't they? 23 MR. STOPHER: This one was always close, Judge. 24 JUDGE POTTER: Well, anyway, it's his son. He 25 can confirm, "Have you seen anything? No. I'm going to show 22 1 you some pictures; are you sure? Absolutely sure." And then 2 we go on. 3 MR. STOPHER: Judge, one other item with regard 4 to this Witness. I would like to call him as an adverse 5 party. He is the personal representative of his father's 6 estate and they have a lawsuit that is pending against us. 7 JUDGE POTTER: The way we handle that is the 8 only thing having him as an adverse party does is allow you to 9 ask leading questions. If you start asking questions that Mr. 10 Smith feels are objectionable, he'll object and then I'll rule 11 on it at that time. 12 (BENCH DISCUSSION CONCLUDED) 13 SHERIFF CECIL: All rise. The Honorable Judge 14 John Potter is now presiding. All jurors are present. Court 15 is now in session. 16 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Please be seated. 17 Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, did anybody 18 have any difficulty abiding by the admonition not to let 19 anybody communicate with you on this case over the last 20 recess? Since you're going on vacation, I won't pick on 21 anybody to call on. 22 Mr. Stopher, do you want to call your next 23 witness? 24 MR. STOPHER: Yes, Your Honor. We call James 25 Wesbecker. 23 1 JUDGE POTTER: Sir, if you'd step around here 2 and raise your right hand. 3 4 JAMES WESBECKER, after first being duly sworn, 5 was examined and testified as follows: 6 7 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Would you walk around, 8 have a seat in the witness box, state your name loudly and 9 clearly for the jury after you have a seat and then spell it 10 for me, please. 11 MR. WESBECKER: My full name is James Thomas 12 Wesbecker. The last name is W-E-S-B-E-C-K-E-R. 13 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. And answer Mr. Stopher's 14 questions. 15 16 EXAMINATION ___________ 17 18 BY_MR._STOPHER: __ ___ _______ 19 Q. Mr. Wesbecker, where do you presently live, sir? 20 A. At 7509 Manslick Road. 21 Q. And how old are you, sir? 22 A. Twenty-seven years old. 23 Q. And do you live with your grandmother at that 24 address, sir? 25 A. No, sir; I do not. 24 1 Q. Do you live with your mother at that address? 2 A. Yes, sir; I do. 3 Q. And that's Sue? 4 A. Sue Chesser. 5 Q. Sue Chesser. Are you employed at the present 6 time, sir? 7 A. Not at this present time, no. 8 Q. Mr. Wesbecker, who was your father, sir? 9 A. Joseph Thomas Wesbecker. 10 Q. And what is your date of birth, sir? 11 A. 5-9-67. 12 Q. And you have an older brother named Kevin; am I 13 correct, sir? 14 A. Yes, sir. 15 Q. Now, let me first of all get some background 16 information with regard to you, sir. Did you go to high 17 school in this area, sir? 18 A. Yes, I did. 19 Q. And did you graduate from high school? 20 A. Yes, sir; I did. 21 Q. And where was that? 22 A. Bishop David, which is now Holy Cross. 23 Q. And about when did you graduate there, sir? 24 A. 1985. 25 Q. And after graduation from high school, what did 25 1 you do, sir? 2 A. I attended college at JCC for two years and then 3 transferred to University of Louisville. 4 Q. And did you graduate from U of L, sir? 5 A. Yes, I did. 6 Q. And about when was that? 7 A. That was December of 1989. 8 Q. And then what did you do, sir? 9 A. I continued my postgraduate studies then. I 10 went to North Carolina State University to work on my 11 Master's. 12 Q. And what Master's Degree were you working on, 13 sir? 14 A. Master's of economics. 15 Q. And did you complete that? 16 A. No, sir. 17 Q. When was the last work -- what time period was 18 it that you last worked at N.C. State on a Master's Degree? 19 A. 1992. 20 Q. And approximately -- is that a two-year program, 21 sir? 22 A. Yes, sir; it is. 23 Q. And about how much of that two-year Master's 24 program did you complete? 25 A. Half of it. 26 1 Q. One year, approximately? 2 A. Yes, sir. 3 Q. Okay. Now, after 1992, have you been in school 4 or have you been employed or some of both? 5 A. Well, I started working while in school and then 6 I just transferred to work full time. 7 Q. And where did you transfer to? 8 A. I was working at Service Merchandise. 9 Q. All right. And was that in Raleigh, North 10 Carolina; is that where N.C. State is? 11 A. Well, yes; that's where that is. But I was 12 staying in Cary, North Carolina; that's about ten miles 13 outside of Raleigh. 14 Q. And that's where you were working for Service 15 Merchandise? 16 A. Yes, sir. 17 Q. And then where did you transfer with Service 18 Merchandise? 19 A. After Service Merchandise, I worked at Radio 20 Shack for about a three-month period, and then after that I 21 eventually just came on home. I just wanted to be home. 22 Q. So you came home or back to Louisville about 23 when, sir? 24 A. About August of '93. 25 Q. So you've been here a year and three months, I 27 1 guess, approximately since then; am I right? 2 A. About that; yes, sir. 3 Q. During that period of time, sir, have you been 4 employed? 5 A. Yes, sir. 6 Q. And where have you worked in that period of 7 time? 8 A. Most of the time it was at Little Caesar's Pizza 9 as assistant manager, and at the same time for a period of 10 four months I was also employed at Blockbuster Video as 11 assistant manager. 12 Q. Both of those were here in Louisville? 13 A. Yes, sir. 14 Q. And where were you last employed, sir? 15 A. Blockbuster Video and Little Caesar's at the 16 same time. 17 Q. Both at the same time? 18 A. Yes, sir. 19 Q. And about when was that that you last worked at 20 those two places? 21 A. Basically about two months ago. 22 Q. And since then you've been unemployed; am I 23 correct? 24 A. Yes, sir. 25 Q. Okay. Now, sir, let me go back and talk with 28 1 you primarily about your father, Joseph Wesbecker. Let me 2 begin, sir, if I understand correctly, in the -- you were born 3 in 1967, and in the 1970s you lived as a young boy in a home 4 with your father, Joseph Wesbecker; your mother, Sue 5 Wesbecker; your older brother, Kevin. Am I right, sir? 6 A. Yes, sir. 7 Q. And during that period of time your father was 8 employed, in the 1970s at least, at Standard Gravure; am I 9 right about that, sir? 10 A. Yes, sir. 11 Q. And if I understand correctly from the 12 deposition testimony that you've given before, that your 13 father worked long hours at Standard Gravure; is that still 14 accurate, sir? 15 A. Yes, sir. 16 Q. And that primarily during the week you would not 17 see him much, but you'd see him on the weekends. Is that 18 still accurate, sir? 19 A. Yes, sir. 20 Q. Mr. Wesbecker, as I understand it, your father 21 would sometimes be teased, particularly at work. True? 22 A. Yes, sir. 23 Q. And when he would be teased, he would frequently 24 withdraw, get away from the people that were teasing him and 25 sulk; is that accurate? 29 1 A. Yes, sir. Getting away from them, yes. 2 Q. He was not able to laugh at himself when he 3 would be teased; is that true, sir? 4 A. Yes. That's pretty accurate. 5 Q. If I understand correctly, that at some time in 6 the late 1970s, there was marital difficulty between your 7 father and your mother that resulted in divorce; am I correct 8 about that, sir? 9 A. Yes, sir. 10 Q. And do you recall what the difficulty was, at 11 least as far as you understood it, as approximately a 9- or 12 10- or 11-year-old boy, in that time period? 13 A. Basically, the issue of my mom wanting to go 14 back to work. 15 Q. The issue of what, sir? 16 A. My mother wanting to go back to work. 17 Q. What was that issue, sir? 18 A. My father thought that he made enough money that 19 she should stay at home with us, but she wanted her own 20 career, wanted to get out. 21 Q. And about the time of that divorce, sir, did you 22 notice that your father was becoming withdrawn? 23 A. No, sir. 24 Q. Let me direct your attention, sir, to the 25 deposition that you gave in this case on September 30, 1992, 30 1 sir. You were represented at that deposition by Mr. Vittitow, 2 Mr. Wilson and Mr. Helman, all three attorneys; correct, sir? 3 A. Yes, sir. 4 Q. Let me direct your attention, sir, to Page 79 of 5 that deposition. Let me read these questions and these 6 answers to you, sir, and see if this refreshes your 7 recollection. Line 18 on Page 79, "Well, he -- meaning your 8 father -- had left the home with a wife and two sons, and now 9 he's living in an apartment alone on Rockford Lane and is 10 working nights and taking care of his two sons after school; 11 right? 12 "Answer: Yes, sir. 13 "Question: Did you ever know of anything else 14 he was doing during those years -- that year and a half or so? 15 "Answer: Well, no, sir. 16 "Question: Did he have any interests at that 17 time? 18 "Answer: At the time, I didn't really know. It 19 was kind of hard to get to really spend a lot of time with 20 him. 21 "Question: I've heard some people say that 22 during that period of time that he became withdrawn, not 23 talkative and not outgoing. Would you agree with that? 24 "Answer: That's probably a good statement." 25 Is that still accurate, sir? 31 1 A. As far as relating with other people, yes, but 2 with me he was never really withdrawn. 3 Q. But with regard to other people, you did notice 4 a change in him where he became withdrawn about that time, 5 sir? 6 A. Yes, sir. 7 Q. Now, about that same time, sir, was there some 8 difficulty or disagreement between your father and your 9 brother, Kevin? 10 A. Yes, sir. 11 Q. What was that about, sir? 12 A. For one, it was about my brother dropping out of 13 school and not telling my father. Two, it was just having 14 totally different ideas. My father wanted him to do things 15 his way and my brother was going to do them his way 16 regardless, and they just drifted apart. 17 Q. Were there any disagreements about his back 18 condition involving the scoliosis and surgery on that back 19 condition? 20 A. Well, there wasn't a disagreement. It was more 21 that my father wanted him to have the operation, he thought he 22 needed it, and my brother didn't want to take the risk. 23 Q. Were there any disagreements about your 24 brother's girlfriend who ultimately became his wife? 25 A. Yes. My father thought that maybe he could do 32 1 better. 2 Q. How did -- when your father had these 3 disagreements with your brother, how did he deal with it, sir? 4 A. How did my father deal with it? 5 Q. Yes, sir. 6 A. Well, a lot of times he would just talk to me 7 about it, ask me what my brother was thinking. Other than 8 that, he didn't try to force the issue with my brother. He 9 just said, "If that's the way you want to live it, then I'll 10 let you see for yourself." 11 Q. Did he stop speaking to him? 12 A. Yeah. At a certain point he did. 13 Q. How long did that last, sir, approximately? 14 A. Several years. 15 Q. Several years? Did they ever really -- during 16 that period of time have any contact with each other? 17 A. Brief contact. 18 Q. Now, sir, at about that same period of time, 19 about the time of the divorce, did you begin to have some 20 problems that affected your father? 21 A. Yes, sir. 22 Q. And about that period of time, sir, did you 23 begin to act out in a certain way? 24 A. Yes, sir. 25 Q. Did that affect your father, sir? 33 1 A. Of course. 2 Q. How did you observe that it affected him? 3 A. He was more concerned about me. He wanted to 4 know what he could do to help. 5 Q. And what did he do to help you, sir? 6 A. He tried to find names of different doctors that 7 he could take me to. He tried to find different either 8 articles or books or something that he could read and become 9 more knowledgeable about the situation because he didn't know 10 anything about it, and he felt that there was needed 11 something. 12 Q. Did you go to court from time to time after that 13 again, sir? 14 A. Yes, sir. 15 Q. And would he go with you? 16 A. Yes, sir. 17 Q. Would there be social workers and court- 18 appointed counselors that would attempt to deal with the 19 situation in terms of the whole family in the early 1980s? 20 A. There might have been one social worker, but I 21 never had a court-appointed attorney, I don't think. 22 Q. I'm sorry. If I said court-appointed attorney, 23 I apologize. I meant court-appointed counselor or caseworker 24 is perhaps a better description. 25 A. No, sir. 34 1 Q. There was one social worker that attempted to 2 work with the family? 3 A. I think so. 4 Q. And did he work with her? 5 A. To a certain point. 6 Q. Did he get along all right with her? 7 A. At first he did. But then she started coming up 8 with her own ideas of what the problem was and he thought it 9 was a waste of time and he wanted some real help. 10 Q. Did he express to you what effect all of this 11 was having on him? 12 A. Yes, sir; he did. 13 Q. What did he say about it, sir? 14 A. Well, he told me that it was putting stress on 15 him and he didn't understand why and he wanted to know if 16 maybe he had -- you know, that he had done something or that I 17 was trying to get back at him, at first. So it just kind of 18 really brought us closer together in a way. 19 Q. And in those days, sir, what would you observe 20 about him that indicated that he was under stress? 21 A. Well, I observed maybe that he wouldn't have the 22 patience that he normally did. 23 Q. He wouldn't have what, sir? 24 A. Patience. 25 Q. What else did you observe? 35 1 A. We're still talking about the time around the 2 divorce? 3 Q. Yes, sir, and in the early 1980s. 4 A. Okay. Other than lack of patience, I don't 5 really remember anything else that I really noticed. 6 Q. In the early 1980s, you think the two of you 7 became closer because of this -- because of the problems that 8 you were having? 9 A. Not because of the problems that I was having, 10 but because we both decided or he started talking to me and we 11 opened up our relationship a lot better. 12 Q. Did he ever get angry or upset about your 13 instances of acting out? 14 A. Yes, sir. 15 Q. And when he would get angry and upset, what did 16 you observe about him? 17 A. I observed him kind of basically preaching to 18 me, saying how this is affecting your whole life and do you 19 realize this. 20 Q. Did -- the times in there in the early 1980s, 21 did he tell you how this was affecting him personally? 22 A. As far as the early 1980s, basically it was that 23 it was stressful. He was now with Brenda and she had two 24 children and it was, I guess, just basically hard to 25 understand with another family joining your own family. 36 1 Q. Were you attempting to live with him from time 2 to time or to visit him overnight when Brenda's daughter and 3 Brenda were in the household? 4 A. Yes, sir. He wanted me to see him on the 5 weekends, and I do remember one summer that I spent the whole 6 summer with him. 7 Q. And did that put some stress on him in terms of 8 your history of acting out? 9 A. Yes, sir. 10 Q. Did it create friction between him and Brenda 11 and Melissa, the little girl? 12 A. Yes, sir. 13 Q. Mr. Wesbecker, prior to approximately 1985, the 14 mid 1980s, did he ever mention to you any other effects that 15 your acting out was having on him? 16 A. No, sir. 17 Q. During those years, sir, did he ever mention to 18 you that he had been under the care of a psychiatrist? 19 A. Towards, like I say, 1985, he had mentioned 20 that, you know, he had seen a doctor, but it was just 21 basically because going through a divorce and stuff like that. 22 Q. Did he tell you that he was having psychiatric 23 difficulties or problems with a mental illness or disorder? 24 A. Not at that time; no, sir. 25 Q. Did he mention to you, sir, that he had been in 37 1 a hospital or hospitals in connection with psychiatric 2 problems? 3 A. Not at that time; no, sir. 4 Q. Did he mention to you any history of suicide 5 attempts prior to 1985? 6 A. No, sir. 7 Q. Did you ever know that he had been in a 8 psychiatric hospital prior to 1985? 9 A. No, sir; I didn't. 10 Q. If those things had occurred, sir, then I take 11 it he did not confide in you about those subjects; is that 12 true? 13 A. That's true. 14 Q. Mr. Wesbecker, in the 1980s, in the middle part 15 of the 1980s, as I understand it, your problems, instead of 16 getting better or getting resolved, if anything, seemed to 17 escalate; is that an accurate statement, sir? 18 A. Yes, sir. 19 Q. During the middle 1980s, were you arrested from 20 time to time, sir? 21 A. Yes, sir. 22 Q. And after the arrests then there would be court 23 appearances where your father might be required or would 24 appear on your behalf; is that true? 25 A. Yes, sir. 38 1 Q. During the 1980s, sir, if I understand 2 correctly, you sometimes lived with your mother, Sue Chesser; 3 is that accurate? 4 A. Yes, sir. 5 Q. You sometimes lived with your grandmother, 6 Martha Wesbecker? 7 A. Yes. I lived with her once. 8 Q. At one time you lived with Sue Chesser's 9 parents; am I right about that? 10 A. Yes, sir. 11 Q. At another time you lived with Joe Wesbecker, 12 your father; is that true, sir? 13 A. Yes, sir. 14 Q. On other occasions you were in the Oneida 15 Baptist Institute to try to help deal with your problem; is 16 that true, sir? 17 A. Yes, sir. 18 Q. You were in Our Lady of Peace Hospital; correct, 19 sir? 20 A. Yes, sir. 21 Q. You were at Norton's Hospital in the psychiatric 22 ward; correct, sir? 23 A. Yes, sir. 24 Q. You were at Pleasant Grove Hospital; is that 25 accurate, sir? 39 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Children's Treatment Center; correct? 3 A. Yes, sir. 4 Q. Ten Broeck Hospital; correct? 5 A. Yes, sir. 6 Q. And Boys Haven; is that true, sir? 7 A. Yes, sir. 8 Q. During that period of time, sir, did your father 9 confide in you as to what the effect of these various 10 instances was on his personal mental health? 11 A. No, sir; he did not. 12 Q. He didn't mention anything to you about 13 difficulties with a mental illness or about treatment for a 14 mental illness? 15 A. No, sir. 16 Q. During the 1980s, sir, did your father discuss 17 with you his work at Standard Gravure? 18 A. Occasionally. 19 Q. What kinds of things would he say to you about 20 his work at Standard Gravure in the 1980s? 21 A. He mentioned about safety, about the noise, the 22 decibel level of the noise, and he had called OSHA about that. 23 I knew he was always looking to see if there was somebody 24 there or some policy that was maybe hurting the worker that, 25 you know, he was always trying to help somebody else there, 40 1 basically. 2 Q. You say he discussed safety. Did I understand 3 you correctly, sir? 4 A. Yes, sir. 5 Q. What did he tell you about safety at Standard 6 Gravure in the 1980s? 7 A. That basically with the noise level that a lot 8 of different men had some reduction in their hearing level. 9 Q. Including himself? 10 A. Yes, sir. 11 Q. And did he claim that Standard Gravure had done 12 that to him? 13 A. Yes, sir. 14 Q. Did you notice that he had a hearing difficulty, 15 sir? 16 A. Yes, sir. 17 Q. Did he claim that he had reported -- or I think 18 you said called OSHA. Did I understand you correctly? 19 A. Yes, sir. 20 Q. Did he tell you who called OSHA? 21 A. I believe it was himself. 22 Q. Did he tell you what happened when he reported 23 or called OSHA? 24 A. Well, from what I remember, basically a new 25 standard of earplugs was issued. I think there was pads of 41 1 some type put around some of the metal so that it wouldn't be 2 the noise from the friction, different elements of that 3 nature. 4 Q. You mentioned that he was looking for, I thought 5 you said, somebody or someone that could help the workers; did 6 I understand you correctly? 7 A. Yes, sir. 8 Q. What kind of help did he want? 9 A. He wanted to make sure that if people were being 10 taken advantage of or being hurt, you know, would have 11 somebody there to help them. 12 Q. Who did he try to get to be that somebody or 13 that someone to help? 14 A. Like I said, he called OSHA. 15 Q. Did he ever call anybody else? 16 A. Not that I remember him mentioning. 17 Q. Did he ever mention to you stress or pressure on 18 the job at Standard Gravure? 19 Q. Well, he always said that there was a certain 20 amount of workload you had to get out and that's why he wanted 21 me to get a good education and not have to work like him. 22 Q. He wanted you to get a good education so that 23 you wouldn't have to do his work? 24 A. Yes, sir. 25 Q. And what did he say about the work or about the 42 1 stress in connection with that work to you in the 1980s, sir? 2 A. Only that it takes away time from your family; 3 it makes you labor a little more than what you really need to, 4 and sometimes you maybe have to just scrape to get by. And if 5 you had a good education you wouldn't have to do all that and 6 you'd be with your family. 7 Q. Did he ever discuss with you, sir, his attitude 8 at Standard Gravure concerning particular job assignments? 9 A. Later on he did, yes. 10 Q. Was that still in the later 1980s that he began 11 to discuss that with you? 12 A. Yes, sir. 13 Q. Well, let me jump ahead then, sir, while I'm on 14 the subject of work conditions. In the later 1980s, what did 15 he tell you about Standard Gravure? 16 A. He told me basically that he was made to do the 17 folder, a job that he found to be a little bit more 18 pressuring, and when he'd asked to be transferred or to do 19 another job that they wouldn't let him. 20 Q. That what, sir? 21 A. That they would not let him. 22 Q. Did he tell you what the folder -- why he wanted 23 to be transferred or to be off of the folder? 24 A. Basically because he said the way the lines, the 25 books and the binding, that you have to run a low waste, and 43 1 if you have a high amount of waste they get on you. And he 2 said he didn't feel like his eyes was good enough, since he 3 was on medication, to run that machine. 4 Q. Did he tell you what would happen to him if he 5 did do that job? 6 A. No, sir. He mainly just told me if he ran it 7 and if he ran like a large amount of waste how, like, someone 8 would get on him or, you know, he'd hear a lecture or 9 something. 10 Q. Did he tell you how that affected him? 11 A. Well, he just said that it just upset him. 12 Q. Did he ever discuss with you toluene or xylene, 13 xylo, solvents on the job at Standard Gravure? 14 A. Toluene, he did. 15 Q. What did he have to say about that, sir? 16 A. That he wasn't sure about the chemical itself, 17 but he thought there may be a way that it can be absorbed 18 through the skin and cause nerve deterioration. 19 Q. What did he say about that with regard to 20 himself? 21 A. He thought it may be why he was feeling, I don't 22 know, maybe a little nervous or that he thought maybe that's 23 what affected his family, such as myself. 24 Q. What did he say about how it affected you? 25 A. Well, he thought that since he had worked there 44 1 for years that it could have been in his bloodstream and, 2 therefore, that's why I came out the way I did. 3 Q. Did he work with those chemicals in the printing 4 industry when he worked at Fawcett-Haynes before he went to 5 Standard Gravure? 6 A. I didn't think he did, but he acted like as if 7 it had been for a while. 8 Q. What other effects did he think the solvents or 9 toluene had on the family? 10 A. Well, that was about all, because he said he had 11 to do some research and find out for sure. 12 Q. You said that he claimed or thought that maybe 13 it could cause nervousness in him. Did I understand you 14 correctly? 15 A. Yes, sir. 16 Q. What did you observe about him in the 1980s that 17 indicated that he had any nervousness? 18 A. Well, just sometimes that he may not be able to 19 sit still, became a little bit more impatient. 20 Q. When he couldn't sit still, what would he do? 21 A. Basically he just wanted to do something. He 22 wanted to get out or he wanted to get with me and let's go out 23 to eat, let's do something. He just didn't want to sit in the 24 house. 25 Q. Did you ever see him pace? 45 1 A. No, sir. 2 Q. Never saw him pace? 3 A. No, sir. 4 Q. Did you ever see him agitated? 5 A. Yes, sir. 6 Q. When he was agitated, what would he do, sir? 7 A. Well, it was like that last week I saw him and I 8 told him I needed some -- 9 Q. I want to talk about the 1980s, if you would. 10 MR. SMITH: Excuse me, Your Honor. Can he 11 complete his answer? He asked him when he saw him agitated 12 what would he do, and the Witness is explaining that. 13 MR. STOPHER: I'll get to the last week, I 14 assure you, sir. I'm primarily interested in the moment, if 15 you'd answer the question, with regard to the 1980s, while he 16 was still -- 17 MR. SMITH: 1989 is the 1980s. 18 Q. -- while he was still working at Standard 19 Gravure. Are we squared away, sir? 20 A. Yes, sir. 21 Q. When you would see him and he was agitated while 22 he was still working at Standard Gravure, what did you 23 observe? 24 A. While he was still working at Standard Gravure I 25 don't remember him being agitated. 46 1 Q. You don't recall a single instance of him being 2 agitated? 3 A. No, sir. 4 Q. Did you ever see him when he worked at Standard 5 Gravure when he claimed to have sleep difficulties? 6 A. Yes, sir. 7 Q. What did he tell you about sleep difficulties 8 while he was still working at Standard Gravure? 9 A. The only thing he mentioned was that sometimes 10 he just felt like he couldn't get to sleep. 11 Q. Did he tell you why or what the cause was for 12 that, at least as far as he thought? 13 A. No, sir. He just told me he was going to talk 14 to his doctor and see about medication. 15 Q. In the 1980s, did he -- while he was still 16 working at Standard Gravure, did he give you any other 17 instances of why he thought toluene might be making him 18 nervous or causing him to have nervousness? 19 A. No, sir. 20 Q. Do you think he confided truthfully to you about 21 what was going on in his life while he worked at Standard 22 Gravure? 23 MR. SMITH: Object. That calls for the Witness 24 to speculate, Your Honor. 25 JUDGE POTTER: Overruled. 47 1 A. Yes, sir. I think that he basically told me 2 what he thought I could handle. 3 Q. Did he tell you, sir, that he attempted suicide? 4 A. No, sir. 5 Q. Did he tell you that he was in Our Lady of Peace 6 Hospital for approximately 30 days in April of 1987? 7 A. Later he did, yes. 8 Q. Did he tell you at the time that he was in the 9 hospital for that month, sir, where he was? 10 A. No, sir. 11 Q. Did he tell you that he had attempted suicide? 12 A. No, sir. 13 Q. Did you know during that 30 days that he was in 14 Our Lady of Peace Hospital, where he was or what had become of 15 him? 16 A. Yes, sir. I found out towards the middle part 17 of it. 18 Q. And how did you find out about it, sir? 19 A. Because I kept calling and trying to get ahold 20 of him through Brenda and she finally told me. 21 Q. Did he ever discuss it with you, sir? 22 A. No, sir. 23 Q. Never told you about it? 24 A. Not at that time. 25 Q. Did he tell you at that time, sir, what his 48 1 issues were at work and how he felt about the bosses and about 2 management and others at Standard Gravure? 3 A. Well, only person he really mentioned was Jim 4 Lucas, which he had frequent contact with. There was a few 5 others, I don't remember names, but they used to still get 6 together every now and then. 7 Q. Did he ever mention to you, sir, at or about the 8 time that he was at Our Lady of Peace Hospital in April of 9 1987, any plans that he had with regard to Standard Gravure? 10 A. No, sir. 11 Q. Did he ever mention to you Mike Shea, Don 12 McCall, Paula Warman, Donald Cox, Jim Popham, Bill McKeown? 13 Did he ever make any statements to you about any of those 14 people? 15 A. No, sir. 16 Q. During the 1980s, sir, I take it that without 17 reading the list again of the various places that you lived, 18 that there would be times that you would not see him for 19 substantial periods. Is that accurate, sir? 20 A. Yes, sir. I said, "Yes, sir." 21 Q. I'm sorry. I didn't hear you, sir. During that 22 period of time, sir, did you ever hear your father talk about 23 Doctor Beasley? 24 A. Yes, sir. 25 Q. And what kinds of things did he have to say 49 1 about Doctor Beasley? 2 A. Just basically that it was Brenda's ex-husband 3 and he couldn't believe a doctor wouldn't take care of his 4 kids. 5 Q. What else did he have to say about Doctor 6 Beasley? 7 A. That he thought it was time that Doctor Beasley 8 start taking care of his own kids and he wasn't going to keep 9 paying their way. 10 Q. Did he ever say anything else about Doctor 11 Beasley to you? 12 A. Not other than that; no, sir. 13 Q. Did he talk about Doctor Beasley's daughter and 14 Brenda's daughter, Melissa? 15 A. Occasionally. 16 Q. How did he get along with her, sir? 17 A. At first, he got along real well. Then later, 18 they kind of drifted apart. 19 Q. And when they drifted apart, what happened? 20 A. She had gotten older and was going out more and 21 would come in and wake him up. And Dad didn't like to be 22 waked up in the middle of the night because he may not go back 23 to sleep, so he got kind of irritated with that. 24 Q. And what did he do when he got irritated with 25 Melissa Beasley? 50 1 A. He told Brenda that she needed to deal with her 2 daughter. 3 Q. And what did he say she needed to do in order to 4 deal with her daughter? 5 A. I don't know exactly what he said needed to be 6 done, but he just said she needed to take care of it. 7 Q. Did he ever stop speaking to Melissa Beasley? 8 A. Yes, sir. 9 Q. How long did that last? 10 A. I think it lasted maybe a year or two. 11 Q. Were they living together in the same household? 12 A. Part of that time; yes, sir. 13 Q. And during that period of time, would he speak 14 to her at all? 15 A. He would say hi and acknowledge her, yes, but 16 she wouldn't respond, so that would be the extent of it. 17 Q. Was there ever a time there, sir, when he 18 wouldn't eat Thanksgiving dinner in the same room with her? 19 A. Yes, sir. That's because I was there with him. 20 We were visiting, and we'd always watch the football games 21 down in the kind of den area and the rest of the family ate 22 upstairs on the table. 23 Q. And it was because he wanted to watch football 24 and not because he didn't want to speak to her or see her; is 25 that what you're telling us, sir? 51 1 A. Yes, sir. 2 Q. During that period of time, sir, was there 3 friction between Doctor Beasley and your father about your 4 being in the same household with his daughter? 5 A. Not between Doctor Beasley and my father but 6 between Doctor Beasley and Brenda; yes, sir. 7 Q. Did that have an effect on your father? 8 A. Yes, sir; it did. 9 Q. And how did he react to that? 10 A. He thought that it was ludicrous coming from a 11 man who wouldn't take care of his own kids. 12 Q. To be concerned about his daughter being in the 13 same household with you? 14 A. Yes, sir. 15 Q. During that period of time, sir, in the 1980s, 16 while he was still working at Standard Gravure, what kind of a 17 relationship did your father have with his own mother, Martha? 18 A. Well, it wasn't really close, but he wasn't 19 totally where they weren't talking at all. 20 Q. Were there ever any periods of time that he 21 wouldn't speak to his own mother? 22 A. Sometimes. 23 Q. And what would cause those sometimes to occur? 24 A. Basically, when she would say something or try 25 to tell everybody how great she was towards him or something 52 1 growing up, and he didn't really feel that way, so he would 2 just tell her that, you know, he didn't want to hear it. 3 Q. And then he would stop speaking to her? 4 A. Yes, sir. 5 Q. During the 1980s, when he was still working at 6 Standard Gravure, would there be times that he would go for 7 long periods of time and not speak to his own mother? 8 A. I wouldn't say it was years, but it could be 9 months, yes. 10 Q. During the 1980s, did he ever talk with you 11 about the union at Standard Gravure? 12 A. A little. 13 Q. What did he say to you about the union? 14 A. Well, towards the mid 1980s, he just mentioned 15 how it was good to get things done, but sometimes it was hard 16 to push things through. 17 Q. What sorts of things was he having a hard time 18 pushing through? 19 A. Well, it wasn't himself. It was just different 20 packages when they had new contracts. He thought it was more, 21 like, kind of political. 22 Q. With regard to the union, did he get frustrated 23 with the union? 24 A. Not that I recall. 25 Q. Let me again refer you, sir, to the deposition 53 1 that you gave in this case and see if this refreshes your 2 memory. This was your testimony under oath on September 30, 3 1992. 4 A. Yes, sir. 5 Q. Page 210, Line 18: "Did your father tell you in 6 the early part of 1987 that he was frustrated with the union? 7 "Answer: Yes. 8 "Question: Why? 9 "Answer: Just basically because they weren't 10 doing their job. 11 "Question: What job were they not doing? 12 "Answer: Trying to represent his grievance to 13 the management. 14 "Question: And what were they not doing? 15 "Answer: Taking his grievance, that was not 16 working on the folder, and talking to the management and 17 trying to get to where they won't force Dad to work it every 18 day. 19 "Question: And did he tell you why he didn't 20 want to work the folder in early 1987? 21 "Answer: Yes. It was the same reasons as 22 before, basically. 23 "Question: Nervousness? 24 "Answer: No. It was just that they wanted 25 pinpoint accuracy and he didn't think with his eyes where it 54 1 was a little blurry and stuff that he could do that, you 2 know." 3 Did you give those answers, sir? 4 A. Yes, sir. 5 Q. And when he was frustrated with the union for 6 not taking his side against management, what else did he tell 7 you about that, sir? 8 A. Well, concerning his grievance, he just didn't 9 understand why that they wouldn't really help him out, and he 10 had to go to outside agencies or something to help him as far 11 as, like, civil rights or something like that. But he just 12 told me he didn't understand why the union wouldn't push it 13 through. 14 Q. Did he tell you that he complained to the union 15 about not helping him out? 16 A. Yes, sir. 17 Q. And what was their response, according to him? 18 A. I think it was something that they thought they 19 did the best they could or something. 20 Q. During those days, sir, did he like to be 21 teased? 22 A. No, sir. 23 Q. How would he react when he would be teased and 24 even when you would tease him from time to time? 25 A. He would kind of change the subject quickly or 55 1 maybe even, you know, kind of get away and find something else 2 to do. 3 Q. Did he ever to you, sir, discuss in the late 4 1980s, while he was still working at Standard Gravure, any 5 interest at all in guns or in firearms? 6 A. No, sir. Never. 7 Q. Did he ever while he worked at Standard Gravure 8 tell you that he had ever had any interest in guns or in 9 firearms? 10 A. No, sir. 11 Q. Had you ever seen any guns or firearms in his 12 possession or in the home or in his vehicle while he worked at 13 Standard Gravure? 14 A. No, sir. 15 Q. In the 1980s, sir, his grandmother, Nancy 16 Montgomery, was alive up until August of 1989; correct, sir? 17 A. Yes, sir. 18 Q. What was his relationship with her during the 19 1980s? 20 A. He was very close. 21 Q. And when you say he was very close, how was he 22 close to her? 23 A. Basically, he would take her to have her hair 24 done or he would get her lunch or dinner, take her over to his 25 house, let her stay the whole evening with him, and they would 56 1 just talk. And he had fond memories of her as far as growing 2 up and how she taught him the value of a dollar and things 3 like that. 4 Q. The value of a what, sir? 5 A. Value of a dollar. 6 Q. Value of a dollar? 7 A. Yes, sir. 8 Q. Did he remain close to her up until her death? 9 A. Yes, sir. 10 Q. How often would he have contact with her in the 11 last two or three years of her life? 12 A. I would say on the average, probably about once 13 a week. 14 Q. Now, sir, it's my understanding that your father 15 stopped working at Standard Gravure. Do you recall that, sir? 16 A. Yes, sir. 17 Q. Do you recall when that was? 18 A. '86 or '87, I believe. 19 Q. And did he ever tell you about that, sir? 20 A. Basically that he had gotten disability. 21 Q. What did he tell you about what disability he 22 got? 23 A. He told me it was basically due to mental 24 illness. 25 Q. Basically due to what, sir? 57 1 A. His mental illness. 2 Q. Did he tell you that at the time that he stopped 3 working? 4 A. No, sir. He told me it was basically due to 5 nerves is what he said. 6 Q. At the time that he stopped working, he told you 7 that it was due to nerves? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And when he told you that it was because of his 10 nerves, did he tell you anything more about what caused it at 11 work? 12 A. No, sir. He didn't really go into an 13 explanation or cause. He just wanted to make sure that I 14 understood his situation. 15 Q. Did he tell you that it related to the pressure 16 of working on the folder? 17 A. Yes, sir. That was mentioned. 18 Q. Did he tell you what the pressure of working on 19 the folder or the possibility of working on the folder would 20 do to him? 21 A. He didn't tell me exactly what it would do to 22 him, but it was just that he said he couldn't handle it. 23 Q. And did he tell you that that's why he wanted 24 off of the job? 25 A. Yes, sir. 58 1 Q. After he stopped working, sir, did he ever get 2 another job? 3 A. No, sir. 4 Q. Did he ever try to get another job? 5 A. Not that I know of. 6 Q. When he stopped working, how did he support 7 himself? 8 A. Through disability. He got Social Security 9 disability. 10 Q. And through disability from Standard Gravure? 11 A. I believe so. 12 Q. How would he get those checks? 13 A. They were at work and he'd have to go pick them 14 up. 15 Q. Would you sometimes go with him to Standard 16 Gravure to pick up those checks? 17 A. Yes, sir. 18 Q. And when you went with him, how would he get 19 into the building at Standard Gravure? 20 A. Well, there's a couple different ways we'd go 21 sometimes. Sometimes we'd go right in through the guard shack 22 right there, and he knew the guy and wave and we'd go right 23 in, or if he had other business and we just kind of wanted to 24 go in and out, we'd just kind of go in the side door on Sixth 25 Street and kind of go that way, that way he would meet less 59 1 people. 2 Q. In that period of time, how often would he go in 3 to pick up those checks? 4 A. Once a week, as far as I know. 5 Q. During that period of time, sir, what was his 6 relationship with Kevin after he stopped working? 7 A. Well, things weren't totally healed, but he had 8 at least started asking me a little bit more about him and if 9 Kevin would be open to a certain solution. 10 Q. In the fall of 1988, and the early winter of 11 1988, did he discuss with you a new will? 12 A. I think so, yes. 13 Q. What did he tell you about a new will and 14 particularly with regard to Kevin? 15 A. Well, that Kevin wouldn't be a part of that 16 will. 17 Q. What was he going to leave to Kevin? 18 A. Nothing. 19 Q. Did he tell you why he didn't want Kevin to get 20 anything? 21 A. He just said he didn't deserve it. 22 Q. Did he tell you why he didn't think his oldest 23 son deserved anything in his will in the winter of 1988? 24 A. He just mentioned how he had been treated by 25 Kevin. 60 1 Q. How did your father think he had been mistreated 2 by Kevin? 3 A. Well, he thought that Kevin lied to him and he 4 had stolen money for school, and he thought he deserved an 5 apology and Kevin wouldn't come around or admit anything. 6 Q. Your father thought that Kevin had lied to him? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Did he tell you what he thought he lied to him 9 about? 10 A. Yes. About school, since he was supposed to be 11 in school and my dad was paying for it, you know, and he 12 was -- kind of thought he lied about that. 13 Q. He thought that his oldest son had stolen money? 14 A. Yes, sir. 15 Q. Did he ever tell you any details about what he 16 thought about that theft? 17 A. No, sir. He didn't have to. 18 Q. Did you know something about it? 19 A. Yes, sir. 20 Q. What did you know about it? 21 A. I knew that Kevin had dropped out of school and 22 he was still telling Dad he was going to go to school and he 23 was still getting full coverage insurance when Dad's insurance 24 wouldn't cover him if he wasn't in school, and he was still 25 getting paid to go. 61 1 Q. And are those the reasons that he told you that 2 he wanted to leave Kevin nothing? 3 A. Basically; yes, sir. 4 Q. Do you recall, sir, in the deposition that you 5 also told me that Kevin had never tried to make up with him? 6 A. Yes, sir. 7 Q. That is, that your father wanted Kevin to 8 reconcile, to make the first move; is that correct, sir? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Your father refused to go to him first and 11 insisted that he come to him first; am I correct? 12 A. Yes, sir. 13 Q. From time to time you would try to get your 14 father to make up with Kevin, wouldn't you? 15 A. Yes, sir. 16 Q. And his response to you was, "He's got to come 17 to me first. I'm not going to him." Is that accurate, sir? 18 A. That's correct. 19 Q. Did your father ever change his position on who 20 ought to make the first move, sir? 21 A. Yes, he did. 22 Q. Let me go ahead now chronologically, if I can, 23 sir. In 1988, your father was not working at Standard 24 Gravure? 25 A. Correct. 62 1 Q. And in the fall of 1988, did your father discuss 2 anything else about the will, or the early winter of 1988, 3 about the new will? 4 A. No, sir. 5 Q. Did he discuss leaving anything to Brenda or not 6 leaving anything to Brenda? 7 A. Well, basically, he said everything was the same 8 except for the house. Instead of putting it in the will, he 9 was going ahead and writing it out to her. 10 Q. He was going to write the house out to her? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Let me show you a copy, sir, of the will, which 13 I've marked as Defendant's Exhibit 383, and ask you if you can 14 identify this. Let me give you this copy, sir. Hang onto 15 that. 16 A. Okay. All right. 17 Q. Can you identify that for us, sir? 18 A. Yes, sir. 19 Q. It's a document that is apparently dated on the 20 second page December 12, 1988, and signed by your father and 21 various other people as witnesses; correct, sir? 22 A. Yes, sir. 23 MR. STOPHER: Your Honor, we move the admission 24 of Defendant's Exhibit 383, and ask that it be distributed to 25 the jury. 63 1 JUDGE POTTER: Be admitted. 2 SHERIFF CECIL: (Hands document to jurors). 3 Q. Mr. Wesbecker, under Article II of this 4 document, it says on the first page, "I leave nothing to my 5 son Joseph Kevin Wesbecker." Correct? 6 A. Yes, sir. 7 Q. In the Article III right under that, it says, "I 8 hereby give and bequeath to my son James Wesbecker any and all 9 money that I have in the bank at the time of my death, 10 including but not limited to certificates of deposit, money 11 market accounts, checking accounts and savings accounts." 12 Correct, sir? 13 A. Yes, sir. 14 Q. It then says, "I hereby give, devise and 15 bequeath to my ex-wife Brenda Wesbecker any and all real 16 estate, household goods and furnishings and vehicles that I 17 own at the time of my death." Correct? 18 A. Yes, sir. 19 Q. And then it says, "I hereby give and bequeath to 20 my son James Wesbecker all of the clothing and jewelry and 21 personal items. I hereby give and bequeath all of the rest of 22 my property to my ex-wife Brenda Wesbecker." Correct sir? 23 A. Yes, sir. 24 Q. And then in Article IV, it specifies that Brenda 25 is supposed to be the executrix of his estate, but if she 64 1 doesn't want to or is unable to serve that you are to be the 2 executor of his estate; correct, sir? 3 A. Yes, sir. 4 Q. Now, sir, if I understand correctly, you are the 5 executor of your father's estate; is that accurate, sir? 6 A. Yes, sir. 7 Q. And as the executor of your father's estate, you 8 have filed a lawsuit against Eli Lilly and Company in 9 connection with his suicide, isn't that true? 10 MR. SMITH: Object to that as being immaterial 11 and irrelevant to this issue. 12 JUDGE POTTER: Overruled. 13 Q. What's the answer, sir? 14 A. I'm sorry. Could you repeat the question? 15 Q. As the executor of your father's estate, you 16 have filed a lawsuit against Eli Lilly and Company in 17 connection with your father's suicide; isn't that true, sir? 18 A. Yes, sir. 19 Q. And that case is still pending, isn't it, sir? 20 A. Yes, sir. 21 Q. Mr. Wesbecker, in connection with the writing 22 the house to Brenda, were the words I think you used, sir, 23 your father told you about that; is that accurate, sir? 24 A. Yes, sir. 25 Q. Did he tell you anything more about why he was 65 1 doing that? 2 A. Yes, sir. He basically didn't want any people 3 squabbling over whatever they thought they deserved at a 4 different time. He thought that she deserved it, and she had 5 two kids and she would need a home. 6 Q. Did he tell you what he paid for that house? 7 A. I do believe it was something like 50,000. 8 Q. Did he tell you what he thought it was worth 9 when he gave it to her? 10 A. At that time I think it was something like 11 75,000 or something. 12 Q. Did he have another house when he deeded that 13 one to her that he owned? 14 A. No, sir. 15 Q. In other words, when he gave her that house, he 16 was then without any real estate or home that he himself 17 owned; is that true, sir? 18 A. Yes, sir. 19 Q. Did your father tell you, sir, after he stopped 20 working at Standard Gravure, that he had arranged for his own 21 cremation? 22 A. Yes, sir. 23 Q. When did he till you about that? 24 A. He told me around '88. 25 Q. Had he already done it when he told you about 66 1 it? 2 A. Yes, sir. 3 Q. He didn't tell you about it in advance? 4 A. No, sir. 5 Q. Did he tell you the type of arrangements that he 6 had made for his cremation? 7 A. Yes, sir; he did. 8 Q. What did he tell you about those arrangements? 9 A. That basically he had already paid for the 10 services at the funeral home for the cremation and for the 11 memorial plots to be put in inside a mausoleum. 12 Q. Did he tell you that the remains of his 13 cremation; that is, the ashes were to be put into a mausoleum? 14 A. That's what I believed at that time; yes, sir. 15 Q. Did he tell you that he had made arrangements 16 that his ashes also be destroyed or consumed because nobody 17 cared anything about him? 18 A. No, sir. 19 Q. In 1988, sir, if I understand correctly, your 20 father was living at 7300 Nottoway; correct? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. He was living there alone; correct, sir? 23 A. Partially, yes. 24 Q. Brenda might be there sometimes? 25 A. She was there a lot, just her children were no 67 1 longer living there. 2 Q. Your father was out of work; right? 3 A. Yes, sir. 4 Q. Your father had arranged for his own cremation; 5 right? 6 A. Yes, sir. 7 Q. He deeded the house to Brenda; right? 8 A. Yes, sir. 9 Q. He had written the new will; right? 10 A. Right. 11 Q. Did he at that time, sir, present some concern 12 to you with his mental illness and all of those other events 13 going on in his life, some concern that maybe he might take 14 his own life, sir? 15 A. No. He didn't mention anything about taking his 16 own life; no, sir. 17 Q. Did he mention anything about taking somebody 18 else's life? 19 A. No, sir. 20 Q. What was he doing, sir? 21 A. As to what? 22 Q. Well, he was out of work; he was there in the 23 home. Did he have any interests? 24 A. Yes, sir. 25 Q. What were his interests? 68 1 A. Well, he still liked going over a lot of my 2 projects as far as stuff in my economics degree I was working 3 on at U of L at the time. He still liked following the stock 4 market. He still liked tinkering with cars occasionally. He 5 was still into home improvement. 6 Q. Didn't he let the -- well, sir, let me back up 7 for just a minute. Any other interests? 8 A. None that I can think of, sir. 9 Q. He was 46 years old at that time; right, sir? 10 A. Yes, sir. 11 Q. Did he discuss with you any plans as to what he 12 was going to do in the future? 13 A. No, sir. He wasn't sure. Mainly he was 14 thinking more about me and graduate school, and he was trying 15 to think about what he was going to be able to do. 16 Q. And was he concerned that he wasn't going to be 17 able to do anything, sir? 18 A. Well, he thought it wasn't that as much as maybe 19 being limited, that once you're on disability they may not let 20 you do as much. 21 Q. Let me direct your attention, sir, to a 22 conversation between yourself and your father in February of 23 1989. Do you recall the conversation, sir? 24 A. Not offhand. 25 Q. You told me in your deposition that it occurred 69 1 the last week of February 1989, and that you went to his home 2 to see him, and it was a Thursday or a Friday and you just 3 happened by. Does that ring a bell with you, sir? 4 A. Is that the topic where we were talking about 5 graduate school and going to visit different campuses and 6 stuff? 7 Q. You talked about graduate school among other 8 things, sir. 9 A. Okay. 10 Q. Do you recall the conversation now? 11 A. Yes, sir. 12 Q. One of the things you talked about was that you 13 wanted him to get back together with Kevin but that he refused 14 to do that until Kevin made the first step; correct, sir? 15 A. Yes, sir. 16 Q. Do you recall in that conversation that you 17 discussed with him the issue of the cost of your going to 18 graduate school; do you remember that? 19 A. Yes, sir. 20 Q. At that time you were at the University of 21 Louisville and you hadn't graduated yet; right? 22 A. Yes, sir. 23 Q. And you wanted to go to a two-year Master's 24 program; right? 25 A. Correct. 70 1 Q. And you and he estimated that it might take two 2 or three years and that with the living cost, the food, the 3 travel, the tuition, the books and everything that it would 4 cost your father between 50 and 60 thousand dollars for you to 5 get that education. Do you recall discussing that with him at 6 that meeting in February of 1989? 7 A. Yes, sir. 8 Q. At that time, sir, did he tell you what sort of 9 disability payments he was getting from Standard Gravure? 10 A. Well, he didn't discuss the exact amount, but he 11 discussed that the amount was far less than what he was making 12 before and he wasn't sure that, you know, that that could be 13 made. 14 Q. He wasn't sure what, sir? 15 A. He wasn't sure that the amount that was needed 16 for graduate school he could come up with it. 17 Q. In other words, that the disability payment was 18 less than what he had been making, if I understand you 19 correctly? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Was it less than what he expected? 22 A. Yes, sir. 23 Q. And was it going to be cut? 24 A. He wasn't sure. 25 Q. Was he concerned about whether or not his 71 1 disability payments would be cut by Standard Gravure? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And was he concerned about how he was going to 4 live himself and pay the 50 to 60 thousand dollars for you to 5 go to graduate school? 6 A. Yes, sir. 7 Q. Was there a disagreement or argument between you 8 and he at that meeting about the cost of graduate school, sir? 9 A. Yes, there was. 10 Q. And he wanted you to go to a state such as North 11 Carolina, live there for a while, become a resident and then 12 enroll in school as a resident of that state for cheaper 13 tuition; correct? 14 A. Correct. 15 Q. And you didn't want to do that, did you, sir? 16 A. No, sir. 17 Q. You wanted to keep going to school straight on 18 after graduation from the University of Louisville; correct? 19 A. Yes, sir. 20 Q. Did your father get upset with that, sir? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And when he got upset, how did he react to you? 23 A. He basically wanted me to explain my logic as to 24 how I came up with my answer since I was wanting the money 25 from him. 72 1 Q. When he became upset, how did he act and behave 2 on that occasion? 3 A. Well, he basically kind of sat back in his chair 4 with a smile on his face really and said, "Can you explain it 5 to me?" 6 Q. Did he ever tell you, sir, that he reported to 7 his psychiatrist at that time or shortly after that that he 8 had had an argument with his son and that he began to have 9 illusions after that argument? 10 A. No, sir. 11 Q. Never mentioned that to you? 12 A. No, sir. 13 Q. At the time of that conversation, sir, in 14 February of 1989, did he tell you how he was going to set it 15 up so that you could have the education that he wanted you to 16 have? 17 A. He said he had a plan that he thought it might 18 work. 19 Q. Did he tell you what that plan was that he 20 thought might work? 21 A. He just said something about maybe being able to 22 set up some type of trust fund or something like that. 23 Q. Did he ever discuss that plan with you again, 24 sir? 25 A. Later he did, yes. 73 1 Q. Well, let me move ahead, then. When did he 2 discuss it later with you and what did he say? 3 A. It was more in the summer. 4 Q. More in the summer of 1989? 5 A. Yes, sir. 6 Q. What did he tell you the plan was, sir? 7 A. Well, I came to him and I told him that I could 8 work full time and just go to school part time, and he didn't 9 want to hear that. He said, "Well, we need to set up some 10 kind of a trust fund where we'd have the money there and let 11 the interest build up to where that would take care of some of 12 the cost, as well." 13 Q. Did that ever happen, sir? 14 A. Not that I was aware of, no. 15 Q. Did he ever discuss that plan with you again as 16 to how he was going to solve the tuition problem? 17 A. Yes, sir. 18 Q. When did he next discuss it with you? 19 A. It was in September. 20 Q. What did he say about the plan in September? 21 A. In September, he said that basically he thought 22 he had covered all angles and that the money would be there in 23 the bank when I needed it. 24 Q. He said he had covered all angles; right? 25 A. Yes, sir. 74 1 Q. Do you recall when in September he told you that 2 he had the plan and had covered all the angles? 3 A. It was the 11th. 4 Q. The 11th of September? 5 A. Yes, sir. 6 Q. How do you happen to remember that, sir? 7 A. Basically because he had just taken me from 8 downtown and I had to get a couple books for a class. And 9 after we had mentioned all that, when he dropped me off we had 10 talked and that's what he said, and then the next day he came 11 back, and he said, "Well, I've got it all set up." 12 Q. Did he tell you how he had it set up 13 specifically? 14 A. No, sir. He didn't go into details or anything. 15 But he said that the money was there, that only I could get 16 it. 17 Q. The next day would have been September the 12th, 18 1989? 19 A. Yes, sir. 20 Q. And he told you that he had now put the plan 21 into action; right? 22 A. Yes, sir. 23 Q. And that the money was there and only you could 24 get it; right? 25 A. Yes, sir. 75 1 Q. And that he had covered all the angles? 2 A. Yes, sir. 3 Q. Let me show you, sir, a copy of a document. Let 4 me show you a copy of a document that has been marked as 5 Defendant's Exhibit 340, sir. Do you recognize that document, 6 Mr. Wesbecker? 7 A. Yes, sir; I do. 8 Q. Would you tell us what it is, sir? 9 A. It's a check from his checking account. 10 Q. And who is the payee? 11 A. Cash. 12 Q. And what is the amount? 13 A. Seventy thousand. 14 Q. And what is the date? 15 A. The 12th. 16 Q. The 12th of September, 1989? 17 A. Yes, sir. 18 MR. STOPHER: Your Honor, we'd move the 19 admission of Defendant's Exhibit 340, and ask that it be 20 published to the jury. 21 JUDGE POTTER: Be admitted. 22 SHERIFF CECIL: (Hands document to jurors). 23 Q. Mr. Wesbecker, in looking at this document, it 24 is a check on the account of Joseph T. Wesbecker, 7300 25 Nottoway Circle, Louisville, Kentucky; correct, sir? 76 1 A. Yes, sir. 2 Q. And in the lower left-hand corner of that 3 document I see some numbers handwritten in there. Do you see 4 those? 5 A. Yes, sir. 6 Q. Would you read those numbers for us, please? 7 A. 407-84-2194. 8 Q. Does that mean anything to you, sir? 9 A. Yes, sir. 10 Q. What does it mean to you? 11 A. That's my Social Security number. 12 Q. It's your Social Security number? 13 A. Yes, sir. 14 Q. On the back side of this check, and if you'll 15 turn the exhibit over, sir, there's a deposit stamp on 16 September 12, 1989, to a particular account number at the L&N 17 Federal Credit Union; correct, sir? 18 A. Yes, sir. 19 Q. Does that mean anything to you? 20 A. Yes, sir. 21 Q. What does it mean to you? 22 A. That's the bank I had at that time. 23 Q. That's where you kept your checking account? 24 A. My savings; yes, sir. 25 Q. Your savings account? Was this $70,000 77 1 deposited into your savings account on September 12, 1989, by 2 your father? 3 A. Yes, sir. 4 Q. Mr. Wesbecker, before that, had your father 5 asked you where you kept your account and what the number of 6 it was, sir? 7 A. Not until that week; no, sir. 8 Q. When during that week did he ask you for that 9 information? 10 A. I think it was a Thursday or Friday before that. 11 Q. Did he tell you why he wanted that information, 12 sir? 13 A. No, sir. He didn't have a particular reason in 14 mind. 15 Q. And did you write out that information for him? 16 A. Yes, sir. 17 Q. Including the L&N Credit Union, your Social 18 Security number and your address; right? 19 A. Yes, sir. 20 Q. Now, sir, let me go back and ask you, after your 21 father's death, sir, under this will, the house was deeded to 22 Brenda; correct? 23 A. Yes, sir. 24 Q. Seventy thousand dollars was transferred to your 25 account before his death; correct, sir? 78 1 A. Yes, sir. 2 Q. Did anything get transferred after his death to 3 you of more than a thousand dollars? 4 MR. SMITH: We're going to object to that as 5 being immaterial what occurred after Mr. Wesbecker's death. 6 (BENCH DISCUSSION) 7 MR. SMITH: Also, can we take a break? 8 MR. STOPHER: The purpose is, Your Honor, that 9 Mr. Wesbecker intentionally disposed of all of his assets 10 before his death so that there would be nothing left. 11 JUDGE POTTER: Do the question again and the 12 anticipated answer, Mr. Stopher, because I'm not sure I 13 understand it. 14 MR. STOPHER: What I'm asking is was there 15 anything left of his father's estate after the date of his 16 death or had it been given all away. 17 JUDGE POTTER: Ask the question and then we'll 18 take a break. Is this a good time to take a recess? 19 MR. STOPHER: Yeah. I apologize, sir. 20 (BENCH DISCUSSION CONCLUDED) 21 Q. Mr. Wesbecker, my question was -- and let me 22 attempt to rephrase it just a little bit -- had your father 23 given away or deeded or transferred everything of value before 24 his death or was there substantial property over a thousand 25 dollars in value that was left under this will? 79 1 A. I was still under the impression there was a lot 2 more in the value of his estate. 3 Q. Was it ever found or located? 4 A. Small amount. 5 Q. Less than a thousand dollars; right? 6 A. A little more than a thousand. 7 Q. A little more than a thousand. Under two 8 thousand? 9 A. Yes, sir. 10 Q. So, for all practical purposes as to what's been 11 located, everything that he owned of any significant value was 12 disposed of before he died; is that true, sir? 13 A. Yes, sir. 14 MR. STOPHER: Your Honor, I apologize for going 15 a little long. 16 JUDGE POTTER: No. That's fine. Ladies and 17 gentlemen, I'm going to take the morning recess. As I've 18 mentioned to you-all before, do not permit anybody to speak to 19 or communicate with you about this trial, and any attempt to 20 do so should be reported to me. Don't discuss it among 21 yourselves. We'll take a 15-minute recess. 22 (RECESS) 23 SHERIFF CECIL: The jury is now entering. All 24 jurors are present. Court is back in session. 25 JUDGE POTTER: Please be seated. 80 1 Mr. Wesbecker, I'll remind you you're still 2 under oath. 3 Mr. Stopher. 4 Q. Mr. Wesbecker, let me change the topic here for 5 just a moment. Did your father ever discuss with you about 6 the importance of being close together as a family? 7 A. Yes, sir. 8 Q. That he recognized that it was important to 9 maintain good relations with the members of his family? 10 A. Yes, sir. 11 Q. To keep the lines of communication open? 12 A. Yes, sir; he did. 13 Q. Did he recognize that that was an area of 14 support or strength for everybody, including himself? 15 A. Yes, sir. 16 Q. Why then, sir, would he not speak to your older 17 brother for years on end? 18 A. It was probably more a matter of disappointment 19 and maybe disloyalty that he felt. 20 Q. Why then, sir, would he not speak on frequent 21 occasions with his own mother? 22 A. That was basically more of a personal reason 23 between them as he grew up, but he did get back on speaking 24 terms with her, and they had patched things up. I don't know 25 why he didn't at first try to make things up with my brother. 81 1 Q. Did you ever get any information from the 2 caseworker or the social worker as to what the problem was 3 within the family that may have affected you? 4 A. She didn't really tell me, but from what my 5 father told me, she believed the problems that I had came from 6 us not having a close family or it was a family type of 7 problem -- emotional problem and that's the way it should be 8 treated, and he just disagreed. 9 Q. He just disagreed? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And apparently he refused to cooperate with your 12 mother, Sue? 13 A. Well, I don't know if it was cooperating with 14 her, but as far as the social worker, yes. 15 Q. Mr. Wesbecker, did your father from time to time 16 do research on subjects that he had an interest in? 17 A. Yes, sir. 18 Q. Would he sometimes go to the library? 19 A. Yes, sir; he would. 20 Q. Would he sometimes get magazines on topics that 21 were important to him? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And I'll come back to that in a minute, but he 24 did that on various items, including toluene; correct, sir? 25 A. I believe so. 82 1 Q. He did it with regard to medications? 2 A. Yes, sir. 3 Q. He did it with regard to mental illness, didn't 4 he, sir? 5 A. Yes, sir. 6 Q. Particularly manic depressive disease; correct, 7 sir? 8 A. Yes, sir. 9 Q. Did you know that he did it with regard to guns 10 and weapons? 11 A. No, sir; I didn't. 12 Q. He shared research or magazines or publications 13 with you on all other topics except firearms? 14 A. Yes, sir. 15 Q. Now, sir, let me go back, and I apologize for 16 switching the topic here again, but let me go back, sir, to 17 February of 1989. And I got us a bit off track by talking 18 about the plan to finance your schooling and go ahead on that 19 topic, but I want to go back now to February of 1989, when you 20 had this conversation with him. Are you with me, sir? 21 A. Yes, sir. 22 Q. Okay. At about that same time, sir, did he 23 share with you that he had started reading about toluene and 24 had been collecting literature and publications on that item 25 since 1987, or thereabouts? 83 1 A. I think it was a little before that. 2 Q. Before that even? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Did he tell you that he had collected 5 information about mental illness and particular disorders of a 6 psychiatric nature? 7 A. I don't think he did at that point. 8 Q. Did he tell you that he had collected literature 9 about medications for psychiatric illness? 10 A. Yes, sir. 11 Q. Including articles in Time Magazine? 12 A. I think so. 13 Q. Including the PDR or Physicians' Desk Reference? 14 A. Yes, sir. 15 Q. Did -- switching the topic here a bit, sir, did 16 your father discuss with you in February of 1989, the fact 17 that he had withdrawn from the union? 18 A. He had mentioned it; yes, sir. 19 Q. What did he tell you about that, sir? 20 A. He thought that since he had been on disability 21 there was no really fight -- or someone there in their union 22 to argue for his cause, so why be in the union. 23 Q. He felt that there was no one in the union who 24 was fighting for his cause, so why not just quit? 25 A. Well, to get out of the union; yes, sir. Yes. 84 1 Q. Stop paying the dues? 2 A. Uh-huh. 3 Q. Did you agree with him that the union was not 4 fighting for him and hearing his grievance in February of '89, 5 sir? 6 A. Well, since it had gone on for a little while, I 7 told him that it wasn't good to get out but he needed to find 8 another alternative. 9 Q. That the union wasn't getting it done? 10 A. Right. 11 Q. Didn't he want to go back to work at that time, 12 sir? 13 A. He did, but he didn't want to be on the folder 14 and he wasn't sure what he could handle. 15 Q. He wanted to go back to work but he didn't want 16 to be on the folder; right? 17 A. Correct. 18 Q. And the union was not getting him off of the 19 folder permanently; isn't that true, sir? 20 A. Correct. 21 Q. And he didn't want to go back to work if there 22 was a possibility that he would have to work that folder 23 again; right, sir? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And that's where the issue was between himself 85 1 and the union and the management at the company in February of 2 '89; correct, sir? 3 A. Yes, sir. 4 Q. And you agreed with his decision at that time to 5 stop paying union dues and to withdraw from the union; 6 correct? 7 A. Not to withdraw but to find another alternative. 8 Q. Did you discuss another alternative with him, 9 sir, at that meeting in February of 1989? 10 A. Yes, sir. I told him to contact the attorney 11 that he had had before. 12 Q. And what did you suggest to him that he do with 13 that attorney? 14 A. He could discuss bases of whatever case he may 15 have or at least have someone in a legal kind of frame of mind 16 represent you in the discussion, you know. 17 Q. What was his reaction to that? 18 A. Well, he thought it was a good idea but he 19 didn't seem overzealous to do it. 20 Q. Did you discuss any other alternatives with him 21 or he with you at that time in February of '89? 22 A. Not at that time. 23 Q. At the time of that meeting in February of 1989, 24 sir, did he tell you that he had purchased certain firearms? 25 A. No, sir. 86 1 Q. Did he discuss with you any mass murders at that 2 time that had been recently in the news? 3 A. No, sir. 4 Q. Did he ever mention anything about Stockton, 5 California, and the shootings that occurred there? 6 A. No, sir. 7 Q. Did you ever discuss with him, sir, whether or 8 not on that occasion he had suddenly developed some interest 9 in firearms or in target shooting or anything like that? 10 A. No, sir. 11 Q. Did you discuss with him, sir, in February of 12 1989, that he did not know if he would ever have to go back to 13 work or be able to go back to work or whether his work life 14 was over? 15 A. We had talked about the idea, but there really 16 wasn't much at that time that I knew about his condition until 17 he would start opening up to me. 18 Q. In February and March of 1989, was he still 19 living there at Nottoway? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And you would drop by from time to time? 22 A. Yes, I would. 23 Q. And at that point in time, sir, was he living 24 there alone in February and March of 1989? 25 A. I believe Brenda was still living at that house. 87 1 Q. In February and March of 1989, do you know what 2 your father was doing with himself during the daytime? 3 A. A lot of home improvements. I know he had done 4 some insulation. He had talked about painting the outside of 5 the house, just different home repairs, basically. 6 Q. Did he in February tell you that he didn't have 7 things to do and that there were some things that he didn't 8 want to do, such as paint the house or cut the grass? 9 A. I mean, he mentioned that he didn't like to have 10 to cut the grass and he offered to give me money to do it for 11 him, but as far as not wanting to paint the house or anything, 12 he just -- he knew it needed to be done; he just, like some 13 people, just was a little lazy maybe sometimes. 14 Q. Didn't he tell you that he was used to working 15 and not used to taking care of a house? 16 A. Well, he said he was used to, like, a structure 17 of having things set out a certain way, and then when you go 18 to being free it's hard to arrange your time better. 19 Q. Did he tell you that he felt lost without the 20 structure of a workday? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. That he needed the schedule of having a time to 23 go to work and a time to come home and categorize his life 24 that way? 25 A. Yes. 88 1 Q. And without that he was lost? 2 A. He wasn't lost, but without it, it was so 3 difficult to get anything started. 4 Q. In February and March and April he was still 5 living there at Nottoway; correct? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And did you think that Brenda was still living 8 there, sir? 9 A. I think she was still living there up until 10 April or May. 11 Q. Let me ask you if you didn't give this testimony 12 under oath in your deposition, sir, at Page 338, sir. See if 13 this refreshes your memory, if you gave these answers under 14 oath, Line 24. "Was she -- meaning Brenda -- living there in 15 February, March and April of 1989? 16 "Answer: No. At that point she had permanently 17 moved to Blevins Gap." Do you recall giving that testimony; 18 sir? 19 A. Yes, sir. 20 Q. If that testimony is correct, then your father 21 was living there at Nottoway in February, March and April of 22 1989, alone; correct, sir? 23 A. Well, not February and March. It was April, I'm 24 pretty sure is when Brenda moved out. 25 Q. And if Ms. Camp has told us that she moved out 89 1 in November of 1988, as far as you recall; that's wrong? 2 A. To my knowledge it would be. 3 Q. Now, sir, let me move forward in time here a 4 little bit to the spring of 1989. Did your father tell you 5 that Brenda was beginning to talk about selling the Nottoway 6 house that he had deeded to her? 7 A. Yes, sir. 8 Q. And did he tell you that that was something that 9 was in the discussions between the two of them at that time? 10 A. Yes, sir. 11 Q. Did he tell you where he was going to go live if 12 the house on Nottoway was sold? 13 A. Yeah. They agreed that since he wasn't working 14 and that they didn't need two houses that he would just move 15 in with her. 16 Q. Now, sir, in about that same time in the spring 17 of 1989, you were involved in some more instances of arrests; 18 correct, sir? 19 A. Yes, sir. 20 Q. And in the spring of 1989, you were denied the 21 use of a car by the authorities as part of a home 22 incarceration program; correct, sir? 23 A. Yes, sir. 24 Q. You weren't able to drive yourself back and 25 forth to school at the University of Louisville; correct? 90 1 A. Correct. 2 Q. And wasn't it your father, then, that had to 3 start driving you back and forth to school because of the home 4 incarceration? 5 A. Yes, sir. 6 Q. If I understand correctly, sir, he had given his 7 Oldsmobile to you; correct? 8 A. Yes, sir. 9 Q. He didn't even own a car, did he, sir? 10 A. Not at that time, no. 11 Q. He would use Brenda's car, sometimes a white 12 Camaro, sometimes a Monza or a white Firebird to pick you up 13 and take you to school and bring you home; correct? 14 A. Correct. 15 Q. Now, sir, if I understand correctly, in about 16 August 5, 1989, your father's grandmother, Nancy Montgomery, 17 died; am I correct, sir? 18 A. Yes. I believe so. 19 Q. And your father had told you at that time that 20 she had been more of a mother to him, at least to some extent, 21 than his own mother had been; correct? 22 A. Well, it wasn't really a mother. It was more or 23 less an influence of teaching, you know, about life. 24 Q. She was the guide or the guideline for his life; 25 correct, sir? 91 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. He looked to her for support and guidance more 3 than he did to his own mother; correct, sir? 4 A. Yes, sir. 5 Q. And he told you that, didn't he, sir? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. If I understand correctly, you and he rode 8 together to Nancy Montgomery's funeral, which I believe was 9 actually -- she was actually buried in Springfield, Kentucky; 10 am I correct about that, sir? 11 A. That's correct. 12 Q. And on the way down there was no discussion 13 between the two of you; correct? 14 A. No, sir. 15 Q. What did you talk about on the way down? 16 A. You just said there was no discussion. 17 Q. Pardon me? 18 A. Isn't that what you said, there was no 19 discussion? 20 Q. Yeah. Maybe I misunderstood you. On the way 21 down the two of you did not talk? 22 A. Right. 23 Q. Okay. On the way back from that funeral you and 24 he began to talk about Kevin; correct? 25 A. Yes, we did. 92 1 Q. And you wanted Kevin to open up and to get back 2 together; correct? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. You wanted your father to open up and to get 5 back together with Kevin; correct? 6 A. That's correct. 7 Q. But your father said that Kevin has to come 8 around; correct? 9 A. That's what he said at first; yes, sir. 10 Q. He said that it was Kevin's position and that he 11 was the one that had cut him off so that he was the one that 12 had to come around; correct? 13 A. Correct. 14 Q. Prior to that funeral on August 9, 1989, they 15 had not gotten back together, obviously, had they, sir? 16 A. No, sir. 17 Q. You even went so far as to try to get your 18 father to rewrite his will and to put Kevin into the will; 19 correct? 20 A. Yes, I did. 21 Q. And he refused to do that, didn't he, sir? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Now, sir, at the time of the summer of 1989, did 24 your father talk to you about whether or not he could go back 25 to work? 93 1 A. He mentioned it and we had talked some more, but 2 he didn't really feel that he could go back to work. 3 Q. Did he tell you why he didn't think he could go 4 back to work? 5 A. Well, for one, he thought the conditions at work 6 would still be the same and, two, he wasn't sure about what he 7 called being manic depressive. That's when he started 8 explaining that to me. 9 Q. Was that shortly after the funeral of Nancy 10 Montgomery? 11 A. Yes, it was. 12 Q. What did he start explaining to you about being 13 a manic depressive? 14 A. Well, basically he described what a bipolar 15 disorder is, how it might affect you and the people around 16 you. 17 Q. And what did he start telling you about a 18 bipolar disorder? 19 A. You say when did he tell me? 20 Q. Well, sir, that's a good question. When did he 21 tell you the first time? 22 A. Okay. It was probably a week or so after my 23 great grandmother's funeral. 24 Q. Her funeral was on August 9; correct, sir? 25 A. Yes, sir. 94 1 Q. So it would have been between August 9 and 2 approximately August 16, 1989? 3 A. Yes, sir. Somewhere around there. 4 Q. What did he tell you about bipolar disorder? 5 A. He explained the basics of the extreme highs and 6 lows, the term mania, how someone could run with an 7 exceptional amount of energy or be extremely depressed just 8 from chemistry. 9 Q. He told you about highs; correct? 10 A. Yes, sir. 11 Q. Did he tell you about extreme highs with an 12 exceptional amount of energy? 13 A. Yes, sir. 14 Q. Did he tell you that he had had those kinds of 15 things? 16 A. No, sir. He didn't really seem like he was sure 17 if that was him or not but he thought he had, you know, knew 18 the balance -- I mean, the exceptional ends of each point. 19 Q. He told you that he had the exceptional ends of 20 each point? 21 A. Yeah. That he had had extreme highs and extreme 22 lows. 23 Q. Was that the first time that he had ever told 24 you that he was bipolar or manic depressive? 25 A. Yes, sir. 95 1 Q. And is that the first time that he had ever told 2 you that he had had these extreme highs and had had the 3 extreme lows? 4 A. Yes, sir. 5 Q. Did he tell you how long, sir, he had been a 6 manic depressive or a bipolar person with these extreme highs 7 and the extreme lows? 8 A. No, sir. 9 Q. Did he tell you why he was telling you that for 10 the first time in that second week in August, between August 9 11 and August 16, 1989? 12 A. Well, he said he was getting a better 13 understanding of himself and he thought that maybe I was an 14 exact same diagnosis. 15 Q. Did he tell you that he had been doing research 16 and reading on it? 17 A. Yes, sir. 18 Q. And did he tell you that he was concerned about 19 genetics and that maybe you might have the same disorder or 20 disease? 21 A. Yes, sir. 22 Q. Had you been diagnosed at that time, sir, as a 23 manic depressive? 24 A. No, sir. 25 Q. You have been since then? 96 1 A. Yes, sir. 2 Q. Mr. Wesbecker, on that occasion, in that second 3 week there of August of 1989, did he tell you that that's what 4 the problem was insofar as his being able to go back to work 5 or not being able to go back to work? 6 A. Well, he wasn't sure. He did believe, though, 7 that his manic depression did contribute a lot to it, though. 8 Q. Contributed a lot to what? 9 A. To his not being able to go back to work. 10 Q. And at that time, sir, did he tell you that when 11 he was in these periods of extreme highs that he would have 12 lots of energy? 13 A. Yes, sir. 14 Q. And did he tell you that when he was in these 15 periods of extreme highs that he would sometimes get agitated? 16 A. No, sir. 17 Q. Did he tell you anything about his history of 18 psychiatric care and the illness at that time? 19 A. Yes, sir. He had told me a little bit more 20 about his history. 21 Q. What did he tell you about his history at that 22 time, sir? 23 A. Explained that he had been in the hospital 24 before. He explained some of the medications that he was on. 25 Q. Did he talk with you and open up with you at 97 1 that time about the family history? 2 A. Just a little. 3 Q. What did he tell you, sir? 4 A. He told me basically who my -- I guess it would 5 be Great Grandmother Murrell Wesbecker. He told me basically 6 the story of how she got committed into Central State. That's 7 basically the issue that he talked about. 8 Q. Did he at that time discuss with you any concern 9 that he had about being committed? 10 A. No, sir. 11 Q. Did he tell you that he was telling you these 12 things so that he would not be committed? 13 A. No, sir. 14 Q. Did he on that occasion in that second week of 15 August 1989, did he discuss with you any other symptoms or 16 problems of bipolar disease or disorder? 17 A. He talked about not being able to sleep 18 properly, racing of thoughts. 19 Q. Did he tell you that he had had those problems? 20 A. Yes, sir. 21 Q. Did he tell you how long he had had those 22 problems? 23 A. Well, the problem with sleeping, he said he 24 didn't know how long but he had had it for a while, and I knew 25 personally, I'd seen him get up in the morning, that he 98 1 couldn't sleep. As far as racing of thoughts, he wasn't quite 2 sure. 3 Q. He wasn't sure how long he had had that? 4 A. Yes, sir. 5 Q. Did he in August, sir, discuss with you that he 6 had looked up literature on these items? 7 A. Yes, sir. He talked about trying to find 8 certain items from either -- from, like, a medical library or 9 something. 10 Q. And was he interested in giving you this 11 information because it might apply to you, also? 12 A. I think that was his main objective, yes. 13 Q. Did he talk with you on that occasion in 14 early -- or the second week of August of 1989, between the 9th 15 and the 16th, about the extremes of the lows? 16 A. No. He really didn't go much into the extreme 17 of the lows. He just mainly talked about items that I 18 mentioned, and he would ask me if I felt the same way or 19 anything of that nature. 20 Q. And did you tell him that you had had episodes 21 where you did feel high or feel like there was lots of energy 22 in your body? 23 A. Well, I wasn't quite sure at that point, you 24 know, just someone telling you that, so I told him I would 25 have to think about it. 99 1 Q. Did you tell him that you thought when you had 2 those extreme highs or might have had an extreme high that 3 that's when you acted out or exposed yourself? 4 A. Yes, sir. 5 Q. Mr. Wesbecker, when he discussed this with you, 6 did he come up with a plan of action as to what to do about it 7 with regard to you and himself? 8 A. Well, himself, he said he was already seeing a 9 doctor and he was on medication and he thought that would take 10 care of it. But as far as for me, he wanted to go with me to 11 see my doctor to talk about some form of medication that may 12 help. 13 Q. And at that time you were still on home 14 incarceration; am I right? 15 A. Yes, sir. 16 Q. And who was your doctor at that time, sir? 17 A. Doctor Martin. 18 Q. And did you and he agree to go to Doctor Martin? 19 A. Yes, sir. 20 Q. Before you went to Doctor Martin, sir, did he 21 tell you that he had attempted suicide in the past? 22 A. No, sir. 23 Q. When you and he went to see Doctor Martin, sir, 24 did you meet with Doctor Martin together or separately? 25 A. Separately. My father went in and was in there 100 1 approximately 30 or 40 minutes. 2 Q. You recall approximately when this was, sir? 3 A. It was my next appointment I think after I had 4 talked to him, somewhere around there, because he had went 5 with me before that just to talk to him before. 6 Q. When would this have been, sir? 7 A. Before that, I know he went -- it was in the 8 summer, the beginning of the summer. He talked to my doctor 9 because he was concerned about the legal trouble that I was 10 in. 11 Q. All right. So in the summer of '89, before he 12 talked with you about the bipolar disease, he had already been 13 to see Doctor Martin? 14 A. Yes, sir. 15 Q. And he went to talk to him about the legal 16 troubles that you were having? 17 A. Yes, sir. 18 Q. Then, sir, let me go back now. He tells you 19 about the bipolar disease and you have this conversation where 20 he describes the extreme highs and the extreme lows; correct? 21 A. Yes, sir. 22 Q. And in that conversation he suggests that the 23 two of you go to see Doctor Martin, if I am understanding you 24 correctly? 25 A. Yes, sir. 101 1 Q. And then did the two of you go together? 2 A. Yes, sir; we did. 3 Q. And I assume that he drove? 4 A. Yes, sir. 5 Q. And when you got to Doctor Martin's office, did 6 he meet with Martin alone or with you? 7 A. He met with Doctor Martin and I waited out -- 8 Q. And when he came out of that meeting, did he 9 speak to you, sir? 10 A. My father didn't, no. I went in for the 11 remainder of my appointment with Doctor Martin. 12 Q. And did Doctor Martin talk to you about what 13 your father had said to him? 14 A. Yes, he did. 15 Q. What did he say, sir? 16 A. He wanted to know if I had felt like this in any 17 way and I told him I wasn't sure. I hadn't thought about it. 18 So he gave me a little paperback brochure that explains 19 bipolar disorder. That way, he said, "At least if it's not 20 you, you can understand your father better." And from that 21 point he prescribed lithium anyway just to see what effect it 22 would have. 23 Q. And he prescribed that for you? 24 A. Yes, sir. 25 Q. Now, sir, during that period of time in August 102 1 and September of 1989, did your father open up to you more 2 about himself and his history? 3 A. Yes, sir. 4 Q. And what sorts of things did he begin to tell 5 you in that time period about himself? 6 A. Well, basically, he started mentioning more 7 about pacing at night. 8 Q. Did he tell you how long he had been doing that? 9 A. He said about a couple weeks. 10 Q. Did he tell you he had had it before? 11 A. No, sir. 12 Q. Did he tell you he had had it when he worked at 13 Standard Gravure? 14 A. No, sir. 15 Q. Did he tell you anything, sir, about his history 16 as to how he grew up and that sort of thing? 17 A. Well, we had already talked about that before. 18 Q. He had already told you about that? 19 A. I mean always -- we always talked about things. 20 He would explain things to me about him playing football 21 growing up, how he had dropped out of school in ninth grade. 22 We had had always open discussions about that. 23 Q. He had always discussed those things with you? 24 A. Yeah. He never shied away from it. 25 Q. In August and September of 1989, did he discuss 103 1 Standard Gravure with you? 2 A. Only to the point that he was trying to 3 calculate what he thought his check should be, and he thought 4 it was below what it should have been. 5 Q. What check was he trying to calculate about, 6 sir? 7 A. His disability. 8 Q. Did he ever tell you how much it was or what it 9 was going to be? 10 A. Well, he never told me the exact amount, but he 11 did tell me he was under the assumption that it would be 12 closer to I think something like nine hundred to a thousand 13 dollars. 14 Q. Is that what he thought it should be? 15 A. I think so. 16 Q. Did he tell you what it really was or was going 17 to be? 18 A. No, sir. 19 Q. In August and September of 1989, or let me be 20 more specific, in September of 1989, was he picking you up in 21 the morning and taking you to school? 22 A. Yes, sir. 23 Q. And was he picking you up in the afternoon and 24 bringing you back home? 25 A. Yes, sir. 104 1 Q. And was that nearly every day, sir? 2 A. Yes, sir. Just about. 3 Q. During that period of time, sir, would you also 4 talk with him on the phone at night? 5 A. Oh, yes. 6 Q. And would you call him or would he call you? 7 A. Both. 8 Q. And about what time of the night would those 9 calls occur? 10 A. Somewhere around 9:00 at night. 11 Q. Now, sir, on any of those occasions, did he 12 discuss with you in September anything about his mental 13 illness, other than what you've already told us? 14 A. Not that I can think of, sir. 15 Q. Did he tell you that he was getting more 16 concerned that he would not be able to go back to work at 17 Standard Gravure? 18 A. Well, he was concerned about his bipolar 19 condition, but that was all he mentioned. 20 Q. And did he tell you that he was concerned as to 21 whether or not he could make it financially on the disability 22 checks if he didn't go back to work? 23 A. Yes, sir. He always talked about money. 24 Q. Did he discuss with you in September the 25 medications that he was on? 105 1 A. In September? 2 Q. Yes, sir. 3 A. Yes, sir. 4 Q. What did he tell you he was taking? 5 A. I believe at that time it was lithium, I know he 6 was on a sleep medication, and Prozac, from what I understand. 7 Q. And how did he tell you he was doing on those 8 medications? 9 A. Well, he said he felt fine. 10 Q. Did he appear to you to be fine? 11 A. At times. 12 Q. Did he tell you that he thought he was having 13 any side effects from Prozac or that he was having no side 14 effects from Prozac? 15 A. He never mentioned one way or the other. 16 Q. Let me refer you, sir, to your deposition again 17 where you testified under oath on October 1, 1992, Page 416 of 18 that deposition, and ask you at Line 2 if you didn't give this 19 answer. "Question: Did he tell you he had any side effects 20 from Prozac? 21 "Answer: None that he said he could tell." 22 Is that true, sir? 23 A. Well, I really don't recollect or remember us 24 talking about it, but if I said that, I did say that. 25 Q. Do you have any reason to believe that that 106 1 testimony is not truthful and accurate, sir? 2 A. Only the fact that, honestly, I can't remember 3 us ever talking one way or the other about effects of how it 4 affected him. 5 Q. You can't remember that today -- as you sit 6 there today; right? 7 A. Yes, sir. 8 Q. But you did recall it when you gave your 9 deposition under oath on October 1, 1992; correct? 10 A. Yes, sir. That day maybe I remembered something 11 else, yes. 12 Q. Now, sir, let me go with you now to September 13 the 13th, 1989. Do you recall meeting with your father and 14 riding with him on that day? 15 A. Yes, sir. 16 Q. And what do you recall about that, sir? 17 A. He came and picked me up at 8:30 in the morning. 18 We had breakfast at McDonald's, and from there we just talked 19 because I had about an extra 45 minutes before my class, and 20 we were making final decisions because I had a couple schools 21 that I had already sent applications to enroll at, and N.C. 22 State had sent me one back saying that they had accepted me 23 and I was talking to him about that. 24 Q. That N.C. State would accept you into the 25 Master's program there? 107 1 A. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. 2 Q. When you told your father that, was he concerned 3 about how you were going to live there, sir? 4 A. Yes, sir; he was. 5 Q. And did he tell you that he was concerned that 6 he couldn't go and live there with you? 7 A. Yes, sir. 8 Q. And he was worried that if you were alone that 9 your problems of acting out would become difficult for you to 10 manage? 11 A. Yes, sir. He was afraid of that. 12 Q. Did he specify to you on that date, September 13 13, 1989, why he didn't feel like he could go with you to N.C. 14 State? 15 A. Well, he felt like with his condition as far as 16 his being bipolar, he didn't know how much good that he would 17 do being with me, and he was wondering if there was some way 18 maybe somebody else or something -- if I could get like a dorm 19 apartment or something and have a roommate because he just 20 thought that that would be a better system. 21 Q. On September the 13th, sir, was he able to carry 22 on conversations with you about this topic and other topics? 23 A. Yes, sir. Many topics. 24 Q. You-all sat there at breakfast and discussed 25 things with each other? 108 1 A. Yes, sir. He was full of life. He kept 2 talking, going on different topics, switching about. 3 Q. He made sense? 4 A. Yeah. He had to slow down a lot but, I mean, he 5 made sense. He was thinking, you know, over so on some 6 issues. 7 Q. He did the driving? 8 A. Yes, sir. 9 Q. Then on the afternoon of the 13th, after you 10 finished classes, did he come and pick you up again? 11 A. Yes, sir. 12 Q. And on that occasion, what do you recall about 13 him? 14 A. I remember him looking a little scruffy. He 15 wasn't as neat and tidy. 16 Q. Did he look like he had just gotten up? 17 A. Yes, sir. 18 Q. What else do you recall about the ride home on 19 the afternoon of the 13th? 20 A. I also remember that he was oversensitive and 21 very agitated because I had mentioned to him that I needed 22 another manual for a class I was doing, and he -- I just 23 needed a ten and he stopped right there on Cardinal Boulevard 24 and gave me the money and, luckily, there was no traffic. 25 Q. Sir, didn't you testify that when he took you 109 1 home that day, that he was tired and that he didn't talk and 2 that he seemed down? 3 A. Yes, sir. When he dropped me off. I'm talking 4 about when he picked me up. 5 Q. When he picked you up at school he was different 6 and on the ride home he changed? 7 A. Yes, sir. 8 Q. On the ride home, if I understand you now, when 9 he picked you up, he looked like he had just gotten up from a 10 nap; right? 11 A. Uh-huh. Yes, sir. 12 Q. And in that ride you thought he was agitated? 13 A. Yes, sir. 14 Q. What about him appeared agitated, sir? 15 A. Well, he seemed more nervous than normal and 16 when I mentioned anything about the $10 or anything like that, 17 he just was -- just, like, had to get it out of his pocket 18 right that second, like, here you go, right now. 19 Q. Did you know on that date, sir, that he had 20 given you $70,000 when you had asked him for $10 more? 21 A. No, sir. At that time, I didn't know of any 22 other transaction. 23 Q. And he appeared irritated when you asked him for 24 $10; correct, sir? 25 A. Yes, sir. 110 1 Q. And you didn't know at that time that he had 2 just given you $70,000; correct, sir? 3 A. Correct. 4 Q. Now, when you continued on the drive home, your 5 father became withdrawn and stopped talking and appeared 6 tired; is that true, sir? 7 A. Yes, sir. 8 Q. And that was on the afternoon of the 13th; 9 correct? 10 A. Correct. 11 Q. On that occasion was he able to -- well, strike 12 that. 13 Sir, let me go on to that evening. Let me go 14 back to that afternoon, sir, when he's taking you home. 15 Didn't you ask him if everything had worked out? Let me back 16 up, sir. Strike that, also. Let me get it straight. 17 That evening you talked with him on the 18 telephone; correct? 19 A. Yes, sir. 20 Q. And if I understand correctly it was about 9:30 21 P.M.; correct? 22 A. Yes, sir. 23 Q. And you were at your mother's house, at Sue's 24 house; correct? 25 A. Correct. 111 1 Q. And if I understand correctly, he called you; am 2 I right? 3 A. Yes, sir; he did. 4 Q. And during that conversation it seemed to you 5 that he had his energy back and that he was ready to talk; 6 correct, sir? 7 A. Correct. 8 Q. And in that conversation he called to apologize 9 to you for his behavior that afternoon; correct? 10 A. Correct. 11 Q. And you asked him if everything had worked out; 12 correct? 13 A. Why, yes, I asked him if everything was all 14 right with him. Yes, sir. 15 Q. And what was his response? 16 A. He said everything was fine now. 17 Q. Did he tell you -- let me ask you this, sir. 18 Did he sound normal or did he sound different in that 19 telephone call? 20 A. Well, he was better than that morning, but he 21 was, I would say, exceptionally high. 22 Q. Let me ask you if you don't recall, sir, giving 23 your deposition testimony under oath, again on October 1, 24 1992, about that telephone conversation. Beginning on Page 25 431, Line 23. "What time did this occur? 112 1 "The phone call was around 9:30 that night. 2 "Question: And he apologized for the way he had 3 acted that afternoon? 4 "Answer: Yes. 5 "Question: He realized that he had not exactly 6 been a good companion in the car? 7 "Answer: Correct. 8 "Question: And he wanted to apologize for the 9 way he acted? 10 "Answer: Correct. 11 "Question. Did you ask him how he was feeling? 12 "Answer: Yes. I asked him, you know, 13 'Everything work out?' He said, 'Yes, I was just tired.' He 14 said, 'I took me a nap, I'm fine now. Everything's fine.' 15 "Question: He sounded normal? 16 "Answer: Yes. Actually, he sounded the best 17 I'd heard him for a few weeks. 18 "Question: He seemed upbeat or positive and 19 energetic, that sort of thing? 20 "Answer: Yes. Actually I'd say he sounded 21 chipper, you know. 22 "Question: Is that the last time you talked to 23 him? 24 "Answer: Yes." 25 Is that testimony still accurate, sir? 113 1 A. Yes, sir. 2 Q. Mr. Wesbecker, at any time, sir, prior to 3 September 14, 1989, had you ever seen any firearms in his 4 possession, sir? 5 A. No, sir. 6 Q. Let me show you, sir, a series of photographs 7 that have been marked and filed as Defendant's Exhibit 7, 8, 8 9, 10, 11. Take a look -- take a moment and take a look at 9 those photographs, sir. 10 Have you had a chance to look at them, sir? 11 A. Yes, sir. 12 Q. Do you see in those photographs, sir, or in some 13 of those photographs a duffel bag or a bag of some sort, sir? 14 A. Yes, sir. 15 Q. Had you ever seen that bag in your father's 16 possession? 17 A. I don't recall that bag, but I do remember he 18 had some duffel bags for work, to carry work clothes. 19 Q. Did -- had you ever seen any of the other 20 objects in that -- in those photographs prior to September 14, 21 1989? 22 A. No, sir. 23 Q. Not in his home? 24 A. No, sir. 25 Q. Not in any of the vehicles that Brenda owned, 114 1 such as the Monza or the Camaro or the Firebird? 2 A. No, sir. 3 Q. Not in your Oldsmobile that he had given to you? 4 A. No, sir. 5 Q. Prior to September 14, 1989, sir, had he ever 6 told you that he had any interest at all in guns or in 7 acquiring guns and ammunition? 8 A. No, sir. 9 Q. Prior to September 14, 1989, sir, had he ever 10 told you that he had any plans to get revenge or to get even 11 at Standard Gravure? 12 A. No, sir. 13 Q. Prior to September 14, 1989, had he ever told 14 you that he ever wanted to kill anybody? 15 A. No, sir. 16 Q. Had he ever told you that he ever wanted to kill 17 Doctor Beasley? 18 A. No, sir. 19 Q. Melissa Beasley? 20 A. No, sir. 21 Q. Brenda? 22 A. No, sir. 23 Q. Mr. Shea? 24 A. No, sir. 25 Q. Mr. McCall? 115 1 A. No, sir. 2 Q. Ms. Warman? 3 A. No, sir. 4 Q. Donald Cox? 5 A. No, sir. 6 Q. Jim Popham? 7 A. No, sir. 8 Q. Had he ever told you that he had an interest in 9 explosives or in blowing up Standard Gravure? 10 A. No, sir. 11 Q. Did he ever tell you that he was trying to 12 arrange a plan to blow up the building and the people in it? 13 A. No, sir. 14 Q. Did he ever mention anything like that to you? 15 A. No, he didn't. 16 Q. Did he ever discuss a plan about a model 17 airplane and equipping it with explosives to fly it into the 18 plant and to do destructive acts there? 19 A. No, sir. 20 Q. Had he ever talked to you about ever carrying a 21 weapon into Standard Gravure? 22 A. No, sir. 23 Q. Never mentioned any of those things to you? 24 A. No, sir. 25 Q. Did he ever talk about attempts to get a 116 1 contract to have somebody killed? 2 A. No, sir. 3 Q. Did he ever mention to you, sir, that he had 4 ever had homicidal thoughts or ideas that he had expressed to 5 anybody? 6 A. No, sir. 7 Q. And if he had those things and had said those 8 kinds of things, he certainly never said them to you; am I 9 correct? 10 A. That's correct. 11 Q. And if he said those things and thought those 12 kinds of things, he kept them from you; correct? 13 A. Correct. 14 Q. And if he owned those guns and the ammunition 15 that you see in those photographs, he kept that information 16 from you, as well, didn't he, sir? 17 A. Yes, sir. 18 Q. I think that's all I have at the present time, 19 Your Honor. 20 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Mr. Smith. 21 MR. SMITH: Your Honor, I feel -- I have what I 22 think is significant cross-examination by virtue of a 23 significant distortion of the facts that has been created 24 here. 25 JUDGE POTTER: How long are you going to be, Mr. 117 1 Smith? 2 MR. SMITH: I'd like to try to get it completed 3 by 12:30. I know it's the Thanksgiving break. 4 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Let me see you-all up 5 here. 6 (BENCH DISCUSSION) 7 JUDGE POTTER: How long are you going to be? If 8 you tell me you want to go till Monday, that's not a problem. 9 MR. SMITH: I'm worried about the jury being 10 tired in connection with listening to my cross-examination. 11 Let me try it, though. 12 JUDGE POTTER: What I don't want to do, Mr. 13 Smith, is do an hour and a half now and then do an hour and a 14 half on Monday going over the same hour and a half. 15 MR. SMITH: I won't do that either way. 16 JUDGE POTTER: All right. 17 (BENCH DISCUSSION CONCLUDED) 18 19 EXAMINATION ___________ 20 21 BY_MR._SMITH: __ ___ _____ 22 Q. Mr. Wesbecker, my name is Paul Smith. I 23 represent the Plaintiffs in this case. You and I have never 24 met, have we? 25 A. No, sir. 118 1 Q. Ms. Zettler here also represents the Plaintiffs. 2 You've never met her, have you? 3 A. No, sir. 4 Q. And Mr. Foley was here. He had to leave, but 5 you have not met him, have you? 6 A. No, sir. 7 Q. We've never talked, have we? 8 A. No, sir; we haven't. 9 Q. And you and I have not discussed what I intend 10 to discuss with you at all, have we? 11 A. No, sir. 12 Q. I intend to talk with you concerning what my 13 understanding is of the facts that you testified to in your 14 deposition. Okay, sir? 15 A. Yes, sir. 16 Q. But before I -- and I'm going to be probably 17 specifically interested in, let's say from February of 1989 to 18 September 14th, 1989. But before we do that, let me see if I 19 understand the situation with you and your dad. When did your 20 problem start? How old were you, Mr. Wesbecker, when your 21 problem started? 22 A. I was ten years old. 23 Q. And were your parents separated at that time? 24 A. They were in the works to be separated. 25 Q. Up until your parents started having problems 119 1 when you were nine or ten years old, did you feel that your 2 home life was generally happy? 3 A. Yes, sir. 4 Q. Did you love your dad? 5 A. Very much so. 6 Q. Did he act as a loving father to you? 7 A. Yes, sir. 8 Q. What type of things would you and he do together 9 before you were eight or nine years old? 10 A. Have snowball fights, build a snowman in the 11 snow or he taught me how to build igloos and stuff when we had 12 the big snowdrifts. He taught me how to play sports, 13 especially football, make friends, ride a bike, numerous 14 things. 15 Q. Did you-all have friends over to your house? 16 A. Yes, sir; we did. 17 Q. And did your friends enjoy coming over, as far 18 as you know? 19 A. Yes, sir. 20 Q. Kevin -- was Kevin also involved in some of 21 these activities? 22 A. Yes, sir. 23 Q. Was your mother involved in these activities? 24 A. Yes, sir. 25 Q. Would you-all do things as a family? 120 1 A. Yes, we would. 2 Q. Did you go on trips as a family? 3 A. Yes. Vacation trips. We also did picnics, many 4 things. 5 Q. Where did you go on vacation trips? 6 A. Mainly to Florida. We would go to I think it 7 was St. Petersburg when I was young. We went to Disney World 8 in Florida. We went to I think Six Flags over Georgia, I 9 think. There's many places that we went to around there. 10 Washington, D.C. 11 Q. Did you feel any different from any other child 12 up to the time your parents starting having problems? 13 A. No, sir. 14 Q. Do you feel that your dad is responsible for 15 your problem? 16 A. No, sir. 17 Q. How many psychiatrists have you discussed your 18 problem with over the last -- what would it be, 15 years, 17 19 years? 20 A. I'd say maybe five psychiatrists. 21 Q. How many mental health-care professionals have 22 you seen? 23 A. Numerous. 24 Q. Have any of them attributed your acting out to 25 something specifically that your dad did to you? 121 1 A. No, sir. 2 Q. When your problem started, how did your dad 3 react? 4 A. He was kind of startled, really. He didn't know 5 how to act, but what he did basically was get me help. 6 Q. Did he beat you? 7 A. No, sir. 8 Q. Did he spank you? 9 A. No, sir. 10 Q. Do you know why? 11 A. Yes. Because he loved me. 12 Q. And so what did he do? 13 A. What he did is he, you know, made sure that I 14 knew that they loved me no matter what and that we'd get 15 through this. 16 Q. Through all of your problems, Kevin (sic), 17 through all of your court appearances, all of your periods in 18 psychiatric hospitals, all of your periods in jail 19 incarceration and in in-home incarceration, did your dad do 20 anything other than support you? 21 A. No, sir. 22 Q. Did you ever have an occasion when you called 23 your dad and your dad said, "Jimmy, I'm sick of this, I'm sick 24 of you, I'm just not going to come to your assistance"? 25 A. No, sir. 122 1 Q. Did your dad ever cry about your problem? 2 A. Cry? No, sir. 3 Q. Was your dad -- did you ever see your dad cry? 4 A. No, sir. 5 Q. In all your life with your dad, you never saw 6 him cry? 7 A. Not that I can remember. 8 Q. If a psychiatrist then reported on September 9 11th, 1989, that your dad was weeping in a session, would that 10 be something unusual that you hadn't observed in your father? 11 A. Very unusual. 12 Q. Did you ever -- did your dad ever report to you 13 that he had been forced to perform oral sex on a supervisor at 14 work? 15 A. No, sir. 16 Q. If your dad -- if a psychiatrist had reported 17 that your dad was weeping about that in a psychiatric session 18 on September 11th, 1989, would that be something that is 19 different about your dad? 20 A. Yes, sir. 21 Q. There's been a lot of talk in this lawsuit about 22 the relationship between your dad and your mom, and there 23 were, as I understand it, some rocky times in the late '70s 24 and early '80s; is that correct? 25 A. Yes, sir. 123 1 Q. After those rocky times, was there a period, 2 say, from like maybe '83, '84, maybe '84 or '85, that your dad 3 and your mom's relationship improved? 4 A. I would say probably late '82 on till, you know, 5 till the last day. I mean, their relationship improved 6 drastically each day. 7 Q. Tell the jury about what the change in their 8 relationship was after -- I mean, we've heard about what 9 apparently was a quite emotional, quite bitter divorce between 10 the two; is that right? 11 A. Yes, sir. 12 Q. But after that, after a period of time did their 13 relationship -- tell the jury how their relationship changed, 14 if you know. 15 A. Well, it changed in the idea that they came 16 together, would talk more civil to each other concerning maybe 17 me if I was having problems or even about Kevin, how Mom would 18 actually even tell Dad that, you know, "Why don't you talk to 19 your son," or something. They would talk and even talk on the 20 phone sometimes up to an hour. And I was sometimes -- I 21 couldn't believe it when I saw who she was talking to, that 22 Dad would call for me and here he is talking to my mom, you 23 know. 24 And then when my mom got remarried and my 25 stepfather, Carl, he didn't take offense to that at all. As a 124 1 matter of fact, he thought it was great that I would have 2 somebody else in my life to help me, and he worked with Carl 3 even, and he made it to where it was almost like a family in 4 two different houses for me. That was just what I saw, and 5 between them, I mean, if he came by and knocked on the door, 6 she would answer. She wouldn't run or cuss at him. They'd 7 say hi. She would invite him in sometimes to have one cup of 8 coffee when he'd wait. And it got to be so nice and friendly 9 like a home again. 10 Q. Did that improve your problem, them getting back 11 where they were on better terms? 12 A. I can't really say if it helped or not. 13 Q. Your problem continued, at least? 14 A. To me, it made me feel better, yes. 15 Q. I'm talking about your problem with exposure. 16 Did the fact that they were getting along together help you 17 and reduce the amount of exposure that you were having? 18 A. Yes. It reduced it, yes. 19 Q. All right. But did it cure it or solve it in 20 any way? 21 A. No, sir. No, sir; it did not. 22 Q. All right. Let's see if we can get a little 23 more specific. As I understand it, in the fall of 1988, you 24 were going to the University of Louisville and living with 25 your mother; is that right? 125 1 A. Yes, sir. 2 Q. You were continuing to maintain a close 3 relationship with your mother and your father? 4 A. Yes, sir. 5 Q. During 1988, were you still having problems in 6 acting out? 7 A. I believe so. 8 Q. Were there periods of time in 1988 where you 9 were incarcerated as a result of this, Mr. Wesbecker? 10 A. I think so. 11 Q. And do you remember in 1988 if your father came 12 to your assistance during those occasions? 13 A. Every time he did. 14 Q. Were you having any periods of home 15 incarceration during that time? 16 A. I might have. 17 Q. And in that program were you allowed to have 18 visitors, like, could your father come by and see you? 19 A. Yes, sir. 20 Q. And did you say even that you were going to 21 school, but you just had to get some guidance with the 22 sheriff's department or something of that nature? 23 A. Well, in the home incarceration you're not 24 allowed to drive a vehicle at all, so my father would come by 25 and he would pick me up and take me and stuff like that. 126 1 Q. Did your father have to get approval from 2 Jefferson County to do that? 3 A. No, sir. 4 Q. It was just that you couldn't drive; is that 5 right? 6 A. Correct. 7 Q. The discussions about school were centered 8 around whether or not you would go to school in Louisville for 9 your postgraduate work or would go to North Carolina State? 10 A. Correct. 11 Q. And did I understand it that you were -- on 12 September 13th accepted to North Carolina State? 13 A. Yes, sir. 14 Q. Had you definitely made a decision to go to 15 North Carolina State on September 13th? 16 A. Yes, sir. 17 Q. I thought there was some discussion in reading 18 your deposition, and I may have misunderstood, about maybe you 19 staying another year in Louisville. Was there a discussion of 20 that? 21 A. No, sir. What it was basically is my father was 22 wanting me to go to N.C. State and live there for a year and 23 get residency, and then after you have residency apply for a 24 graduate program then. 25 Q. All right. So was this a discussion that you 127 1 had had earlier? 2 A. Yes, sir. 3 Q. Before September 1989? 4 A. Yes, sir. 5 Q. And how was that resolved? You remained in 6 Louisville and did not set up the residency at North Carolina? 7 A. No, sir. I went to N.C. State graduate studies. 8 Q. Well, I understand that, but at the time, you 9 elected not to go to North Carolina until you finished 10 Louisville. You got your degree from Louisville? 11 A. Correct. 12 Q. And then went directly to North Carolina State? 13 A. Yes, sir. 14 Q. And was that your plan in September of 1989? 15 A. Yes, sir. 16 Q. And was your -- did your dad accept that plan? 17 A. All but one point. He didn't want me to work. 18 And I told him I would work to try to make up part of the 19 tuition somehow. 20 Q. When was that discussion about working? Wasn't 21 that back in February of '89? 22 A. That was in February. 23 Q. Let's go back to that February discussion then. 24 As I understand it, your father happened to come by -- or you 25 happened to go by your father's house; is that right? 128 1 A. Yes, sir. 2 Q. And he was living on Nottoway at that time? 3 A. Correct. 4 Q. Now, what was the situation between he and 5 Brenda? Was Brenda still there or had she moved to Blevins 6 Gap? 7 A. I believe she was still there till about March, 8 so she would have been there still at night. 9 Q. Even after, though, Brenda moved to Blevins Gap 10 they still -- Joe and Brenda still saw each other regularly; 11 correct? 12 A. Correct. 13 Q. And would spend the night at the home in Blevins 14 Gap; is that right? 15 A. Yes, sir. 16 Q. And sometimes Brenda would take Joe back by the 17 house on Nottoway Circle in the mornings; is that right? 18 A. Sometimes, but most of the time he would take 19 the Monza. 20 Q. From Blevins Gap and then pick you up; is that 21 right? 22 A. Uh-huh. Yes, sir. 23 Q. All right. As I understand it, in February of 24 1989, Kevin had made an offer to reconcile with your father; 25 is that right? 129 1 A. Kevin made an offer in February '89? 2 Q. Yes. 3 A. No, sir. 4 Q. All right. Your father had said he would 5 reconcile with him or there was a discussion of 6 reconciliation? 7 A. There was a discussion. 8 Q. All right. And there was a discussion at that 9 time, also, about the fact that your dad was not going to 10 leave Kevin any money; is that right? 11 A. Correct. 12 Q. And what again were your dad's complaints about 13 Kevin? 14 A. Basically how he had lied to him, cheated him, 15 been disloyal, you know, wasn't a part of like the family 16 network that he believed in. 17 Q. At that time you told him in February of '89 18 that it would cost approximately $60,000 for your postgraduate 19 education? 20 A. Yes sir. 21 Q. Was that going to be at North Carolina State or 22 was there a decision at that time about where you were going? 23 A. Well, at that time we were just getting an 24 average depending upon the different areas that I was thinking 25 about attending. 130 1 Q. And your dad at that time was not sure how to 2 fund that; is that right? 3 A. Correct. 4 Q. Did you have any doubt that your dad would be 5 able to fund that at that time? 6 A. No. No. 7 Q. Why is that? 8 A. Because when he sets his mind to it and he knows 9 money, he knows how to save. 10 Q. I believe you testified that your impression at 11 that time was that your dad had saved money and had some 12 substantial amount of money in savings? 13 A. I knew he had some money, but I knew he needed 14 money for his own situation since he was on disability. I 15 thought he had part of it to where I could work for the rest 16 and it would be all right. 17 Q. Okay. And your dad and you were discussing the 18 best way to go about that; is that right? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. At this time, Mr. Wesbecker planned to continue 21 living on Blevins Gap -- living on Nottoway and Brenda living 22 at Blevins Gap? 23 A. Yes, sir. 24 Q. At that time your dad told you that he and 25 Brenda were not going to remarry because they felt they got 131 1 along better just living together; is that right? 2 A. Yes, sir. That's correct. 3 Q. Had there been discussions about the possibility 4 of Joe and Brenda remarrying? 5 A. No, sir. It's just that I didn't -- I was 6 unaware that they were divorced until my grandmother told me. 7 And when I asked my father about it, that's when he told me 8 the situation and made sure that I knew that they weren't 9 planning on getting remarried. 10 Q. But they were going to continue this living 11 arrangement that they had? 12 A. Correct. 13 Q. Was this, in your opinion, this discussion in 14 February something unusual or there was an argumentative 15 nature about this discussion in February? 16 A. No, sir. Because we had had discussions like 17 that before because we're basically both bullheaded if we 18 think we're right and, you know, that's the way it is. It's 19 not really anything to it. 20 Q. Did your dad shout at you at that time? 21 A. No, sir. 22 Q. Did you shout at your dad? 23 A. No, sir. Because we were sitting at a table 24 with a pad trying to get some ideas of how to calculate 25 things, and it wasn't really sort of a shouting discussion. 132 1 Q. And then he sort of backed up and smiled and 2 said, "I want you to explain the logic of that"? 3 A. Yes, sir. 4 Q. Do you remember where your dad spent -- where 5 you spent Christmas in 1988? 6 A. Yes, sir. I probably spent that Christmas 7 morning with my dad. 8 Q. And who was there Christmas morning in 1988? 9 A. In '88? 10 Q. Yeah. 11 A. I know Brenda and her two children. 12 Q. Melissa and Chris? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. In connection with the allegation that your dad 15 wouldn't have anything to do with Melissa, have you heard that 16 shortly before your dad's death on September 14th that he had 17 been driving Melissa's car and had her tires changed or 18 switched? Did you know anything about that? 19 A. It's the first time I heard anything, sir. 20 Q. Mr. Lucas said that when your dad came by there 21 in September that he was driving his stepdaughter's car 22 because he had had her tires changed. Do you remember 23 anything about that? 24 A. No, sir. I wasn't told. 25 Q. But in any event, Melissa and Chris were at your 133 1 dad's house on Nottoway for Christmas 1988? 2 A. Yes, sir. 3 Q. When you were at your dad's house in February of 4 1989 -- I'm switching back and forth here -- was your dad's 5 house messed up? 6 A. Not really in February; no, sir. 7 Q. Was it ever messed up where the place just 8 seemed torn up to you? 9 A. No, sir. 10 Q. Did you ever see any occasions where your dad 11 was urinating in a coffee can or a can or a bucket or anything 12 of that nature? 13 A. No, sir. 14 Q. Did you go by there on any occasion when the 15 telephone was cut off? 16 A. Yes, sir. 17 Q. March of '89, when the phone was cut off? 18 A. Yeah. I believe it was that spring. 19 Q. And at that time your dad told you there wasn't 20 any reason to have the phone there on Nottoway Circle because 21 he could always use the one at Brenda's house on Blevins Gap? 22 A. Yes, sir. He said since they had two houses 23 they were trying to cut down on the two bills and everything. 24 Q. Did Mr. Wesbecker then in June of 1989 start 25 going over to the house on Blevins Gap when Ms. Camp's father, 134 1 Mr. Camp, became ill? 2 A. Yes, sir. And a little before that. 3 Q. Tell the jury about whether or not your dad was 4 friendly with Mr. Camp and assisted Brenda during those last 5 days with Mr. Camp. 6 A. He was more than friendly. He assisted him in 7 whatever he needed. Since he couldn't really walk -- he had 8 had an operation and then he developed complications -- he 9 would help him around if he needed food, a rest room, he 10 needed something at the store, whatever, my dad did it for 11 him. 12 Q. In June of 1989, did your dad seem okay? 13 A. Yes, sir. 14 Q. How often were you seeing your dad in June of 15 1989? 16 A. Seeing him every day, basically, except for 17 maybe the weekend. 18 Q. Was he acting the same way in latter August and 19 in September as he was in June of 1989? 20 A. No, sir. 21 Q. In what ways was your dad different while taking 22 Prozac? 23 A. Excuse me? 24 Q. He started taking Prozac on August 17th, 1989. 25 Let's back up. When did you first learn that your dad was 135 1 taking Prozac? 2 A. Okay. He told me probably early September. 3 Q. And did you notice any difference about your dad 4 in early September 1989? 5 A. Not at that time. I noted some different 6 situations I thought were odd, but I didn't think anything 7 about it at the time. 8 Q. What then did you think was odd? 9 A. Well, about stopping in the middle of the road 10 to just reach for money as quick as you can to throw it at 11 you. To me, that was -- it was alarming, you know. Usually 12 Dad would say, "Let's just go over there and pick up the 13 book," you know, there would be no problem. 14 Q. Give me some more details. He stopped in the 15 middle of the road. 16 A. Okay. He picked me up and when we were taking 17 off I was telling him that there was another manual that we're 18 going to have to do with this experiment. 19 Q. I'm sorry. I didn't understand you. 20 A. That we had to get another manual for the class. 21 Q. Another manual for the experiment? 22 A. Uh-huh. And basically it would cost about $10. 23 And he right then -- we were on Cardinal Boulevard -- he 24 stopped the car, and just kind of looked at me, reached in his 25 pocket, got the money as quickly as he could and just gave it 136 1 to me and said, "There, you've got it right now." 2 Q. Your dad had never done that before? 3 A. No. Plus the way he looked. He looked like he 4 had just gotten up, too. 5 Q. What time was this? 6 A. Around three, three-thirty. 7 Q. Was that normal for your dad to look that way at 8 three or three-thirty? 9 A. No, sir. He was always clean and neat. 10 Q. What else was different about him in December 11 (sic) of 1989? 12 A. Also on that occasion he was also more agitated. 13 It just seemed like what I had just asked him had just been 14 the last straw and then afterwards, though, it was totally 15 opposite. He didn't really want to speak much. He didn't 16 want to say anything at all. But there's other instances, 17 too, where we had been together. 18 Q. All right. What about that? 19 A. Okay. Basically, he would just be real rapid, 20 as far as conversation, going on different topics. It just 21 seemed like I just couldn't slow him down enough to talk to 22 him. 23 Q. Give the jury, if you can, Mr. Wesbecker, a 24 specific example of what you're talking about and when that 25 occurred. 137 1 A. Okay. I think it was around -- somewhere around 2 the 11th or 12th of September, and my father had picked me up 3 that morning and we were going to have breakfast and talk 4 about graduate school because I was going to make my plans, 5 what I needed to do. And he just kept talking about different 6 things. If this doesn't work we can do this and going back 7 and forth, different ideas and topics, and I was having to try 8 to slow him down. Then he would jump from that over to the 9 idea of "What about your condition. Do you think you have 10 this illness." And I'm, like, "Well, what?" So he started 11 explaining a little more about himself and then he started 12 talking about medication. 13 Q. Wait a minute. I thought -- let me interrupt 14 you. In the questioning of Mr. Stopher, I thought that 15 occurred in early August. Is that not right? 16 A. I mean, we've had conversations where he's been 17 jumping around on subjects and stuff, but where he's so 18 alarmed when we're talking that not only is he jumping 19 subjects that he is -- you can feel his concern, something 20 different, is what I'm saying. His feelings were definitely 21 genuine. 22 Q. Okay. And that was when? 23 A. And that was that last week. I think it was, 24 like, Monday. 25 Q. All right. Anything else? 138 1 A. Not that I can think of. 2 Q. All right. As I understand it, in early 3 September, Mr. Wesbecker told you what his diagnosis was and 4 what specifically his problem was about manic depression? 5 A. Yes, sir. 6 Q. Then he brought this up one morning on the way 7 to school; is that right? 8 A. Yes, sir. 9 Q. And that he was seeing a psychiatrist for this 10 problem; is that right? 11 A. Correct. 12 Q. And that he had been diagnosed as manic 13 depressive; right? 14 A. Yes, sir. 15 Q. On that morning in early September, he told you 16 that he was taking lithium and Prozac; is that right? 17 A. Correct. 18 Q. And that he was afraid that his condition was 19 permanent, this manic depressive condition and that he would 20 not be able to go back to work; correct, sir? 21 A. Correct. 22 Q. And he seemed upset about this; is that right? 23 A. Yes, sir. 24 Q. Now, on this meeting on that morning did he seem 25 different to you? Was he acting in any way different? 139 1 A. Yes, sir. Because he didn't really see or was 2 thinking like there was a solution or something could be done. 3 Q. Did he seem desperate on September 5th? 4 A. I would say he couldn't see a way out of it; 5 yes, sir. 6 Q. Before that, on September 5th, had he ever 7 seemed -- expressed that he couldn't see a way out of his 8 problems? 9 A. No, sir. Because even when he had talked about 10 his disability might even be cut, I had mentioned to him about 11 a lawyer, talking to them or something, he was open-minded. 12 Q. You characterized there being that your father 13 was upset and that it seemed to be urgent that he give you 14 this information; is that right? 15 A. Yes, sir. 16 Q. All right. Is it also true that your dad seemed 17 upset and concerned about this, but at this time started 18 expressing that, "Jimmy, this may be what's wrong with you. 19 I'm real concerned that you get checked out on this"? 20 A. Yes, sir. 21 Q. All right. And then isn't it true that he went 22 to your doctor twice after that or just once? 23 A. Well, once after that. 24 Q. All right. And at that time you were given 25 lithium? 140 1 A. Yes, sir. 2 Q. And your dad was glad you were on lithium? 3 A. Yes, sir. 4 Q. He said he thought this might help you; right? 5 A. Correct. 6 Q. He said, in fact, let's go get it filled right 7 now? 8 A. Yes, sir. 9 Q. Did your dad ever suggest that you take Prozac? 10 A. He suggested it; yes, sir. 11 Q. Did he explain to you then in September that he 12 thought it was good medicine? 13 A. Well, I don't really remember him saying that he 14 felt better or worse, but he said he thought it may be 15 something to help me. 16 Q. But your doctor didn't put you on Prozac, did 17 he? 18 A. No, sir. 19 Q. Did your dad on that morning around September 20 5th, tell you that he was beginning to have trouble 21 communicating with you or felt like he was beginning to have 22 trouble communicating with you? 23 A. Well, he didn't really come out and say it. 24 Basically, I had to kind of ask him because it just seemed 25 like whatever he was trying to say I wasn't understanding, and 141 1 he kind of felt like that I wasn't listening anyway. 2 Q. Was this something usual or unusual? 3 A. Unusual. 4 Q. At that time I believe you characterize in your 5 deposition, Mr. Wesbecker, that your dad told you he had 6 recently begun having trouble sleeping; that he was recently 7 having trouble keeping on the same subject and recently was 8 having racing thoughts; is that right? 9 A. Correct. 10 Q. Did you observe that at that time? 11 A. Yes, sir. I began observing that. 12 Q. And did they appear to you as different or 13 changing circumstances than what you had seen in your dad 14 before? 15 A. Yes, sir. It was different than before. 16 Q. Tell the jury in what way it was different. 17 A. It was different in the way that let him be who 18 he was, basically. He wasn't really the same person 19 emotionally or he wasn't as giving, because he was always a 20 giving person, joke -- joking around, being a person that was 21 funny or just quick wit, and he didn't have that. 22 Q. All right. You testified in your deposition 23 that this was the first time you had noticed these changes of 24 racing thoughts and keeping on the same subject in your 25 father; is that right? 142 1 A. Yes, sir. 2 Q. Is that still true? 3 A. It's still true. 4 Q. That on that morning that you noticed that your 5 father seemed overly energetic and he was hyper, his speech 6 pattern was very fast and he seemed to have an urgency to want 7 to talk to you; is that right? 8 A. Yes, sir. That is correct. 9 Q. Is this later on that you expressed that? 10 A. You mean later on than the 5th? 11 Q. Than September 5th when you first learned about 12 the Prozac? 13 A. Yes, sir. It was later. 14 Q. When is this now, is this when you went to the 15 doctor? 16 A. I think it was about a couple days afterwards, 17 somewhere around that same time. 18 Q. All right. Give the jury some detail about 19 that. 20 A. You mean the trip in the car? 21 Q. Yeah. 22 A. Okay. Basically since he was a driver and I was 23 a passenger I was free to look around a little bit more, but 24 he was just rambling on, and I didn't have a chance to say 25 anything, any words at all, you know, my thoughts sometimes. 143 1 And usually he'll get in his point, but then he'll sit back to 2 wait to see what you say, kind of easygoing. He was never one 3 to be so pushy, and it was just difficult relating to him that 4 morning. 5 Q. Pushy and not as easygoing? Is that what you 6 said? 7 A. Yes, sir. 8 Q. Did you have some conversations at McDonald's 9 also during that early period in September? Is that right? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Okay. Tell the jury about those conversations 12 and if they were different from what you had had earlier. 13 A. Okay. Basically we always went to McDonald's 14 just to have breakfast. Since he was picking me up early for 15 classes I told him I would spring for the breakfast or 16 something, and a lot of the times he didn't have a sense of 17 humor when I was trying to joke around with him. He wasn't 18 keeping up with the same interests that we had always had, it 19 was like sports. I would even talk to him about some of the 20 stuff in the money markets or interest rates, and, you know, 21 he just wasn't there with me. Sometimes he was way behind me; 22 other times he was way ahead of me, but he never had the same 23 interest or the same level of topics. 24 Q. Had you ever seen that in your dad before, 25 Kevin? This is important. Had you ever seen this kind of 144 1 change in personality before this? 2 A. No, sir. 3 Q. Are you sure about that? 4 A. I'm positive. 5 Q. Did this appear to be a difference in mannerism 6 or did this appear to be a difference in just total outlook? 7 In what way was there a change? 8 A. It was both, manner and, you know, outlook. I 9 mean, it was a way that he might dress that you would see him 10 actually physically, you know. 11 Q. How was he differently dressed? 12 A. A lot of times he would go out, his hair wasn't 13 combed, wear a T-shirt and blue jeans, that's good enough, and 14 Dad never did that. He was a person who prided himself in 15 always being dressed nice, going out and being presentable. He 16 always had a smile on his face. You hardly ever see him 17 smiling. As far as his manner, he didn't have that I guess 18 easy kind of coasting type of mannerism. He was either trying 19 to push it or feeling like there was no solution or answer to 20 this problem. 21 Q. Did this seem different to you that all of a 22 sudden he was expressing in mid September no answer to his 23 problems? 24 A. Yes, sir. Because he's the one that always 25 taught me that, you know, no matter how it is, since I was 145 1 going through a lot with my problem, that he said, you know, 2 you don't give up, there's always some person there to help 3 you. 4 Q. He told you when? 5 A. All the time. 6 Q. Did he ever tell you, don't give up, there's 7 always somebody to help you with your problems after -- in 8 September 1989 at all? 9 A. No, sir. 10 Q. Was he less encouraging to you then than he had 11 been before? 12 A. He was less supportive. 13 Q. Well, but he gave you $70,000 on September 10th, 14 1989, didn't he? 15 A. Yes, sir. 16 Q. But you didn't know that, did you? 17 A. No, sir; I didn't. 18 Q. You didn't know that on September 11th, he had 19 been in his psychiatrist's office weeping, either, did you? 20 A. No, sir; I didn't. 21 Q. Expressing anger and agitation, did you? 22 A. No, sir; I did not. 23 Q. You didn't know that Doctor Coleman had 24 suggested hospitalization at that time, either, did you? 25 A. No, sir. 146 1 Q. You didn't know that Doctor Coleman had 2 suggested discontinuing the Prozac because Doctor Coleman 3 indicated it might be the cause of the deterioration, did you? 4 A. No, sir. 5 Q. When you talked to your dad on September 13th, 6 tell the jury in detail what occurred that day, starting from 7 the time he picked you up, dropped you off at school, to the 8 time he -- that first morning. First, let's do the morning. 9 Okay. 10 A. Okay. When he picked me up at 8:30, the usual 11 time, and we went to the McDonald's right there at University 12 of Louisville. We were going to talk about some plans that we 13 had been discussing about graduate school, and I had some 14 letters I wanted to show him that I had been accepted to N.C. 15 State, and he didn't know that yet. And that's basically how 16 the morning went. We talked. He was overexcited, wanting to 17 see how we could get things set up and get things going right 18 away. 19 Q. Was that different? 20 A. Yeah. Because usually he would be more 21 cautious. He would be more like, "What about the other 22 schools. Is this the only school there is for you to make 23 sure you get the right education." And he didn't voice any of 24 those concerns. 25 Q. All right. 147 1 A. And then from there, everything was normal. We 2 just drove over to school and he let me go, and I saw him 3 again when he picked me up about three, three-thirty. And I 4 believe that's the day when I told him that I needed another 5 manual for class and he got real agitated and he looked kind 6 of, you know, like he just woke up. And so he stopped the car 7 immediately, dug in, gave me the money, and then he drove over 8 and got the manual that I needed. From there, he didn't 9 really talk to me at all on the way home. And when I asked 10 him about it, he just said something about being tired. So I 11 let it go and I heard from him again that evening about 12 nine-thirty. And he seemed fine that, you know, he seemed 13 like he was kind of happy again and he was apologizing for 14 that, you know, earlier that day being so short and stuff. 15 But everything on the phone then seemed, I was thinking, you 16 know, well, you know, back to form, you know. 17 Q. Had you ever seen your dad in that type of 18 roller -- what appears to be roller-coaster emotional trip? 19 A. Not in such a short time; no, sir. No, sir; I 20 hadn't. 21 Q. Was this the last conversation that you had with 22 your dad? 23 A. Yes, sir. And he was supposed to pick me up at 24 8:30 that following morning. 25 Q. Tell the jury what happened that last morning. 148 1 A. Well, I was ready, you know, waiting for him. 2 And it got to be 8:30, and as soon as it was just about a 3 minute after or something, I knew something was wrong because 4 he's never late. He's always on time. And I called and 5 called, didn't get any answer over at the house on Blevins Gap 6 because he was sleeping there that night and I was wondering 7 where could he be. It was raining, I thought maybe with him 8 he could have had a wreck. So I called Brenda at her work and 9 she didn't know anything about it. She said he had already 10 left by the time that she had gotten up. And then I called my 11 grandmother and said, "Can you just drive me to school so I 12 can drop my paper to turn in and then we've got to look for 13 Dad." And Brenda said she went over to the other house they 14 had over there on Nottoway and no car there, nothing. And so 15 at school, that's when I started hearing on the news about 16 what was happening and then that's when I just came on home. 17 Q. You heard it on the news? 18 A. Uh-huh. 19 Q. Had your dad been identified at that time that 20 you heard it on the news? 21 A. They hadn't released a name or anything, but 22 just being down at Standard Gravure, I knew some of the people 23 down there. You know, I was just wondering what was going on. 24 And then later on I did hear, you know, on the news that's how 25 he was identified. 149 1 Q. Well, how were you told that it was your dad 2 that had committed these acts at Standard Gravure? 3 A. Basically, my Uncle Johnny came to U of L and he 4 walked around the campus till he found me, and then he picked 5 me up and took me home. 6 Q. Had your father ever been violent -- 7 A. No, sir. Never. 8 Q. -- toward anybody that you knew of before this? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Is there any way you could characterize him as 11 an individual that would have done this kind of act before 12 this? 13 A. No. I mean, as far as I was concerned, he was 14 incapable of that kind of act. 15 Q. Did you have any perception that any mental 16 illness that he had would have caused him to do this? 17 A. Sir, when I was -- 18 MR. STOPHER: Objection to the medical 19 conclusion, Your Honor. 20 JUDGE POTTER: Overruled. 21 A. From what I was told -- 22 MR. STOPHER: Objection to the hearsay then. 23 JUDGE POTTER: Sustained. Rephrase your 24 question, Mr. Smith. 25 Q. Did your observation of your dad before he 150 1 started Prozac, let's say from August 15th, 1989, give you any 2 warning that he would do this? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Even with this agitation and restlessness and 5 racing thoughts, did that give you any kind of hint that your 6 dad would do this? 7 A. No, sir. 8 Q. Did you have any warning whatsoever that your 9 dad was considering even suicide for himself? 10 A. No, sir. 11 Q. Did you take this deeding of the house to 12 Brenda, this planning of the funeral, this executing of this 13 will, did you take that, Jimmy, as some sign of imminent death 14 on your dad's part? 15 A. No, sir. He was very thorough. He always kept 16 up with things and wanted to make sure things were taken care 17 of. 18 Q. Did you take this as any sign of imminent or 19 pending violence on his part? 20 A. No, sir. 21 Q. Did you ever see your dad do an evil act? 22 A. No, sir. 23 Q. Any way you would characterize your dad as an 24 evil man? 25 A. No, sir. 151 1 Q. Do you to this day feel that your dad was an 2 evil man planning and plotting a mass murder? 3 A. No, sir. 4 Q. That's all I have. Thank you, Mr. Wesbecker. 5 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Stopher? 6 MR. STOPHER: Your Honor, I think I just have 7 one question. 8 9 FURTHER_EXAMINATION _______ ___________ 10 11 BY_MR._STOPHER: __ ___ _______ 12 Q. Mr. Wesbecker, with regard to the trip to school 13 on September 13, 1989, sir, let me ask you if you recall 14 giving this testimony in your deposition. Page 428, Line 1, 15 "Question: What else did you talk about on the 13th on the 16 way to school? 17 "Answer: Basically that was about all I can 18 remember. 19 "Question: How was he that day? 20 "Answer: He seemed more down than anything. 21 "Question: Seemed a little bit down? 22 "Answer: Yes. Like when we were talking he was 23 kind of slow. I had to pull things out of him a little, so 24 that's why I didn't push any conversation. 25 "Question: Everything else the same about him? 152 1 "Answer: His appearance seemed all right. 2 "Question: How was he dressed on the 13th? 3 "Answer: Kind of just blue jeans. He had a 4 shirt on and his hair was a little messed up. 5 "Question: Did he drive all right? 6 "Answer: Yes, he drove fine. 7 "Question: Otherwise, he was the same as he had 8 always been? 9 "Answer: I guess so." 10 Is that testimony still accurate, sir? 11 A. Partially. 12 Q. That's all. Thank you, sir. 13 14 FURTHER_EXAMINATION _______ ___________ 15 16 BY_MR._SMITH: __ ___ _____ 17 Q. What part is not accurate, Mr. Wesbecker? 18 A. The part that when I first met him and he picked 19 me up he was a little down, but when I showed him the letter 20 that I got accepted, that's when he began to really brighten 21 up and want to talk a little more and stuff. But until I 22 showed him that letter, no, he didn't want to talk. 23 Q. But his hair was messed up? 24 A. Yes. And he had a T-shirt and blue jeans. 25 Q. But then he called later that night and 153 1 apologized? 2 A. Yes, sir. 3 Q. And that's the last time you talked with your 4 dad? 5 A. Yes, sir; it was. 6 Q. That's all I have. 7 JUDGE POTTER: Thank you very much, sir. You 8 may step down; you're excused. 9 Ladies and gentlemen, as I had mentioned to 10 you-all before, this weekend recess is really going to be a 11 week recess. Okay? So you-all can enjoy Turkey Day. So 12 because my schedule has changed we're going to go 9:00 Monday 13 morning, May 28th, all right? That was a test to see if you 14 were listening. We've talked about my secretary over the week 15 organizing the boxes, not your things that you give to Marsha 16 and she locks up, but the other boxes. And my sheriff gave me 17 a list of the people and they were just numbers and, believe 18 it or not, I think of you-all as names and not numbers at this 19 point. So would the people that -- regardless of whether you 20 gave my sheriff your number or not -- that would like -- I 21 think what I've got is a list here of who they are. Would the 22 people who would like my secretary to go through your box -- 23 and I think what she's going to do is just kind of get some 24 folders and kind of put them in folders -- raise their right 25 hands and let me see if that matches up with what I've got? 154 1 All right. So Mr. Bailey in the first row 2 doesn't, right, that's the only one in the first row. Oh, Ms. 3 Ryan, I've still got you on my chart in the second row because 4 of the swap. Let's get the hands up in the second row. And 5 in the last row just Ms. Williams. All right. What I'm going 6 to ask you to do just to double-check that there's no mistake, 7 everything has your names on it. Would those of you that do 8 not want your box organized, you'll see some big rubber bands 9 back there, red rubber bands. Just put it in the box and that 10 will be a double-check. I want you to understand my secretary 11 is not going to read anything. She's not going to tell me 12 anything. She's just going to go in there and try and read 13 numbers and try and put things in order. 14 I'm going to give you the same admonition. Oh, 15 first, Ms. Morrison, would you check with your doctor, because 16 my secretary has been dealing with them this morning to see if 17 they can move it up to either Monday, Tuesday or Wednesday of 18 next week? 19 JUROR MORRISON: I can try. 20 JUDGE POTTER: She's been working on it and 21 certainly people are there on Thursday and not there on 22 Friday. So you'll be gone by the time she finds out what 23 happens, so will you check with them maybe late this afternoon 24 and talk with them next week, all right? 25 JUROR MORRISON: Yes, sir; I will. 155 1 JUDGE POTTER: One other thing. I'm going to 2 give you the same admonition I've given you before about 3 letting other people communicate with you about this case, and 4 I emphasize that it applies to absolutely everybody. I'm not 5 really worried about anybody that has some connection with 6 this case talking with you about the case. I think you-all 7 will take care of the newspaper and whatnot and the TV 8 yourself. What I am concerned about is the holiday weekend 9 because you're going to be around your family and friends and 10 they're wanting tp know what's going on. You know, "Oh, come 11 on, Uncle Joe or Aunt Jane," or whatever. 12 And there's nothing wrong with this, but one of 13 you has had a friend here that's been watching the trial from 14 in the courtroom. There's nothing wrong with that. This is a 15 public proceeding, everyone has the right to come. I just 16 emphasize your friends or your families, probably someone 17 that's been there watching the trial, there will probably be a 18 temptation on that person's part and that person may not 19 appreciate, and certainly your family and friends won't 20 appreciate the importance over the Thanksgiving weekend. 21 You've just got to be ugly about it. If somebody bothers you, 22 just tell them you have to be that way about it. I know 23 you-all are not ugly people, but it's real important because 24 we've put a lot of time in this and you-all have, too, and you 25 don't want to have it messed up because of some inadvertent 156 1 thing or doing something you didn't think would make much 2 difference. 3 I have a list here. I wished you a Happy Turkey 4 Day. Do not permit anyone to speak to or communicate with you 5 on any topic connected with this case, including friends, 6 family or other members. Do not discuss it among yourselves 7 and do not form or express any opinions about it. I will see 8 you November 28th at 9:00. 9 (JURORS DISMISSED; HEARING IN CHAMBERS) 10 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Stopher has marked his 11 November 18th letter and apparently he plans to call witnesses 12 in the order they're set out there, and he's estimated for the 13 Plaintiffs how far he thinks he'll get each day. Of course, 14 he may go faster or slower. He's also marked the ones he 15 intends to call by deposition with Doctor Senler being he 16 doesn't know yet. Here, Ms. Zettler, you can have that. 17 Let me say one other thing, and you may want to 18 think about this and we'll take it up. There's still open the 19 issue of whether Mr. Rakow has got any evidence that's 20 relevant to this case; I think we need to probably address 21 that Monday. Also, there is an issue and what I want to do is 22 just tell you-all my thoughts on it so that, you know, the 23 objection isn't made. I don't know who some of these people 24 are, but like Wednesday or Thursday on the people that are 25 security experts, it's my understanding from what I've read in 157 1 Kentucky that employer has no duty -- and I realize it's 2 evolving around the country and I haven't looked into it 3 completely, but the employer has no duty to protect his 4 employees from the illegal acts of other people unless he has 5 some warning or knowledge that there's an attack coming, and 6 then he has the duty to take reasonable steps to protect them. 7 And if I'm right in that or that is the standard, I'm unclear 8 as to what experts on how you run a security service or how 9 you protect a plant have to do with this case. Because as the 10 guy said yesterday, you could put tanks outside. I mean, 11 there is a level that you buy or get. And this person can 12 come in and testify, and I haven't read their depositions, I 13 just read the expert disclosures, and come in and say you 14 should have cameras at every entrance or you should have a 15 guard at every entrance or whatever level they come out with. 16 And that might be true if you're a plant owner and you want a 17 certain level of protection, but I'm uncertain at this time 18 that the law requires you to give any particular level of 19 protection to your employees. 20 Am I making myself clear? It's kind of the idea 21 that the law level is down here. You know, on a scale of one 22 to ten the law only requires you to do a Number Two, and these 23 people are coming in and testifying, well, if you want to get 24 a Six or a Seven or an Eight this is what you have to do or 25 this is the best way to do it or whatever. And I'm not saying 158 1 I've made up my mind because I haven't. Sometimes I have made 2 up my mind; on this one, I haven't. But I see an issue there, 3 and what I don't want to do is everybody run up on it Thursday 4 night. And I know Mr. Stopher's instructions put a lot more 5 burden on Standard Gravure than that, but the memo that went 6 with them isn't a lot of citation to it. And so I just wanted 7 to put that on the table as to where I'm thinking, and so that 8 when we do run up on the issue, people have the best 9 information for me that they can get. 10 MR. STOPHER: Okay. 11 JUDGE POTTER: And I don't say that to ruin 12 anybody's holiday. I don't know how to say it. A doctor, 13 you've got to get the operation. It would be like saying you 14 had an obligation to run a clothing store. Well, clothing 15 stores run all the way from the Salvation Army to Bacon's to 16 Jacobson's on top. And the law doesn't say running a clothing 17 store you have to be at any particular level, although it does 18 say, and this I'm sure, is if the employer has information 19 about threats or a threat, that they have to tell or protect 20 the employee. And it may just go in on -- I don't know. 21 That's where I am. 22 MR. STOPHER: Judge, I think there is a lot of 23 law on it. I haven't responded now because I don't think you 24 want me to respond now. I just want you to understand that by 25 not arguing the matter now I'm not in any way indicating that 159 1 it is not a matter that we're not prepared on and ready. 2 There is a good deal of law on it and I'll be glad to give it 3 to you at the appropriate time. 4 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. And you can even give it 5 to me ahead of time and I'll read it. 6 MR. SMITH: For planning purposes it looks like 7 this may be all the witnesses for the Defendants. 8 MR. STOPHER: I think I may have some more. I 9 think this is pretty close to it, but I do want to have the 10 right to say I may want to add some more, but, yeah. 11 MR. SMITH: If we run through these people we're 12 going to be getting close to the end is what you're saying? 13 MS. ZETTLER: So we can set up our rebuttal case 14 if we have one. Can you give us by the middle of this week 15 after Thanksgiving whether or not you're going to have any 16 more? 17 MR. STOPHER: Again, depending on how close I do 18 on estimating this stuff. Some people are short and longer 19 than others. 20 MS. ZETTLER: A few days before you're going to 21 finish your case. 22 MR. STOPHER: I think it will be obvious to 23 everybody. 24 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Foley, what has happened with 25 the deposition in Atlanta? 160 1 MR. FOLEY: It's scheduled to go on the 30th of 2 November. 3 MR. SMITH: We couldn't get it done next week. 4 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. 5 (PROCEEDINGS TERMINATED THIS DATE AT 12:58 P.M.) 6 * * * 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 161 1 STATE OF KENTUCKY )( )( Sct. 2 COUNTY OF JEFFERSON )( 3 I, JULIA K. McBRIDE, Notary Public, State of 4 Kentucky at Large, hereby certify that the foregoing 5 Transcript of the Proceedings was taken at the time and place 6 stated in the caption; that the appearances were as set forth 7 in the caption; that prior to giving testimony the witnesses 8 were first duly sworn; that said testimony was taken down by 9 me in stenographic notes and thereafter reduced under my 10 supervision to the foregoing typewritten pages and that said 11 typewritten transcript is a true, accurate and complete record 12 of my stenographic notes so taken. 13 I further certify that I am not related by blood 14 or marriage to any of the parties hereto and that I have no 15 interest in the outcome of captioned case. 16 My commission as Notary Public expires 17 December 21, 1996. 18 Given under my hand this the__________day of 19 ______________________, 1994, at Louisville, Kentucky. 20 21 22 23 24 _____________________________ 25 NOTARY PUBLIC 162 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25